01:03:43 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=32127 01:04:20 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=32127#p260689 01:04:58 > Instead of actually continuing the discussion though, CF went radio silent until sending me an overly broad and generic form-NDA document to sign on Friday at 6pm (through Adobe docusign) without any further explanation, context or personal outreach from Michael, with the NDA apparently put up for signing by someone else within CloudFlare -- of course that will mean it'll be at least again... 01:05:00 ...another week until anything happens in terms of even talking, let alone having a solution for CloudFlare still blocking our access. 01:05:05 did you expected something else? 01:05:14 Clownflare WANTS YOU to go away 01:05:31 you, me, and everyone else deemed "navigator non grata" by the Clownflare Browser Junta 01:05:39 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43376064 01:05:44 well, back to Hackernews again 01:08:00 they're now playing NDA Hardball '25, how lovely 01:10:48 ...now I want that game on my Sega Genesis 01:20:37 doesn't matter 01:20:44 Moonchild is UNFIT to do this 01:21:10 SEAMONKEY should be leading this charge 01:22:47 Tell me.. do you think in 2021 i could have been able to negotiate this without fucking it up.. hell i couldn't convince anyone on 52 to go UXP .. Moonchild is even WORSE and that doesn't even count the depths he has sunk to since then. 01:24:06 and seeing as he hates SeaMonkey cause seamonkey didn't want him shipping binaries with their branding.. SOUNDS FAMILAR.. i am sure if a backroom deal is made SeaMonkey will not get the same special treatment. 01:26:31 Moonchild has always maintained if it came down to selling out Pale Moon (not counting side hussles like power ranger coins) he would destroy it. He better hold to that as it has been one of his few consistant positions. 01:27:05 eh, don't overstimate our abilities 01:27:10 this is Clownflare we're talking about 01:27:19 we're Ukraine, they're Trumputin 01:27:35 they can and will nuke us with a single move, unless we get EXTERNAL (read: legal, goverment) help 01:27:57 the NDA-as-gag-order move was completely expected from them 01:28:33 I maintain even if Cloudflare came to their senses .. Moonchild will find some way to fuck it up.. 01:28:41 too bad we are nowhere near the EU :/ 01:28:56 you're in Trumpistania, and I'm at Soviet Venezuela 01:29:01 if Moonchild was the fucking solution I'd still be there and SeaMonkey would be a Unified XUL Platform application. 01:29:38 wow, this 3-minute ramen turned out to be stupidly spicy 01:29:38 so would waterfox 01:29:41 and Pale Moon 01:29:41 ...the packet lied 01:29:43 and Borealis 01:29:46 and Interlink 01:30:08 and we would all have add-ons and wikis and infra and all counterbalance our impulses for the best of everyone and beyond.. 01:30:13 but that isn't the way it happened. 01:31:08 and couldn't be ignored 01:31:57 "Every interaction I've ever had with CloudFlare has left me feeling like I needed a bath. The vertical desperately needs some competition but I don't know how that could happen at this point." 01:32:09 a bath with turpentine at the very least, indeed 01:32:24 (from the HN thread) 01:32:48 my issues with cloudflare stem first and foremost from trying to create an active and always up to date error free php system for add-ons while behind cloudflare and moonchilds damnedable filterules 01:33:13 the censorship 01:33:16 came later 01:34:14 so in no way do or can I ever like, use, or support cloudflare even if they were just the reverse proxy cache they pretended to be to take over most of the internet since most of the internet is just the web now plus a few old and insecure and legacy protocols 01:34:35 every point i might find a use for them is basically invalidated by the issues they cause 01:36:16 my hateboner towards Clownflare is the same as any tech monopoly that gets in my way 01:36:28 and oh boy, they have been getting in my way (and then some!) in the last 2 years! 