00:04:44 and forcing my self to not shrug off what would be refered to as trivial mistakes 00:05:30 and bad judgement 00:08:23 at the tail end of the 2010s 01:44:19 welcome back tomman 02:49:18 https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions/UXP/issues/2693 02:49:33 Tracking issue for CF issues on rpmo 02:50:57 I learned them .. too well 04:41:36 clownflare strikes again 14:04:53 "Clownflare Siege, Day 46" 14:05:18 the latest HN thread cooled down even before warming up 14:07:16 in the meanwhile, the Clownflare Agent is hellbent at having their demands met - they're now demanding a timeline to implement some of the missing features 14:07:38 a timeline from MCP 14:07:39 lol 14:07:47 so far there hasn't been any approach to any of the other affected browsers, other than a vague promise of establishing a sort of "Trusted Browser" crapola program 14:07:57 it was a fuckin war to get a consistant release schedule 14:08:08 nsITobin: let's be realistic, no FOSS project like ours can get anywhere near a timeline 14:08:18 that's like asking cows to produce cheese 14:08:46 they may be able to pull it off but tehre would be fallout and consiquences if pushing that fast 14:08:49 and that's exactly what Clownflare is now demanding, because they firmly believe that any "concession" they make on our browsers will "weaken" their mafia product 14:09:02 again, a Ukraine vs. Trump situation 14:09:11 Don't 14:09:22 do not equate MCP with Ukraine 14:09:33 I'm bagging ALL OF US, not just PAle Moon 14:09:37 we're the victims here, remember? 14:09:44 Yeah 14:09:53 we have been for a long time 14:10:24 Anyway, the situation remains at a stalemate, and negotiations have proved to be a farce where Clownflare wants to keep their pie ANd eat it 14:11:26 But I think it is a trap. There is a narative that has been building past year that non-corperate backed open source cannot be trusted and the worth of a project is dependant on how many people contribute rather than output produced 14:11:49 yep, that's the Silly Con Valley mindset 14:12:00 where FOSS without a monetization path is basically Soviet malware 14:12:09 Pale Moon is not any kind of entity and the most hostile mozilla related group this side of NT6 14:12:20 i fear they will be played 14:12:21 and if your project is not backed by big VC capital, then it's irrelevant and should not be used, EVER 14:13:16 I find amusing that the latest stupid rumour there is "Apple will buy Ladybird eventually" just because the Ladybird dev uses Apple tech like Switft 14:13:47 that could be a self fullfilling prophacy tho 14:13:56 hype about it would get apple's attention 14:14:38 maaaaaaaaybe... in 10 years, when Ladybird becomes a relatively complete product? 14:14:50 i am sure apple is kinda over their hard stolen khtml code driving google and microsoft's control of web standards 14:14:55 but why Apple would ditch Webkit after pouring decades of manpower and billions of dollars on it? 14:15:26 why is mozilla dropping every Netscape and early Mozilla technology just line by line? 14:15:29 over a decade 14:15:31 and a half 14:15:32 ha, the complaint I hear usually is "Apple is holding the web back with Safari because it doesn't innovate as fast as Chrome" 14:16:06 (it doesn't indeed help the illegal MICROS~1-esque monopoly Apple has on their cellphones and non-computers with Safari) 14:18:51 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Theora-libtheora-1.2-Beta speaking about blasts from the past 14:27:13 I still think I caused this 14:27:16 all of it 14:27:21 the cloudflare stuff 14:28:10 when I went to the whatwg and told them at the end I would use a XUL Browser to endrun their standards body just like they did to the W3C.. and well XUL Browsers are specifically under attack across the board. 14:28:59 nah, Clownflare happened because they got blind by the Googlebux 14:29:16 yeah but this seige could be my fault 14:29:25 because all these companies conspire with each other 14:29:39 the standards are just a pretense 14:29:42 they just hate diversity (no, not the DEI one) because that's "extra work, yo" 14:29:47 it's the IE era all over again 14:30:09 except that Chrome is actually well liked because each release comes with new shiny toys for bored nerds 14:30:16 unlike IE which was basically medieval punishment 14:30:25 tomman: I am pretty sure that's what I said during some moments of lucity when I was still raging about .. everything 14:30:31 like in 2023 14:31:09 Basically the modern crop of webdevs see Chrome tech as the "eternal youth fountain" 14:31:16 and nothing else matters 14:31:41 it's like the web being the new OS (again because Chrome empowers that - Microsoft's approach with ActiveX was clearly the wrong one, and so it was Java) 14:35:04 these modern web devs have to deal with a very dark world out their window 14:37:19 gah I am running behind on things again... 