> Instead of actually continuing the discussion though, CF went radio silent until sending me an overly broad and generic form-NDA document to sign on Friday at 6pm (through Adobe docusign) without any further explanation, context or personal outreach from Michael, with the NDA apparently put up for signing by someone else within CloudFlare -- of course that will mean it'll be at least again...

...another week until anything happens in terms of even talking, let alone having a solution for CloudFlare still blocking our access.

did you expected something else?

Clownflare WANTS YOU to go away

you, me, and everyone else deemed "navigator non grata" by the Clownflare Browser Junta

well, back to Hackernews again

they're now playing NDA Hardball '25, how lovely

...now I want that game on my Sega Genesis

doesn't matter

Moonchild is UNFIT to do this

SEAMONKEY should be leading this charge

Tell me.. do you think in 2021 i could have been able to negotiate this without fucking it up.. hell i couldn't convince anyone on 52 to go UXP .. Moonchild is even WORSE and that doesn't even count the depths he has sunk to since then.

and seeing as he hates SeaMonkey cause seamonkey didn't want him shipping binaries with their branding.. SOUNDS FAMILAR.. i am sure if a backroom deal is made SeaMonkey will not get the same special treatment.

Moonchild has always maintained if it came down to selling out Pale Moon (not counting side hussles like power ranger coins) he would destroy it. He better hold to that as it has been one of his few consistant positions.

eh, don't overstimate our abilities

this is Clownflare we're talking about

we're Ukraine, they're Trumputin

they can and will nuke us with a single move, unless we get EXTERNAL (read: legal, goverment) help

the NDA-as-gag-order move was completely expected from them

I maintain even if Cloudflare came to their senses .. Moonchild will find some way to fuck it up..

too bad we are nowhere near the EU :/

you're in Trumpistania, and I'm at Soviet Venezuela

if Moonchild was the fucking solution I'd still be there and SeaMonkey would be a Unified XUL Platform application.

wow, this 3-minute ramen turned out to be stupidly spicy

so would waterfox

and Pale Moon

...the packet lied

and Borealis

and Interlink

and we would all have add-ons and wikis and infra and all counterbalance our impulses for the best of everyone and beyond..

but that isn't the way it happened.

and couldn't be ignored

"Every interaction I've ever had with CloudFlare has left me feeling like I needed a bath. The vertical desperately needs some competition but I don't know how that could happen at this point."

a bath with turpentine at the very least, indeed

(from the HN thread)

my issues with cloudflare stem first and foremost from trying to create an active and always up to date error free php system for add-ons while behind cloudflare and moonchilds damnedable filterules

the censorship

came later

so in no way do or can I ever like, use, or support cloudflare even if they were just the reverse proxy cache they pretended to be to take over most of the internet since most of the internet is just the web now plus a few old and insecure and legacy protocols

every point i might find a use for them is basically invalidated by the issues they cause

my hateboner towards Clownflare is the same as any tech monopoly that gets in my way

and oh boy, they have been getting in my way (and then some!) in the last 2 years!

i am also extremely conserned

all because "the Internet is under attack and you could be a foe"

Remember: thanks to Clownflare I was THIS CLOSE of losing my only good credit card

(because the bank deployed that shit on their site... and that complaint didn't went well)

remember elon and the doge teenagers are techies and "smart" the news stories i been seing lately is priming a VERY dangerous thing.. These smart techies fuck people and people are told that.. can you complete this fear?

tomman:

In my case it gets combined with the fact of living at an actual communist hellhole

if my government doesn't kill me, Big Tech will cripple me instead

yay

so here

now

Not a single window binaries?

I'd like to see both x64 installer and zip regularly if possible

thanks

IceCold10_: in nightlies? it's not being automated yet

we're working on it

well they are and I am standing by with whatever I have that can cheat the timelag imposed by CLOOOUUD.

there's a big gray one over here, want it?

yes we need rain time to burst... that cloud

:P

you do see now how the cloud was always a literal metaphore right.. we evaporate our money out into the system.. but then the clouds stopped raining returning that benefit to consumers .. money in money out .. but not much money out and the cloud grows and grows and grows until it is a storm and then a superstorm.. and that storm will blow anyone down and wash them away.. and I just need a little digital silver iodide and we can sort this..

Does Moonchild have the silver iodide? I think not.

and I don't.. soo

never mix weather and computer tech terms.. You'll attract Tobins and if it ain't up to snuff...

