Sompi: also, I'm surprised tulospalvelu.vaalit.fi hasn't been "improved" yet. one of the most usable sites I've ever seen

njsg: Yle's election result site is completely unusable. JavaScript crap where even scrolling is in many places prevented by CSS and you cannot see the list of the elected

And of course it only works on Chrome and Firefox

for some reason that scroll prevention seems to be a common thing nowadays and often seems that the developers themselves don't even know why they do it

njsg: saavutettavuusvaatimukset.fi/fi/yle…kaisia-uutisia-saavutettavuudesta-1

seems that aluehallintovirasto made them change the Finlex site, although they couldn't specify what exactly was wrong with the old site

They just said that the old site was "not accessible enough" and apparently they think that the new site is 100% good

The new site is worse and has quirks on all browsers...

And no-one ever specified what were the problems with the old site's accessibility

So it's almost always the "accessibility"

The website is not "accessible" if it is pure HTML and just works deterministically on every device

Then they make a new and shiny JavaScript version with random quirks and bugs that is only compatible with a limited set of browsers, and it is considered "accessible"

paste.dy.fi/8RY/plain <- any examples of those tier 2 browsers?

tier 3*

dam, we're only a tier 4 browser?

thats disappointing

why would it be ordered this way

also why are we on par with safari?

who wrote this up

there is a tier 3 but.. no examples

wait, Tier 5 is actually Chrome/FF

> Every web developer, who knows what they’re doing, probably has a ”tier list” of different browsers in their mind, and understands what web technologies are supported by each tier of browsers

that's blatantly false

even those that know what they're doing only care about Chrome, PERIOD

and maybe Safari, if they own a iPhone

because everything makes them feel "ooolld and aged"

---everything else

Wouldn't that mean the only tier 1 browsers are chrome and safari?

Then firefox

as tier 2

then everyone else somewhere around tier 10

No this is bullshit

no one cares about text-only browsers for practical means of getting shit done.. under that structure... the structure of getting shit done.. you have the corperate service monoculture and you have us and unfortently still including MCP and Alex .. and you have mobile browsers which are almost exclusiely monoculture

so it is still just Corperate Service Monoculture and the rejected, the alternate, and the corrupted

Product vs Project

I prefer Projects

something to work on long term and make better for all and inspire the same.. hopefully.. PRODUCTS tho are just time limited time sinks for MONEY

one way or another

hi nsITobin. Wrist better?

halfway

i just ate a box of shells and chemicals pretending to be cheese

as long as not leaded shells :)

tomman: I'm talking about developers who actually know what they are doing. Sadly most developers nodaways are incompetent and they don't.

I'm writing a text about the change that happened about ten years ago in web development, when most professional web developers suddenly started to target only tier 5 browsers

But I need examples for tier 3 browsers that are currently actively maintained

And clearly SeaMonkey is tier 4 because it doesn't support the most latest chromeisms, and so is Safari

Sompi: please don't create this extracomplicated teir system people can't follow... there are only 2 teirs.. corperate service monoculture and everyone else and safari is NOT on par with us

it's whatwg or nothing

and will be until it collapses

or is endrun by a more extreme organization

just like how they started

Of course tier 5 is monoculture but other browsers can also be divided into different tiers based on what they support

yeah and I am saying it is irrelevant to even mention anything older than Tycho

Those lower-tier browsers were never meant to support everything but just ten years ago most websites still were browseable on them

no one targets text browsers

no one is going to target text browsers

I remember that most Finnish news websites were usable on lynx just ten years ago...

Then suddenly something changed and now they are unusable even on tier 4 browsers

Of course the developers didn't exactly target lynx but they wrote the webpages in such way that it worked

it is a waste of time to constantly re-evaluate a mass shift over a decade after the fact .. it no longer matters to anyone.. and has no practical use .. all that matters is what we have and what THEY are trying to push

Browsers like lynx do have practical use

They are simple, they work on any hardware and they don't have much attack surface

well browsers like lynx won't help stop tyranny or collapse

I used lynx for banking before OP removed their "PDA" version of the online bank and replaced it with the "accessible" version that only works on Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome and Safari

They even added a JavaScript browser check that prevents using the service if the browser is not in the list of allowed browsers

And somehow they call that "accessibility"

this is crap i was bitching about in 2014 and 2012 and 2010 and 2008.. I am fast approching not caring about the past because anything worth preserving or having is already open source, had leaked, or was reverse engineered.