01:36:47 i am also extremely conserned 01:36:56 all because "the Internet is under attack and you could be a foe" 01:37:13 Remember: thanks to Clownflare I was THIS CLOSE of losing my only good credit card 01:37:30 (because the bank deployed that shit on their site... and that complaint didn't went well) 01:37:34 remember elon and the doge teenagers are techies and "smart" the news stories i been seing lately is priming a VERY dangerous thing.. These smart techies fuck people and people are told that.. can you complete this fear? 01:37:36 tomman: 01:37:58 In my case it gets combined with the fact of living at an actual communist hellhole 01:38:09 if my government doesn't kill me, Big Tech will cripple me instead 01:38:11 yay 01:38:22 so here 01:38:24 now 11:32:29 Not a single window binaries? 11:32:53 I'd like to see both x64 installer and zip regularly if possible 11:32:54 thanks 11:49:23 IceCold10_: in nightlies? it's not being automated yet 11:50:14 we're working on it 11:53:40 well they are and I am standing by with whatever I have that can cheat the timelag imposed by CLOOOUUD. 11:54:31 there's a big gray one over here, want it? 11:54:56 yes we need rain time to burst... that cloud 11:54:58 :P 11:57:45 you do see now how the cloud was always a literal metaphore right.. we evaporate our money out into the system.. but then the clouds stopped raining returning that benefit to consumers .. money in money out .. but not much money out and the cloud grows and grows and grows until it is a storm and then a superstorm.. and that storm will blow anyone down and wash them away.. and I just need a little digital silver iodide and we can sort this.. 11:58:02 Does Moonchild have the silver iodide? I think not. 11:58:14 and I don't.. soo 12:00:31 never mix weather and computer tech terms.. You'll attract Tobins and if it ain't up to snuff... 12:01:10 Good morning njsg :) 12:03:15 njsg: yes, nightlies. Thanks 12:03:21 hope it'll be soon 12:05:13 IceCold10_: if you are on winders frg has offered to make a build.. As can I.. if you need a linux build i can adhoc one up too if you specifically need it 12:05:25 just for the record: x64 zip and installer en-US lang 12:05:59 I don't want specific builds for me 12:06:10 nsITobin: there's a whole bunch of names that somehow make things a bit more difficult: rust and gold, for example, are fun to search for. There's also a "document preparation system" that may return unexpected results or even trigger some "filters"... 12:06:21 I prefer to get ones from nightlies, when I have time to do my tests 12:06:22 so windows standard .. if you have enough resources you could do it.. I have time to walk you through it if you'd like 12:06:26 but thanks anyway 12:07:21 nsITobin: I can't do it 12:07:36 older system? 12:07:43 thanks for the good will 12:08:26 no. I don't want to start looking what went wrong/ why, only because I forgot something 12:08:36 I don't build online software 12:09:02 awe well it CAN be a lot of fun but I do understand. 12:09:32 fun? that was when some IRC friend offered to "walk me throu" installing arch 12:09:38 that was the last for me 12:09:54 (lisp probably causes some search confusion, scheme I can guess might be confusing as the sole word too, but I guess one might search for RnRS too) 12:10:14 * njsg sets n to 5 12:10:39 why are you going this close: look at Oracle/ Dephy etc...\ 12:10:47 it used to be Mythology 12:10:55 IceCold10_: well building mozilla code may seem like a mess .. because it is.. but there remains enough structure and sanity (or some off brand substitute for sanity) in there that it is mostly managable ;) 12:11:22 which is why you guys are handling it 12:11:25 kudos 12:11:28 and it won't leave you without an OS like installing arch over irc lol 12:11:40 it didn't 12:11:50 I was smart enough to use VM 12:12:13 but I learnd, a lot and a lesson 12:12:16 i often practice in a VM for system level stuff first 12:12:37 bless the invention of VirtualBox 12:12:45 eww 12:12:58 (okay, maybe it was better when it was created) 12:13:12 njsg: some configurations and setups virtualbox works the best other times its kvm or vmware 12:13:23 I like vmware my self.. or .. LIKED it past tense 12:13:33 its free now 12:13:38 or was, a year ago 12:13:43 yes I know 12:13:50 but .. the new owners 12:14:03 now does their owner know more about virtualization than they do about WLAN networking? 