Good morning njsg :)

njsg: yes, nightlies. Thanks

hope it'll be soon

IceCold10_: if you are on winders frg has offered to make a build.. As can I.. if you need a linux build i can adhoc one up too if you specifically need it

just for the record: x64 zip and installer en-US lang

I don't want specific builds for me

nsITobin: there's a whole bunch of names that somehow make things a bit more difficult: rust and gold, for example, are fun to search for. There's also a "document preparation system" that may return unexpected results or even trigger some "filters"...

I prefer to get ones from nightlies, when I have time to do my tests

so windows standard .. if you have enough resources you could do it.. I have time to walk you through it if you'd like

but thanks anyway

nsITobin: I can't do it

older system?

thanks for the good will

no. I don't want to start looking what went wrong/ why, only because I forgot something

I don't build online software

awe well it CAN be a lot of fun but I do understand.

fun? that was when some IRC friend offered to "walk me throu" installing arch

that was the last for me

(lisp probably causes some search confusion, scheme I can guess might be confusing as the sole word too, but I guess one might search for RnRS too)

why are you going this close: look at Oracle/ Dephy etc...\

it used to be Mythology

IceCold10_: well building mozilla code may seem like a mess .. because it is.. but there remains enough structure and sanity (or some off brand substitute for sanity) in there that it is mostly managable ;)

which is why you guys are handling it

kudos

and it won't leave you without an OS like installing arch over irc lol

it didn't

I was smart enough to use VM

but I learnd, a lot and a lesson

i often practice in a VM for system level stuff first

bless the invention of VirtualBox

eww

(okay, maybe it was better when it was created)

njsg: some configurations and setups virtualbox works the best other times its kvm or vmware

I like vmware my self.. or .. LIKED it past tense

its free now

or was, a year ago

yes I know

but .. the new owners

now does their owner know more about virtualization than they do about WLAN networking?

i doubt it

its broadcom, right?

any change made to vmware has merely made it worse and taken features away

IceCold10_: yes

and dropped hwcompat

as if no one would EVER use vmware to run legacy windows

there was a lot of talk about their business model

like that isn't one of vmware's cheif top quality advantages

nsITobin my advise would be to just bury the hatchet. He can continue with Pale Moon as he sees fit. Just continue doing what you like. The constant bickering would not change anything and is just waste of time imho.

which basically meant their customers had to find a new product

honestly, I'd be more worried about the business model of VirtualBox's owner

better than vbox better than kvm better than microsoft them selves

I don't think I've actually ever tried vmware

its slick but heavy

I don't like it

sleek?

frg_Away: you're right but if he fucks this up for all of us.. I am PARTLY to blame.. Pale Moon is in this position because of ME

I don't know how to NOT feel responsible for their actions in the position I helped them achieve..

nsITobin it won't affect us. Mozilla going out of business would but not Pale Moon. We could contonue without mozilla but would need more devs. Again I rather enhance the code instead of worrying or making it a clash between good and evil :) For clownflare it is just business and for mozilla survival in case google money dries up.

again you are right and it does seem I have explcitly not been invited to said clash.. doesn't it.. eh maybe I'll crash it at the end.. There is code to improve first.

heh hg still doesn't work on edge

I need to find that patch that picks up version*.txt automagically and port it to SeaMonkey and also port remove THUNDEBRIRD_VERSION and SEAMONKEY_VERSION to 253 which I may start today after I finish the m-c top patch for pkgversion

Just I have given u being a firebrand does not mean I like it how the www goes down :) I usally vote with my money or in case of incompatible sites not visting them if not really needed. I am also doing without google services. There is still much choice. But SeaMonkey code needs to be enhanced for sure.

nsITobin check Bug 1952760. I am also doing a central port for the first part and will rebase you patches. Just wait a day till I have checked in stuff.

this is the 253 version?

oh well there we go lol

yes

IanN and I usally let the patches end with 253xx if 2.53 repo. I usually use cc or nothing for central

We usually review the 2.53 patch and then I/we rebase for checkin.

part 4 of 1652288 took care of remaining bits from 1816266

including SEAMONKEY_VERSION

on central

I am not sure we should remove the rdf files. They are useless but if we ever do it right they need to be converted to webext manifests. Modern is probably finished then but something for the future if ever.

i dunno how they are handling skins right now

so i followed Thunderbird

The locales rdf might be dead in 2.53 already. Not sure. Language packs are webext now there.