It seems that every time the new site, that is declared more "accessible" than the old one, is actually much worse from the accessibility standpoint, and somehow the majority of people just don't notice it even though the problem should be obviously visible

We have already peaked in our worthwhile technical evolution .. we are NOW in a collapse.. Deal with it.

my way is TRYING to create alternatives and somehow by any means inspire or provoke people into otherwise doing something as well because NO ONE WILL SAVE US and anyone trying from these companies that created these issues is just another scam

You want lynx and teir 4 and lower(higher?) teirs to be relevant.. then we need to go bigger

form a standards body deeming its self into authority and declairing what the ACTUAL world wide web and internet of protocols IS and WHO is complying

The lower the tier number, the more secure the browser tends to be

I am bold enough to START such a thing but me my self alone in 2025 cannot sustain such an effort by my self..

ST-DOS needs a web browser!

Sompi: Also your tiers are inverted

At least by English conventions

i indicated that

it's an overcomplication of irrelevant factors not applicable to most techies let alone every day users

And to double up on Tobin again, there are two tiers, maybe 3.

all they need to know is Corperate Service Monoculture and.. the rest.

1. Chrome and Safari. Safari because it's common on macs and the only choice on iOS

2. Firefox. Maybe you test against this

3. Everything else. If the website works you're lucky and we make no guarantees

firefox isn't special anymore

why make a distinction

monoculture or anything else

it's simple and ACTUALLY true

Because some places actually do test against and support Firefox

Just not ESR

The push towards monoculture also generally started ten years ago, everywhere

No website I know if considers not working in ESR or any alternative browser a bug

know of*

Sompi: no sir

Now even the most popular Linux distributions like Debian only support very few hardware targets, and they used to support dozens

it has always been that way

See Internet Explorer

Now they are even killing x86

only reason Firefox took off was IE6 lagged for years unchanged

and once IE7 happened

nsITobin: The non-microsoft world used to be much more diverse

Mozilla Corp happened

and the same old shit started all over again

Now everything just wants to force the users into using one standard platform that is also a moving target

So you need to constantly buy new shit

Sompi: again its ALWAYS been that way.. the DOJ shit was an aboration and IE6 winning and getting complacent was an aboration..

the MOMENT mozilla started being the mozilla we know it was cut off early

suite and thunderbird got thrown out

etc

No, computers clearly were more diverse

Windows was only a thing for IBM PC compatibles and there were also other platforms, Linux and BSD usually supported them all

1999, Internet Explorer, Opera, Netscape, on Windows Mac and Unix

Now everything is 64-bit x86 and UEFI crap or some non-standard ARM stuff

2005 Edge, Chrome, Firefox on Windows Mac and Linux

err

2025

it's the same

I'm talking about hardware

well laptops netbooks and tablets set the stage for ipads and iphones which fed back and ruined desktop software and the web as we knew it

shortcutting decades of public indoctrination to technology for cat videos vibrating their balls on slabs of glass

and one wonders why tech is so fucked today?

and why the world is so overcomplicated but not much mroe advanced than 10-20 years ago

and why everything fucking up makes people angry some angry enough to become a maga nazi?

yeah well

don't tell me safari is merely the same group as seamonkey

Artifical divisions and conflated grouping

Sompi: that is the problem WORLD WIDE.

applies to virtually every big issue in the world.. an artifical division or some conflated association or grouping with something else

Technological diversity is good for freedom, but we need common standardized protocols and file formats to be able to interact between different computer platforms

and that is something that will have to be reimplimented .. after more things collapse.

but we can't have it right now

That's how things used to be, even though Microsoft had an unfair dominance in the world of IBM PC compatibles

You could easily use some relatively exotic computer as a daily driver and probably even install some popular Linux or BSD distro to it

No.. I could not.

I wouldn't be able to afford such hardware. I won't be able to afford hardware when this system which is largely from 2018 fails..

I think the argument is supposed to be more from the like 2005-2010 era where you could trash pick some weird alpha decstation nobody cares about, install debian on it, and have a perfectly usable computer web browser included.

Back then you could use a dumpster-dived computer as a daily driver. Now you cannot do anything with it, even web browsing is too much for it

Tekk: Yes

You can still trashpick computers but the software moves forward so fast that nothing works anymore

Mhm.

again this won't continue forever

it isn't sustainable

Technological monoculture is never sustainable

THe whole point of it is to be unsustainable. Everyone is forced to buy new shit until the world becomes devoid of resources

but we have never had a global IT systems fuckup of the kind we are approching as more reliable tested systems and software are swapped out or worse slaved to the newer shit by people who don't understand what they are doing

think y2k but actually happens with our current day level of digital interconnectedness

Televisions used to last 30 years, stationary phones also. And even mobile phones lasted for at least five years and cost a fraction of what they cost now. Nowadays everything last at most two years and need to be replaced

just make peace with the fact the world and life as you have become accustom to is one trump moodswing or one update away from being upended and decimated

Cars used to last 30 years and they were serviceable. Now they are disposable after five years and spare parts aren't manufactured anymore

I say tear it all down..

all of it

start again

but i say that because its the most likely outcome.. if modern computer tech collapses the best we can do on a small group scale is perhaps 16bit systems and maybe 32bit

That's exactly why I made ST-DOS

no post-collapsed group will be able to manufacture modern day hardware

The tech system is going to collapse. China occupies Taiwan and it's over

Of course it's not a total collapse because we can still make simpler 16-bit computers elsewhere, but those need software

Sompi: well how can I get started doing a graphical environment for your dos system?