12:14:16 i doubt it 12:14:26 its broadcom, right? 12:14:28 any change made to vmware has merely made it worse and taken features away 12:14:36 IceCold10_: yes 12:14:40 and dropped hwcompat 12:14:49 as if no one would EVER use vmware to run legacy windows 12:14:51 there was a lot of talk about their business model 12:15:10 like that isn't one of vmware's cheif top quality advantages 12:15:11 nsITobin my advise would be to just bury the hatchet. He can continue with Pale Moon as he sees fit. Just continue doing what you like. The constant bickering would not change anything and is just waste of time imho. 12:15:15 which basically meant their customers had to find a new product 12:15:27 honestly, I'd be more worried about the business model of VirtualBox's owner 12:15:30 better than vbox better than kvm better than microsoft them selves 12:16:05 I don't think I've actually ever tried vmware 12:16:19 its slick but heavy 12:16:28 I don't like it 12:16:39 sleek? 12:16:45 frg_Away: you're right but if he fucks this up for all of us.. I am PARTLY to blame.. Pale Moon is in this position because of ME 12:18:05 I don't know how to NOT feel responsible for their actions in the position I helped them achieve.. 12:20:08 nsITobin it won't affect us. Mozilla going out of business would but not Pale Moon. We could contonue without mozilla but would need more devs. Again I rather enhance the code instead of worrying or making it a clash between good and evil :) For clownflare it is just business and for mozilla survival in case google money dries up. 12:23:35 again you are right and it does seem I have explcitly not been invited to said clash.. doesn't it.. eh maybe I'll crash it at the end.. There is code to improve first. 12:26:53 heh hg still doesn't work on edge 12:30:19 I need to find that patch that picks up version*.txt automagically and port it to SeaMonkey and also port remove THUNDEBRIRD_VERSION and SEAMONKEY_VERSION to 253 which I may start today after I finish the m-c top patch for pkgversion 12:30:23 Just I have given u being a firebrand does not mean I like it how the www goes down :) I usally vote with my money or in case of incompatible sites not visting them if not really needed. I am also doing without google services. There is still much choice. But SeaMonkey code needs to be enhanced for sure. 12:31:50 nsITobin check Bug 1952760. I am also doing a central port for the first part and will rebase you patches. Just wait a day till I have checked in stuff. 12:32:29 this is the 253 version? 12:32:58 oh well there we go lol 12:33:22 yes 12:34:14 IanN and I usally let the patches end with 253xx if 2.53 repo. I usually use cc or nothing for central 12:35:03 We usually review the 2.53 patch and then I/we rebase for checkin. 12:35:04 part 4 of 1652288 took care of remaining bits from 1816266 12:35:17 including SEAMONKEY_VERSION 12:35:29 on central 12:36:43 I am not sure we should remove the rdf files. They are useless but if we ever do it right they need to be converted to webext manifests. Modern is probably finished then but something for the future if ever. 12:37:27 i dunno how they are handling skins right now 12:37:33 so i followed Thunderbird 12:38:34 The locales rdf might be dead in 2.53 already. Not sure. Language packs are webext now there. 12:38:38 I also don't think the default theme HAS a manifest any longer or its some build artifact generated 12:38:57 i know the mozilla skin name was hardcoded to classic/1.0 12:39:44 Yeah but this part would be needed/left for a proper conversion bug. 12:41:18 so would you want me to revise part 4 of 1952288 to seperate out SEAMONKEY_VERSION and just drop removing the rdfs for now? 12:43:08 cause I DO enjoy doing things properly or more properly if the option is there ;) 12:43:18 nsITobin let me rebase first and then we can see. The path traversal stuff ../ and the topdir cleanup is something I would really like in 2.53 too. Artifacts when comm was top dir long ago. 12:44:18 well I am the one to talk to about the comm build system or lack there of .. been moving stuff in and out of comm and all over for years now lol 12:48:06 but I am also perfectly willing to do seperate versions for 253 and cc of stuff if it seems like the best way to deal with it and go back and redo any temporary shortcuts put in.. If you want to bring proper into it ;) 12:52:49 I think that is important anyway as it keeps options open 13:05:34 this patch landing is annoying on central.. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=783526 even more language strings the suite won't reply for a platform component WHICH mailnews core is considered codewise.. 13:05:48 won't supply* 13:08:11 gitlab 2.53 updated 13:09:08 language strings are a problem on central cause any patches will ONLY be additive for fluent strings it won't be migrationbased as mozilla did it and may impact the current use for 253 translation 13:11:01 nsITobin the fluent strings could usually be backported into properties/dtd. We already support flunet but needs more work. 2 components in 2.53 already use it. 13:11:07 ^fluent 13:11:30 I have a potental idea how to work around that but it would break with mozilla tradition .. just keep newer fluent stuff seperate from older l10n 13:13:38 wait we have fluent? 13:13:41 in 253? 13:13:51 yes 13:16:02 basic fluent files are identical to js property files but then they added pythonic parsing to recreate what DTD already does for free 13:16:34 its a pseudo scripting language 13:17:18 is it a goal to move to fluent strings tree wide frg_Away 13:17:58 eventually but needs more backports. Task 9997 13:21:39 what is the advatage to using fluent directly in seamonkey 253? 13:23:03 none until dtd and properties are removed in pontoon. Just code alignment with mail and browser till then. Not a prioriy for sure. 13:23:27 wouldn't a conversion make more sense? 13:25:43 not something I lost sleep over. Too many othetr construction sites :) 13:29:06 I am just having a hard time figuring out what SeaMonkey actually wants to keep 13:29:40 cause fluent is incompatible with mozilla extensibility 13:29:47 and xul technology 13:29:55 not as in can't be done 13:30:07 but doesn't account for it properly and no backports will do that 13:30:12 For now xul extensions and full themes and the current functionality. 13:30:13 it has to be MADE compatible 13:30:59 cna you even access non .properties .dtd from the locale chrome package? 13:34:44 it SOUNDS like what seamonkey;s final form intends to be is Thunderbird before they redesigned everything plus their hacks for bootstrap.js extensions 13:34:56 and skins hacked back in 13:35:25 cause they preserved functionality for a long time internally tho mutating it constantly until after 102 13:37:50 After 68 it did go downhill. But even in 60 stuff like bootstrapping was removed. I would like to keep it. Finally also support web ext more but this is a moving target with the manifest versions. My first goal is web compat right now. 13:40:03 the xbl divide must be conquored 13:41:35 thunderbird already made a suitable tree element replacement.. thunderbird created the hacks waterfox uses today to make them look like something special when they aren't they are adclick traitors.. and thunderbird converted the customizabletoolbar binding so it can be used instead of australis 13:41:45 all that remains is suite bindings 13:42:15 no other change is as devistating save multiprocess 13:45:33 multiprocess would be needed for webrender but I doubt I will see this in this life 13:48:39 well even if it isn't used I pretty much HAVE to conquor it to prove nothing Mozilla does is beyond my understanding even if its a simple binding conversion .. trivial even.. have to do it ;) 13:51:47 Cause Mozilla may be able to socially exclude me with technology but they shall not be allowed to exclude me from a code perspective. They don't have the right. 14:09:58 gitlab central updated 14:11:08 nsITobin just pushed to central and rebased your Bug 1952288 patches. Doing a build right now but compared old and new config.status and checks out. 14:11:54 I think part 1 to 3 are good and I would give them r+. Part 1 is missing a comment about the removed moz updater. 