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tomman
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tomman
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tomman> Instead of actually continuing the discussion though, CF went radio silent until sending me an overly broad and generic form-NDA document to sign on Friday at 6pm (through Adobe docusign) without any further explanation, context or personal outreach from Michael, with the NDA apparently put up for signing by someone else within CloudFlare -- of course that will mean it'll be at least again...
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tomman...another week until anything happens in terms of even talking, let alone having a solution for CloudFlare still blocking our access.
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tommandid you expected something else?
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tommanClownflare WANTS YOU to go away
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tommanyou, me, and everyone else deemed "navigator non grata" by the Clownflare Browser Junta
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tomman
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tommanwell, back to Hackernews again
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tommanthey're now playing NDA Hardball '25, how lovely
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tomman...now I want that game on my Sega Genesis
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nsITobindoesn't matter
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nsITobinMoonchild is UNFIT to do this
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nsITobinSEAMONKEY should be leading this charge
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nsITobinTell me.. do you think in 2021 i could have been able to negotiate this without fucking it up.. hell i couldn't convince anyone on 52 to go UXP .. Moonchild is even WORSE and that doesn't even count the depths he has sunk to since then.
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nsITobinand seeing as he hates SeaMonkey cause seamonkey didn't want him shipping binaries with their branding.. SOUNDS FAMILAR.. i am sure if a backroom deal is made SeaMonkey will not get the same special treatment.
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nsITobinMoonchild has always maintained if it came down to selling out Pale Moon (not counting side hussles like power ranger coins) he would destroy it. He better hold to that as it has been one of his few consistant positions.
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tommaneh, don't overstimate our abilities
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tommanthis is Clownflare we're talking about
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tommanwe're Ukraine, they're Trumputin
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tommanthey can and will nuke us with a single move, unless we get EXTERNAL (read: legal, goverment) help
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tommanthe NDA-as-gag-order move was completely expected from them
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nsITobinI maintain even if Cloudflare came to their senses .. Moonchild will find some way to fuck it up..
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tommantoo bad we are nowhere near the EU :/
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tommanyou're in Trumpistania, and I'm at Soviet Venezuela
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nsITobinif Moonchild was the fucking solution I'd still be there and SeaMonkey would be a Unified XUL Platform application.
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tommanwow, this 3-minute ramen turned out to be stupidly spicy
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nsITobinso would waterfox
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nsITobinand Pale Moon
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tomman...the packet lied
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nsITobinand Borealis
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nsITobinand Interlink
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nsITobinand we would all have add-ons and wikis and infra and all counterbalance our impulses for the best of everyone and beyond..
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nsITobinbut that isn't the way it happened.
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nsITobinand couldn't be ignored
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tomman"Every interaction I've ever had with CloudFlare has left me feeling like I needed a bath. The vertical desperately needs some competition but I don't know how that could happen at this point."
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tommana bath with turpentine at the very least, indeed
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tomman(from the HN thread)
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nsITobinmy issues with cloudflare stem first and foremost from trying to create an active and always up to date error free php system for add-ons while behind cloudflare and moonchilds damnedable filterules
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nsITobinthe censorship
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nsITobincame later
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nsITobinso in no way do or can I ever like, use, or support cloudflare even if they were just the reverse proxy cache they pretended to be to take over most of the internet since most of the internet is just the web now plus a few old and insecure and legacy protocols
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nsITobinevery point i might find a use for them is basically invalidated by the issues they cause
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tommanmy hateboner towards Clownflare is the same as any tech monopoly that gets in my way
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tommanand oh boy, they have been getting in my way (and then some!) in the last 2 years!
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nsITobini am also extremely conserned
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tommanall because "the Internet is under attack and you could be a foe"
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tommanRemember: thanks to Clownflare I was THIS CLOSE of losing my only good credit card
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tomman(because the bank deployed that shit on their site... and that complaint didn't went well)
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nsITobinremember elon and the doge teenagers are techies and "smart" the news stories i been seing lately is priming a VERY dangerous thing.. These smart techies fuck people and people are told that.. can you complete this fear?