I also don't think the default theme HAS a manifest any longer or its some build artifact generated

i know the mozilla skin name was hardcoded to classic/1.0

Yeah but this part would be needed/left for a proper conversion bug.

so would you want me to revise part 4 of 1952288 to seperate out SEAMONKEY_VERSION and just drop removing the rdfs for now?

cause I DO enjoy doing things properly or more properly if the option is there ;)

nsITobin let me rebase first and then we can see. The path traversal stuff ../ and the topdir cleanup is something I would really like in 2.53 too. Artifacts when comm was top dir long ago.

well I am the one to talk to about the comm build system or lack there of .. been moving stuff in and out of comm and all over for years now lol

but I am also perfectly willing to do seperate versions for 253 and cc of stuff if it seems like the best way to deal with it and go back and redo any temporary shortcuts put in.. If you want to bring proper into it ;)

I think that is important anyway as it keeps options open

this patch landing is annoying on central.. bugzilla.mozilla.org/783526 even more language strings the suite won't reply for a platform component WHICH mailnews core is considered codewise..

won't supply*

gitlab 2.53 updated

language strings are a problem on central cause any patches will ONLY be additive for fluent strings it won't be migrationbased as mozilla did it and may impact the current use for 253 translation

nsITobin the fluent strings could usually be backported into properties/dtd. We already support flunet but needs more work. 2 components in 2.53 already use it.

^fluent

I have a potental idea how to work around that but it would break with mozilla tradition .. just keep newer fluent stuff seperate from older l10n

wait we have fluent?

in 253?

yes

basic fluent files are identical to js property files but then they added pythonic parsing to recreate what DTD already does for free

its a pseudo scripting language

is it a goal to move to fluent strings tree wide frg_Away

eventually but needs more backports. Task 9997

what is the advatage to using fluent directly in seamonkey 253?

none until dtd and properties are removed in pontoon. Just code alignment with mail and browser till then. Not a prioriy for sure.

wouldn't a conversion make more sense?

not something I lost sleep over. Too many othetr construction sites :)

I am just having a hard time figuring out what SeaMonkey actually wants to keep

cause fluent is incompatible with mozilla extensibility

and xul technology

not as in can't be done

but doesn't account for it properly and no backports will do that

For now xul extensions and full themes and the current functionality.

it has to be MADE compatible

cna you even access non .properties .dtd from the locale chrome package?

it SOUNDS like what seamonkey;s final form intends to be is Thunderbird before they redesigned everything plus their hacks for bootstrap.js extensions

and skins hacked back in

cause they preserved functionality for a long time internally tho mutating it constantly until after 102

After 68 it did go downhill. But even in 60 stuff like bootstrapping was removed. I would like to keep it. Finally also support web ext more but this is a moving target with the manifest versions. My first goal is web compat right now.

the xbl divide must be conquored

thunderbird already made a suitable tree element replacement.. thunderbird created the hacks waterfox uses today to make them look like something special when they aren't they are adclick traitors.. and thunderbird converted the customizabletoolbar binding so it can be used instead of australis

all that remains is suite bindings

no other change is as devistating save multiprocess

multiprocess would be needed for webrender but I doubt I will see this in this life

well even if it isn't used I pretty much HAVE to conquor it to prove nothing Mozilla does is beyond my understanding even if its a simple binding conversion .. trivial even.. have to do it ;)

Cause Mozilla may be able to socially exclude me with technology but they shall not be allowed to exclude me from a code perspective. They don't have the right.

gitlab central updated

nsITobin just pushed to central and rebased your Bug 1952288 patches. Doing a build right now but compared old and new config.status and checks out.

I think part 1 to 3 are good and I would give them r+. Part 1 is missing a comment about the removed moz updater.

I would split up part 4. themes rdf removal into a new bug as part 1. I would push then and keep it open for wheneven we fix themes.

traversal and %s subst into a new bug also for 2.53

leaves the moz configure change and the locales rdf removal for part 4.

lmk what you think

sounds good to me

add comment to part 1, then split 4 between theme rdfs and traversal to seperate bugs

?

yeah

yes

do you want SEAMONKEY_VERSION split off as well or did you already do that when you rebased?

Nothing left. see bugs

Just pick part 4 in gitlab and split it

hopefully all what is needed but my build has not finsihed yet

the patch as pushed looks correct to me

yes as stated compared old and new config.status and then were identical. So hopefully nothing missing

that has been a shortcut I have used for a long time when doing build system stuff it has saved .. years

nsITobin my central build finished in about 60 minutes. Double compared to 2.53. Bloatfest :)

Gave the vm 32 GB

which rust?

stable 1.85

right with the ram bloat

Didn't check but 24GB was borderline before.

and 83 still uses NORMAL amounts of ram..

if rust persists doing this I am gonna conclude it is intentional

cause it is requiring double ram to build

the same code vs recent older version

nsITobin just saw that Bug 1635413 removed the locales rdf. I will just push the suite part to central so one file less to care about.