14:12:55 I would split up part 4. themes rdf removal into a new bug as part 1. I would push then and keep it open for wheneven we fix themes. 14:13:25 traversal and %s subst into a new bug also for 2.53 14:15:03 leaves the moz configure change and the locales rdf removal for part 4. 14:15:23 lmk what you think 14:17:29 sounds good to me 14:19:17 add comment to part 1, then split 4 between theme rdfs and traversal to seperate bugs 14:19:20 ? 14:19:41 yeah 14:19:42 yes 14:20:47 do you want SEAMONKEY_VERSION split off as well or did you already do that when you rebased? 14:21:08 Nothing left. see bugs 14:21:30 https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/pushloghtml?startdate=24+hours+ago&enddate=now 14:21:45 https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/ee82f20f5a88967160a1884503571899cda56bc0 14:22:54 Just pick part 4 in gitlab and split it 14:23:20 hopefully all what is needed but my build has not finsihed yet 14:23:41 the patch as pushed looks correct to me 14:24:53 yes as stated compared old and new config.status and then were identical. So hopefully nothing missing 14:26:27 that has been a shortcut I have used for a long time when doing build system stuff it has saved .. years 14:35:55 nsITobin my central build finished in about 60 minutes. Double compared to 2.53. Bloatfest :) 14:36:11 Gave the vm 32 GB 14:36:19 which rust? 14:37:18 stable 1.85 14:37:37 right with the ram bloat 14:37:55 Didn't check but 24GB was borderline before. 14:38:35 and 83 still uses NORMAL amounts of ram.. 14:38:47 if rust persists doing this I am gonna conclude it is intentional 14:38:57 cause it is requiring double ram to build 14:39:08 the same code vs recent older version 15:02:18 nsITobin just saw that Bug 1635413 removed the locales rdf. I will just push the suite part to central so one file less to care about. 15:02:40 Already gone in 2.53 but forgotten in central 15:04:00 that isn't an issue its when Thunderbird touches suite but not consistantly or rolls stuff up and doesn't tell anyone they are doing it 15:04:17 nsITobin this one is on me 15:04:33 i don't see how 15:07:01 Only pushed it to 2.53 and 2.57 15:08:05 frg_Away: my patch on bugzilla for part one of 1952288 does indicate the bug about updater 15:08:15 https://bug1952288.bmoattachments.org/attachment.cgi?id=9470841 15:09:02 the bug title is just confusing because all they did was remove specifing it which I originally maintained then removed because updater is enabled by default.. 15:09:09 Move --disable-updater to python configure. 15:09:14 is a bad commit message 15:09:22 yeah need new glasses. Will steal review for part 1 to 3 from IanN_Away and push them later. Unless he is fast :) 15:10:49 leg gets a bit stiff so need to do some real life stuff not in front of monitor :) 15:10:58 part 1's bits should have been done by thunderbird last june or not rolled into their finalization patch 15:12:09 at all 15:15:41 my glasses are held together by glue 15:16:28 yay superglue~ 15:16:43 Cyanoacrilate: keeping the world together... mostly 15:16:51 superglue for adhearence but expanding gorilla glue for toughness 15:17:18 so i look a bit silly.. i also act a bit silly too.. consistancy is key 15:17:22 had to buy some in a rush 2 days ago after 6 PM to fix that old dot matrix printer I bought 15:17:38 i am having a hard time finding regular superglue 15:17:39 one of the smoked plastic covers was broken and found the missing piece lingering inside the printer, and also the tape broke 15:17:56 they just have this superglue gel which works but requires you to hold it for a minute to bond 15:18:04 and that simply defeats the point of superglue 15:18:15 here we only have a single brand in stores: "Pega Loka 3" (dunno why the 3), made somewhere in China 15:18:22 it's not great, but gets the job done if you know the tricks 15:18:35 i'd hate to think press on nail glue is the only source of liquid superglue i can find 15:18:37 and yes, this is the one that demands you to press parts together for a minute for it to bond 15:18:48 and that can get messy if you don't have good grip 15:19:20 i have poor fine motorskills so working .. hands over period can be a problem 15:20:31 sometimes I wonder if I am communicating or have just refind beating a table to a fine art 15:20:42 then there comes the absolutely messy part: getting the remnants of cured glue out of your hands 15:20:59 (hope you didn't glued your fingers together!) 