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nsITobintomman:
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tommanIn my case it gets combined with the fact of living at an actual communist hellhole
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tommanif my government doesn't kill me, Big Tech will cripple me instead
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tommanyay
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nsITobinso here
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nsITobinnow
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IceCold10_Not a single window binaries?
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IceCold10_I'd like to see both x64 installer and zip regularly if possible
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IceCold10_thanks
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njsgIceCold10_: in nightlies? it's not being automated yet
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nsITobinwe're working on it
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nsITobinwell they are and I am standing by with whatever I have that can cheat the timelag imposed by CLOOOUUD.
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njsgthere's a big gray one over here, want it?
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nsITobinyes we need rain time to burst... that cloud
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nsITobin:P
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nsITobinyou do see now how the cloud was always a literal metaphore right.. we evaporate our money out into the system.. but then the clouds stopped raining returning that benefit to consumers .. money in money out .. but not much money out and the cloud grows and grows and grows until it is a storm and then a superstorm.. and that storm will blow anyone down and wash them away.. and I just need a little digital silver iodide and we can sort this..
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nsITobinDoes Moonchild have the silver iodide? I think not.
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nsITobinand I don't.. soo
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nsITobinnever mix weather and computer tech terms.. You'll attract Tobins and if it ain't up to snuff...
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nsITobinGood morning njsg :)
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IceCold10_njsg: yes, nightlies. Thanks
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IceCold10_hope it'll be soon
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nsITobinIceCold10_: if you are on winders frg has offered to make a build.. As can I.. if you need a linux build i can adhoc one up too if you specifically need it
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IceCold10_just for the record: x64 zip and installer en-US lang
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IceCold10_I don't want specific builds for me
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njsgnsITobin: there's a whole bunch of names that somehow make things a bit more difficult: rust and gold, for example, are fun to search for. There's also a "document preparation system" that may return unexpected results or even trigger some "filters"...
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IceCold10_I prefer to get ones from nightlies, when I have time to do my tests
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nsITobinso windows standard .. if you have enough resources you could do it.. I have time to walk you through it if you'd like
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IceCold10_but thanks anyway
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IceCold10_nsITobin: I can't do it
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nsITobinolder system?
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IceCold10_thanks for the good will
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IceCold10_no. I don't want to start looking what went wrong/ why, only because I forgot something
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IceCold10_I don't build online software
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nsITobinawe well it CAN be a lot of fun but I do understand.
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IceCold10_fun? that was when some IRC friend offered to "walk me throu" installing arch
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IceCold10_that was the last for me
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njsg(lisp probably causes some search confusion, scheme I can guess might be confusing as the sole word too, but I guess one might search for RnRS too)
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» njsg sets n to 5
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IceCold10_why are you going this close: look at Oracle/ Dephy etc...\
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IceCold10_it used to be Mythology
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nsITobinIceCold10_: well building mozilla code may seem like a mess .. because it is.. but there remains enough structure and sanity (or some off brand substitute for sanity) in there that it is mostly managable ;)
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IceCold10_which is why you guys are handling it
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IceCold10_kudos
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nsITobinand it won't leave you without an OS like installing arch over irc lol
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IceCold10_it didn't
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IceCold10_I was smart enough to use VM
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IceCold10_but I learnd, a lot and a lesson
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nsITobini often practice in a VM for system level stuff first
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IceCold10_bless the invention of VirtualBox
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njsgeww
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njsg(okay, maybe it was better when it was created)
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nsITobinnjsg: some configurations and setups virtualbox works the best other times its kvm or vmware
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nsITobinI like vmware my self.. or .. LIKED it past tense
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IceCold10_its free now
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IceCold10_or was, a year ago
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nsITobinyes I know
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nsITobinbut .. the new owners
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njsgnow does their owner know more about virtualization than they do about WLAN networking?