I need win3.1 ux minimum

lol

Everything that is compiled with Watcom for 16-bit DOS target should work

nsITobin: Wow, needlessly hating on GEM

Sadly most DOS programs do stupid stuff with MS-DOS specific kernel internals so they don't work

I wrote a graphical desktop system for it but it still has some bugs that cause it to crash

It seems to be relatively stable when the user doesn't do anything so the crashes are probably related to window creation or I/O interrupt handling

And I'm currently testing a new development version that should be more stable

when I use windows 10.. or windows 7.. or win2k.. I am really just using Windows 3.1

I wonder how late you can do that.

Iirc until like....XP SP2 Windows shipped with program manager

And I think you could just copy it from an old install and set it as your shell for a while after

yeah but it was slightly gimmed

gimped

cause it couldn't operate in shell mode

that was factored out of win2k program manager even when SET as the shell

i need a linux program manager

I believe there is one

Sec

and it would unfortently have to be done in qt cause qt has mdi ..

no that window manager is crap

it has no multimonitor awareness and so minimising stuff goes off screen.. it doesn't actually HAVE program manager but a right click menu .. and its window decorations are hardcoded to be a million pixels by a million pixels like it was designed for a tablet and gross linux fingers

Oh I see now

yeah

i was upset

very upset

cause there is no reason why it can't be a windows 3.1 window manager even without the ability to have a program manager window

openbox could be modified to fill such a role and if i wrote a small program to hook the taskbar icons i could put em on the desktop .. i'd just need to also allow passthrough for openbox menu

on a more practical level i am gonna have to plan and set limits of what I impliment.. i keep trying to do everything at the same time and haven't gotten far cause of my hands this past week so i think i need more structure in my planning

"supply chain"

before the pandemic had that phrase ever shown up in regards to software?

because I seriously can't remember it being used outside literal sailing ships before 2020

I definitely remember talk about supply chain attacks before 2020.

well it is dumb

thatt isn't how software works

nsITobin Lets see how long this lasts on github :)

It makes sense by analogy I think. At least how it used to be used.

Haven't read that article

ha

frg:

so why doesn't everyone just have kmspico

frg: massgravel's stuff's been up for a long time

Because this one is even easier.

Tekk yes but this one is "nasty". You don't even need a kms or key for server or esu activation.

kmspico is a setup open click a button done

not sure how this is easier

Yeah when I've hypothetically done activations of windows for evaluation purposes with their tools it was literally just click on this script file. Do you want office? No, cool. You're activated.

KMS usually needs an internet connection to somewhere. This one is optinally local only.

I guess ms might care about that marginally since they can just shut down the server whenever they feel like it

Or honeypot it

microsoft accounts are how microsoft intends to lock windows down

just need to flip a flag to remove local non-domain authinicated accounts

If you are a business you probably won't do it anyway unless you want to be potentially sued for big money but still.

By and large MS loves people pirating Windows, because that's more people using Windows. They've said as much before.

Oh yeah, businesses they'll go after.

i used to love to pirate windows

But like, the OEM windows license on your laptop probably make microsoft $5

and betas

made*

after windows 7.. i didn't anymore

The good thing about the bios lic is that you can grab one off a dead mobo as long as the flash chip survived.

i used to slic when i had real bios

but after efi it was simpler to use kmspico

7 was slic 2.1. The later ones are server only. Currently 2.7 for 2025

nowadays the windows product key is usually hardbaked in the firmware image of the mainboard

so you cannot get rid of it if you have an UEFI PC

you cannot return Windows anymore

You can reflash the bios but it is a bit harder. I usually only grab it out of dead mobos. If you still can boot then showkey does the job.

did they ever update my digital activator for efi?

frg: you could even patch and force an slic'd bios on vmware

nsITobin or inject an slic in vbos

^vbox

The latest and greates 2.53.21b1 pre for Windows x64: seafiles.thereisonlyxul.org/nightly…025/04/2025-04-14-00-00-00-comm-253

Other languages on request.

for security reasons I am gonna clear out CCI User Accounts that have not been claimed. Just better to not have unused accounts and creating new ones is trivial.

gitlab wip updated. sync with 2.53

nsITobin really good to have your storage. Thanks again.

frg_Away: well it does beat dropbox at least

maybe not in scale but in .. it works..ness

by a mile

while I do typically hover more in the late 90s access model.. of not really having one.. on the INTERNET some additional precautions are needed

and now for some sleep. nn

well shit.. if frg was here he could have bbq chicken breast