15:21:14 I end scraping my fingers against a bare cinderblock 15:54:38 frg_Away: part 3 is irrelevant for now 15:55:04 there is crap happening regarding updates and background tasks and the new browser update agent 15:55:16 on 1952288 15:57:36 thunderbid has switched to newer stuff i am not familar with 15:58:38 scrap it 15:58:41 part it out i guess 15:58:50 the bug cannot be completed as originally envisioned 16:00:29 frg_Away: 16:01:17 too many roadblocks 16:02:49 Mission failure. 16:04:11 So I am gonna ask this again what is the end goal for seamonkey? 16:05:42 what does seamonkey theoretically look like at the end? 16:10:10 following mozilla patches will only get you mozilla as they dictate if that is the end goal just with extras it is insane to continue trying on 253 16:10:19 i'd rather jump 16:10:25 get it over with 16:23:21 rust fluent no dtds no properties no plugins no binary xpcom modules chromeutils static registration .. why is seamonkey on this codebase if THAT is the end goal? 16:23:45 and of course xul custom elements are subject to webstandards for custom elements 16:23:57 so that becomes linked with webcompat 16:24:34 and you will need xul custom elements and latest customelements standards for webextensions 16:25:23 the web as a platform is inhearently incompatible with Mozilla as a platform. How much time do I have to waste before that is clear? 16:27:12 you are only allowed degrees 16:27:14 of such 16:29:50 what I need to know is what degree beyond "current features" and skins 16:30:49 cause current features and skins? well rss aside.. yeah 102 but better hurry all our asses to do it.. beyond that 115 but would need xpcom components moved to jsms first.. 128 need jsms moved to esmodules first.. 16:31:25 the xbl divide seems to be the only ACTUAL sticking point beyond RDF which again thunderbird already created solutions for and waterfox uses them to this day 16:32:02 and Mozilla's WebComponents is based on rust and completely incompatible with XBL and requires its removal and be parted out to webcomponents 16:32:14 rust for the css bits 16:33:15 UXP's solution is likely not portable and even if it is would be incompatible with Mozilla's progression cause it is literally based upon a different path mozilla rejected 16:38:43 What are my instructions? 16:42:32 Ok guys.. I can either obey or give orders.. PICK ONE 16:45:44 cause to redo part 4 and make it compatible to be otherwise backported it needs done before my rewrite which pushes my rewrite further up the stack to who knows when.. and I am UNWILLING to work on the mangled build files if they are gonna stay mangled 16:46:57 and i have another issue 16:47:47 I can't do this stop and go switching on things I expect to do something have it completed and to be able to move on I can't manage several tasks on my own dependant on each other and the whims of external changes.. 16:48:36 i hate this 16:48:51 you need a Mozilla.. i'll provide a mozilla until the very end i guess 16:51:19 even though I really don't want to emulate them anymore because I actually want to accomplish complete something 16:54:06 and what happened the last time 17:00:09 maybe I am just fundamentally incompatible with seamonkey development .. i can do the work but not the job.. gee that sounds familar 17:00:19 I'm gone for now. 17:40:34 nsITobin back and did push. Please check. Updated gitlab central too. Made part 4 a wip for now and removed 3 as requested. 17:43:04 now munch 17:53:10 frg_Away: I have this overwheling call to action BLASTING in my head .. it's always there but it is blairing now and its because of everything I can't do in the world. It is so frustrating and I also don't know how long I will have the means to be of any theoretical assistance.. 17:54:13 frg_Away: is there a new de beta for testing or can you provide one?