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nsITobini doubt it
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IceCold10_its broadcom, right?
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nsITobinany change made to vmware has merely made it worse and taken features away
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njsgIceCold10_: yes
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nsITobinand dropped hwcompat
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nsITobinas if no one would EVER use vmware to run legacy windows
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IceCold10_there was a lot of talk about their business model
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nsITobinlike that isn't one of vmware's cheif top quality advantages
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frg_AwaynsITobin my advise would be to just bury the hatchet. He can continue with Pale Moon as he sees fit. Just continue doing what you like. The constant bickering would not change anything and is just waste of time imho.
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IceCold10_which basically meant their customers had to find a new product
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njsghonestly, I'd be more worried about the business model of VirtualBox's owner
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nsITobinbetter than vbox better than kvm better than microsoft them selves
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njsgI don't think I've actually ever tried vmware
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IceCold10_its slick but heavy
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IceCold10_I don't like it
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IceCold10_sleek?
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nsITobinfrg_Away: you're right but if he fucks this up for all of us.. I am PARTLY to blame.. Pale Moon is in this position because of ME
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nsITobinI don't know how to NOT feel responsible for their actions in the position I helped them achieve..
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frg_AwaynsITobin it won't affect us. Mozilla going out of business would but not Pale Moon. We could contonue without mozilla but would need more devs. Again I rather enhance the code instead of worrying or making it a clash between good and evil :) For clownflare it is just business and for mozilla survival in case google money dries up.
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nsITobinagain you are right and it does seem I have explcitly not been invited to said clash.. doesn't it.. eh maybe I'll crash it at the end.. There is code to improve first.
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nsITobinheh hg still doesn't work on edge
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nsITobinI need to find that patch that picks up version*.txt automagically and port it to SeaMonkey and also port remove THUNDEBRIRD_VERSION and SEAMONKEY_VERSION to 253 which I may start today after I finish the m-c top patch for pkgversion
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frg_AwayJust I have given u being a firebrand does not mean I like it how the www goes down :) I usally vote with my money or in case of incompatible sites not visting them if not really needed. I am also doing without google services. There is still much choice. But SeaMonkey code needs to be enhanced for sure.
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frg_AwaynsITobin check Bug 1952760. I am also doing a central port for the first part and will rebase you patches. Just wait a day till I have checked in stuff.
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nsITobinthis is the 253 version?
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nsITobinoh well there we go lol
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frg_Awayyes
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frg_AwayIanN and I usally let the patches end with 253xx if 2.53 repo. I usually use cc or nothing for central
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frg_AwayWe usually review the 2.53 patch and then I/we rebase for checkin.
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nsITobinpart 4 of 1652288 took care of remaining bits from 1816266
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nsITobinincluding SEAMONKEY_VERSION
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nsITobinon central
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frg_AwayI am not sure we should remove the rdf files. They are useless but if we ever do it right they need to be converted to webext manifests. Modern is probably finished then but something for the future if ever.
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nsITobini dunno how they are handling skins right now
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nsITobinso i followed Thunderbird
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frg_AwayThe locales rdf might be dead in 2.53 already. Not sure. Language packs are webext now there.
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nsITobinI also don't think the default theme HAS a manifest any longer or its some build artifact generated
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nsITobini know the mozilla skin name was hardcoded to classic/1.0
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frg_AwayYeah but this part would be needed/left for a proper conversion bug.
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nsITobinso would you want me to revise part 4 of 1952288 to seperate out SEAMONKEY_VERSION and just drop removing the rdfs for now?
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nsITobincause I DO enjoy doing things properly or more properly if the option is there ;)
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frg_AwaynsITobin let me rebase first and then we can see. The path traversal stuff ../ and the topdir cleanup is something I would really like in 2.53 too. Artifacts when comm was top dir long ago.