14:56:02 uBlock Origin Legacy (uBO) security concerns 14:56:03 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32187 14:56:05 in there is mentioned UCyborg's fork that seemly has ported the fix over 14:56:07 (myself, i'll just live dangerously) 14:57:13 oh, & from what i recall, if i recall correctly ?, it does run in SeaMonkey 14:59:22 therube: and when was the last time someone checked if it STILL runs.. both UXP and 253 have breaking changes to extensions and it is difficult at best to target firefox and suite when it was on the same platform .. it may work MOSTLY but is it specifically cared for for seamonkey? That is what matters when it comes to Mozilla Extensions.. 15:00:24 certainly not specifically catered for SM... but if someone wants to try... 15:00:52 well it won't be me.. I'll fudge ABPrime over first 15:06:52 cloudflare, https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=260812#p260812 15:08:36 therube: we were discussing that earlier, but yeah, all I can see is a loooooooong stalemate 15:08:58 Clownflare is not really willing to give us some margin, are they? 15:09:14 > Note that we may need to instrument anonymised aggregate traffic analytics for the PM UA as it is likely that bot developers would start leveraging this in nefarious ways. 15:09:19 it's all because The Bots™ 15:09:48 (in the meanwhile you routinely see bot makers at Hackernews saying they can easily bypass all and any of Clownflare's antibot crapola) 15:13:35 yeah I noticed that 15:14:08 also, the Clownflare dude really contradicts himself 15:14:17 "no, we don't rely on user agent strings to identify browsers" 15:14:20 "yes, we actually do" 15:14:23 "no, not really" 15:14:28 "but we may need to collect data" 15:21:37 well he is doing ok on not being completely unreasonable and the community is doing a decent job backing up and supporting what is said while getting a jab in every so often.. But Moonchild's biggest weakness is he is not prepared for a long term showdown.. Eventually he may cave for an easier path for Just Them(tm) or break and play into the stratagy I think is at play. 15:23:02 if his fanfic skills start showing on what he is telling the community.. we will know.. 15:26:00 and there is where we should enter 15:26:11 because once Clownflare is done chewing him, it's our turn next :/ 15:27:54 Moonchild will have to step up and be the leader he so desperately wants to be which means looking out for more than your own shit.. This I believe is his test.. He has had more than enough time for some form of de-tobinization and retains every last benefit of it.. He has new contributors and the community seems on the same page.. what he DOES with it will determine a lot about the future.. 15:31:57 Hi all. uBlock 1.16.6.0 is fine. Just updated from his previous beta. 15:32:13 cool 15:33:07 I usually test this and NoScript. If it were not for NoScript we would have more more backports but hold off. Wish someone would fork it. I applied some private fixes for obsolete stuff so far. 15:35:13 As for clownflare. Can we stop the discussion. It goes nowhere and becomes pointless. I rather would like to discuss SeaMonkey shortcomings or possible enhancements. Best if soneone even does them :) 15:36:07 oh,that reminds me 15:36:10 how about pdf.js? 15:36:25 does anyone have a newer compatible version I can install here? 15:36:43 is it an extension or a toolkit component? 15:36:43 I've been finding some PDFs that fail to render at all lately, including real ancient stuff from the mid '90s 15:37:13 but then I'm using the final public release of a fork that just turned... what, five years old? 15:37:35 I'm amazed at the fact it still works without the need for fixes 15:38:14 which fork 15:38:39 https://github.com/IsaacSchemm/pdf.js-seamonkey this one 15:39:05 In theory we have newer code in our tree. I wanted to look into it for ages but... 15:39:46 well this things should be on a list somewhere 15:41:20 yes in the meeting notes 15:41:33 for integrated pdf.js of course the normal fe code but also shellservice needs updated to be aware it is a target for pdfs 15:42:07 if i recall correctly hooks in content handler shellservice and glue 15:42:10 are needed 15:48:40 of course Mozilla handled it in a very strange way unlike any other previous or future bundled extension 15:58:47 this extension is nothing like the code in-tree 15:59:24 i am confused here 16:01:12 yes was adapted to SeaMonkey with some stuff. One of the reasons we can't just bundle the integreted stuff 1:1 16:01:41 oh 16:01:56 this shit is node generated then wrapped with a pseudo-extension 16:02:02 okay that makes sense 16:02:13 ... so why didn't they just keep it like the code in browser? 16:02:28 Wanted to look into it for ages but it not something I personally want anyway so it gets moved to the next meeting and the next and .... 16:02:43 I prefer opening suff in an external pdf reader. 16:02:48 same 16:06:09 I don't understand how this node abomination produces a mozilla extension 16:08:48 tomman: do you know anything about this? 16:12:11 i don't think there is a way to gut and maintain this simpler .. someone is gonna have to lrn how to maintain this thing and conduct more backports