Already gone in 2.53 but forgotten in central

that isn't an issue its when Thunderbird touches suite but not consistantly or rolls stuff up and doesn't tell anyone they are doing it

nsITobin this one is on me

i don't see how

Only pushed it to 2.53 and 2.57

frg_Away: my patch on bugzilla for part one of 1952288 does indicate the bug about updater

the bug title is just confusing because all they did was remove specifing it which I originally maintained then removed because updater is enabled by default..

Move --disable-updater to python configure.

is a bad commit message

yeah need new glasses. Will steal review for part 1 to 3 from IanN_Away and push them later. Unless he is fast :)

leg gets a bit stiff so need to do some real life stuff not in front of monitor :)

part 1's bits should have been done by thunderbird last june or not rolled into their finalization patch

at all

my glasses are held together by glue

yay superglue~

Cyanoacrilate: keeping the world together... mostly

superglue for adhearence but expanding gorilla glue for toughness

so i look a bit silly.. i also act a bit silly too.. consistancy is key

had to buy some in a rush 2 days ago after 6 PM to fix that old dot matrix printer I bought

i am having a hard time finding regular superglue

one of the smoked plastic covers was broken and found the missing piece lingering inside the printer, and also the tape broke

they just have this superglue gel which works but requires you to hold it for a minute to bond

and that simply defeats the point of superglue

here we only have a single brand in stores: "Pega Loka 3" (dunno why the 3), made somewhere in China

it's not great, but gets the job done if you know the tricks

i'd hate to think press on nail glue is the only source of liquid superglue i can find

and yes, this is the one that demands you to press parts together for a minute for it to bond

and that can get messy if you don't have good grip

i have poor fine motorskills so working .. hands over period can be a problem

sometimes I wonder if I am communicating or have just refind beating a table to a fine art

then there comes the absolutely messy part: getting the remnants of cured glue out of your hands

(hope you didn't glued your fingers together!)

I end scraping my fingers against a bare cinderblock

frg_Away: part 3 is irrelevant for now

there is crap happening regarding updates and background tasks and the new browser update agent

on 1952288

thunderbid has switched to newer stuff i am not familar with

scrap it

part it out i guess

the bug cannot be completed as originally envisioned

frg_Away:

too many roadblocks

Mission failure.

So I am gonna ask this again what is the end goal for seamonkey?

what does seamonkey theoretically look like at the end?

following mozilla patches will only get you mozilla as they dictate if that is the end goal just with extras it is insane to continue trying on 253

i'd rather jump

get it over with

rust fluent no dtds no properties no plugins no binary xpcom modules chromeutils static registration .. why is seamonkey on this codebase if THAT is the end goal?

and of course xul custom elements are subject to webstandards for custom elements

so that becomes linked with webcompat

and you will need xul custom elements and latest customelements standards for webextensions

the web as a platform is inhearently incompatible with Mozilla as a platform. How much time do I have to waste before that is clear?

you are only allowed degrees

of such

what I need to know is what degree beyond "current features" and skins

cause current features and skins? well rss aside.. yeah 102 but better hurry all our asses to do it.. beyond that 115 but would need xpcom components moved to jsms first.. 128 need jsms moved to esmodules first..

the xbl divide seems to be the only ACTUAL sticking point beyond RDF which again thunderbird already created solutions for and waterfox uses them to this day

and Mozilla's WebComponents is based on rust and completely incompatible with XBL and requires its removal and be parted out to webcomponents

rust for the css bits

UXP's solution is likely not portable and even if it is would be incompatible with Mozilla's progression cause it is literally based upon a different path mozilla rejected

What are my instructions?

Ok guys.. I can either obey or give orders.. PICK ONE

cause to redo part 4 and make it compatible to be otherwise backported it needs done before my rewrite which pushes my rewrite further up the stack to who knows when.. and I am UNWILLING to work on the mangled build files if they are gonna stay mangled

and i have another issue

I can't do this stop and go switching on things I expect to do something have it completed and to be able to move on I can't manage several tasks on my own dependant on each other and the whims of external changes..

i hate this

you need a Mozilla.. i'll provide a mozilla until the very end i guess

even though I really don't want to emulate them anymore because I actually want to accomplish complete something

and what happened the last time

maybe I am just fundamentally incompatible with seamonkey development .. i can do the work but not the job.. gee that sounds familar

I'm gone for now.