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nsITobinwell I am the one to talk to about the comm build system or lack there of .. been moving stuff in and out of comm and all over for years now lol
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nsITobinbut I am also perfectly willing to do seperate versions for 253 and cc of stuff if it seems like the best way to deal with it and go back and redo any temporary shortcuts put in.. If you want to bring proper into it ;)
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nsITobinI think that is important anyway as it keeps options open
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nsITobinthis patch landing is annoying on central.. bugzilla.mozilla.org/783526 even more language strings the suite won't reply for a platform component WHICH mailnews core is considered codewise..
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nsITobinwon't supply*
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frg_Awaygitlab 2.53 updated
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nsITobinlanguage strings are a problem on central cause any patches will ONLY be additive for fluent strings it won't be migrationbased as mozilla did it and may impact the current use for 253 translation
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frg_AwaynsITobin the fluent strings could usually be backported into properties/dtd. We already support flunet but needs more work. 2 components in 2.53 already use it.
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frg_Away^fluent
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nsITobinI have a potental idea how to work around that but it would break with mozilla tradition .. just keep newer fluent stuff seperate from older l10n
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nsITobinwait we have fluent?
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nsITobinin 253?
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frg_Awayyes
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nsITobinbasic fluent files are identical to js property files but then they added pythonic parsing to recreate what DTD already does for free
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nsITobinits a pseudo scripting language
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nsITobinis it a goal to move to fluent strings tree wide frg_Away
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frg_Awayeventually but needs more backports. Task 9997
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nsITobinwhat is the advatage to using fluent directly in seamonkey 253?
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frg_Awaynone until dtd and properties are removed in pontoon. Just code alignment with mail and browser till then. Not a prioriy for sure.
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nsITobinwouldn't a conversion make more sense?
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frg_Awaynot something I lost sleep over. Too many othetr construction sites :)
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nsITobinI am just having a hard time figuring out what SeaMonkey actually wants to keep
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nsITobincause fluent is incompatible with mozilla extensibility
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nsITobinand xul technology
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nsITobinnot as in can't be done
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nsITobinbut doesn't account for it properly and no backports will do that
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frg_AwayFor now xul extensions and full themes and the current functionality.
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nsITobinit has to be MADE compatible
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nsITobincna you even access non .properties .dtd from the locale chrome package?
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nsITobinit SOUNDS like what seamonkey;s final form intends to be is Thunderbird before they redesigned everything plus their hacks for bootstrap.js extensions
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nsITobinand skins hacked back in
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nsITobincause they preserved functionality for a long time internally tho mutating it constantly until after 102
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frg_AwayAfter 68 it did go downhill. But even in 60 stuff like bootstrapping was removed. I would like to keep it. Finally also support web ext more but this is a moving target with the manifest versions. My first goal is web compat right now.
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nsITobinthe xbl divide must be conquored
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nsITobinthunderbird already made a suitable tree element replacement.. thunderbird created the hacks waterfox uses today to make them look like something special when they aren't they are adclick traitors.. and thunderbird converted the customizabletoolbar binding so it can be used instead of australis
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nsITobinall that remains is suite bindings
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nsITobinno other change is as devistating save multiprocess
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frg_Awaymultiprocess would be needed for webrender but I doubt I will see this in this life
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nsITobinwell even if it isn't used I pretty much HAVE to conquor it to prove nothing Mozilla does is beyond my understanding even if its a simple binding conversion .. trivial even.. have to do it ;)
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nsITobinCause Mozilla may be able to socially exclude me with technology but they shall not be allowed to exclude me from a code perspective. They don't have the right.
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frg_Awaygitlab central updated
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frg_AwaynsITobin just pushed to central and rebased your Bug 1952288 patches. Doing a build right now but compared old and new config.status and checks out.
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frg_AwayI think part 1 to 3 are good and I would give them r+. Part 1 is missing a comment about the removed moz updater.
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frg_AwayI would split up part 4. themes rdf removal into a new bug as part 1. I would push then and keep it open for wheneven we fix themes.
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frg_Awaytraversal and %s subst into a new bug also for 2.53
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frg_Awayleaves the moz configure change and the locales rdf removal for part 4.
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frg_Awaylmk what you think
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nsITobinsounds good to me
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nsITobinadd comment to part 1, then split 4 between theme rdfs and traversal to seperate bugs
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nsITobin?
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nsITobinyeah
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frg_Awayyes
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nsITobindo you want SEAMONKEY_VERSION split off as well or did you already do that when you rebased?
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frg_AwayNothing left. see bugs
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frg_Away
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frg_Away
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frg_AwayJust pick part 4 in gitlab and split it
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frg_Awayhopefully all what is needed but my build has not finsihed yet
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nsITobinthe patch as pushed looks correct to me
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frg_Awayyes as stated compared old and new config.status and then were identical. So hopefully nothing missing
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nsITobinthat has been a shortcut I have used for a long time when doing build system stuff it has saved .. years
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frg_AwaynsITobin my central build finished in about 60 minutes. Double compared to 2.53. Bloatfest :)
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frg_AwayGave the vm 32 GB
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nsITobinwhich rust?
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frg_Awaystable 1.85
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nsITobinright with the ram bloat
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frg_AwayDidn't check but 24GB was borderline before.
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nsITobinand 83 still uses NORMAL amounts of ram..
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nsITobinif rust persists doing this I am gonna conclude it is intentional
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nsITobincause it is requiring double ram to build
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nsITobinthe same code vs recent older version
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frg_AwaynsITobin just saw that Bug 1635413 removed the locales rdf. I will just push the suite part to central so one file less to care about.
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frg_AwayAlready gone in 2.53 but forgotten in central
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nsITobinthat isn't an issue its when Thunderbird touches suite but not consistantly or rolls stuff up and doesn't tell anyone they are doing it
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frg_AwaynsITobin this one is on me
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nsITobini don't see how
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frg_AwayOnly pushed it to 2.53 and 2.57
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nsITobinfrg_Away: my patch on bugzilla for part one of 1952288 does indicate the bug about updater
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nsITobin
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nsITobinthe bug title is just confusing because all they did was remove specifing it which I originally maintained then removed because updater is enabled by default..
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nsITobinMove --disable-updater to python configure.
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nsITobinis a bad commit message
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frg_Awayyeah need new glasses. Will steal review for part 1 to 3 from IanN_Away and push them later. Unless he is fast :)
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frg_Awayleg gets a bit stiff so need to do some real life stuff not in front of monitor :)
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nsITobinpart 1's bits should have been done by thunderbird last june or not rolled into their finalization patch
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nsITobinat all
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nsITobinmy glasses are held together by glue
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tommanyay superglue~
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tommanCyanoacrilate: keeping the world together... mostly
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nsITobinsuperglue for adhearence but expanding gorilla glue for toughness
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nsITobinso i look a bit silly.. i also act a bit silly too.. consistancy is key
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tommanhad to buy some in a rush 2 days ago after 6 PM to fix that old dot matrix printer I bought
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nsITobini am having a hard time finding regular superglue
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tommanone of the smoked plastic covers was broken and found the missing piece lingering inside the printer, and also the tape broke
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nsITobinthey just have this superglue gel which works but requires you to hold it for a minute to bond
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nsITobinand that simply defeats the point of superglue
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tommanhere we only have a single brand in stores: "Pega Loka 3" (dunno why the 3), made somewhere in China
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tommanit's not great, but gets the job done if you know the tricks
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nsITobini'd hate to think press on nail glue is the only source of liquid superglue i can find
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tommanand yes, this is the one that demands you to press parts together for a minute for it to bond
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tommanand that can get messy if you don't have good grip
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nsITobini have poor fine motorskills so working .. hands over period can be a problem
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nsITobinsometimes I wonder if I am communicating or have just refind beating a table to a fine art
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tommanthen there comes the absolutely messy part: getting the remnants of cured glue out of your hands
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tomman(hope you didn't glued your fingers together!)
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tommanI end scraping my fingers against a bare cinderblock
29 minutes ago