01:49:58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc8rvV8DDmQ 01:50:42 yeah 01:51:18 Great, so now we have a browser duopoly, both of those browsers are officially spyware and for some unfathomable reason the majority of web developers insist on writing web pages in such way that they only work on those two browsers 01:51:45 it is ONLY official now 01:52:00 because they are an adclick ai company 01:52:14 Actually we don't have duopoly but the majority of web developers refuse to write webpages that work on other browsers so actually we have a duopoly 01:52:25 but the telemetry was added to be sold.. that was always obvious 01:52:38 But why the web developers are like that? 01:52:53 It's their fault, the website industry's fault 01:53:01 Sompi: i wish i wasn't so far behind the environment is primed for modern firefox fork and all it has to do is remove all telemetry.. 01:53:18 and maybe like it look better 01:54:12 I have argued with many professional web developers and it just feels that their head is made of solid stone 01:54:38 web developers are NOT webmasters 01:54:40 They don't understand what they are doing 01:54:56 webmaster is something you must attain.. web developer is just a job title 01:55:09 Actually they seem to be so bad at their work that in most industries they would be fired 01:55:28 But somehow it is ok and the new normal in the website industry 01:55:46 no this started over a decade ago 01:55:52 I know 01:55:54 its been creeping for a LONG LONG time 01:56:04 And I have warned about it many times 01:57:04 And somehow those who are professional web developers haven't seen it coming 01:57:10 And they still don't 01:57:13 How is it even possible 01:57:32 It's the web developers who are forcing everyone into using Chrome and Firefox 01:57:35 Sompi: i still blame the iphone and obama.. 01:58:03 the mass consumer was NOT ready for devices like this yet 01:58:08 they did not have the proper education 01:58:24 You don't need a "proper education" to understand the basics 01:58:28 because if they had.. they wouldn't have paid for perpetually 3 year old iphone tech at 3 times the cost 01:58:38 well back when the iphone was always old tech 01:59:21 You don't need education to understand the cause-and-effect relationships between software components 01:59:35 Sompi: we are freaks we understand these basics intuitively to some level.. depending on what it is.. .. tech is still magic to most people 01:59:37 Normies used to understood that 02:00:02 magic to solve all their problems with no effort 02:00:03 Almost every online multiplayer game had servers and clients and everyone could host their own game 02:00:18 but it set a mentality 02:00:19 And they had command lines and irc-like commands 02:00:23 that sold very very well 02:00:29 And normies could use those perfectly well 02:00:40 and spread to apple computers.. and got into googles hands and microsoft botched their attempt 02:00:44 And they understood the concepts of server and client 02:00:52 And protocols and everything 02:01:16 Then something happened and suddenly a "normie" means an incredibly stupid person who would have been considered retarded 20 years ago 02:01:53 well seamonkey needs a strategic media effort.. to capitalize on these Mozilla blunders get more help and be awesome.. least I think so 02:01:54 A completely irresponsible idiot who don't understand anything and doesn't care about the consequences of their own actions 02:02:07 That's what the word "normie" means now 02:02:23 that has been my definition since 2009 02:02:33 Back then it used to mean just a non-autistic person 02:02:40 20 years ago or so 02:03:04 but I'm the irredeemable monster so do cross-check other sources.. 02:03:26 Then something changed and now the median person is so incredibly stupid that it is literally destroying the human society as we know it 02:04:08 Even web developers, who SHOULD have an IQ of far above average, are suddenly so fucking stupid that they don't even understand the basics of their own profession 02:04:09 i watched people around me people at least halfway decent with desktop computers.. loose all their skills 02:04:19 Same 02:04:20 when they got smartphones 02:05:30 I don't believe that the smartphones could have caused it 02:05:43 There may be a chronological correlation but probably no causalation 02:05:44 it was the major catelyst 02:05:50 itunes was another 02:05:53 primed before hand 02:06:00 I believe that some other environmental factor changed 02:06:12 of course really all this came out of microsoft research originally 02:06:22 microsoft knew we weren't ready 02:07:25 Sompi: hopium.. 02:07:27 perhaps 02:07:31 the rise of hopium 02:07:35 and undefined goals 02:08:51 what do you think Sompi 02:09:07 my position could use testing its been held for long and may have flaws 02:12:19 Undefined goals are just a symptom of people becoming dumbed down 02:12:47 Every quartal we get some new stupid hype of something that cannot work, or at least cannot make things any better 02:38:31 nsITobin: Every computer hobbyists, who knows something about programming and making websites, should have a grasp of what web technologies are supported in the web browsers of different eras and different levels of complexity 02:38:49 I agree 02:38:52 as such a person 02:39:24 We all know that if the page is only HTML, it most probably works on every browser from some ancient 16-bit Netscape to modern Links, Lynx or Dillo 02:40:02 except html5 and es6+ sucks so i really don't want to learn/use it if i can avoid it.. because WE already have command .. all of us do of every major technology that was meant to BE the future standard .. 02:40:10 If it has JavaScript, it makes things more difficult but it still most probably works on most browsers if the code doesn't have the newest chromeisms. Everyone understands what those chromeisms are and they are also relatively well documented 02:40:29 So how is it possible that the majority of actual professional web developers don't have any grasp of these things? 02:41:22 because professional web developers are not webmasters they were not trained nor encuraged to learn .. anything.. only follow trends and memorize and reiterate things 02:41:34 Related, I wrote this: http://techrights.org/n/2025/02/25/Sami_Tikkanen_Explains_What_Happened_to_Computer_Science_Educat.shtml 02:41:40 But it doesn't give any answers, only more questions 02:41:42 then trained on specific frameworks 02:41:46 or just wordpress 02:42:06 nsITobin: Yes, but how is it possible that they don't know anything else than what they are trained? 02:42:25 They are IT professionals, so they should have at least some hobbyist background 02:42:45 They should at least be interested in these things 02:42:51 is it a passion or a job and is any outward showing of passion consistant across time or does it shift and turn against things on a whim 02:42:53 And if they are interested, they get to know 02:45:38 That writing is mostly about gen z programmers, but I'm talking about slightly older people now. People who normally used to have a hobbyist background before studying computer tech 02:46:00 there is also the fact that we have had a long term trend of abstracted ever complexifing glueing and reabstracted after a refactor .. people can't keep up and we have generations of people with fundamental disagreements on how to proceed that has lead to political alignments that has resulted in idological purgings in between the normal corperate greed layoffs and robbing peter web tech to pay paul AI startup 02:46:12 Those gen z people are a mess 02:47:19 nsITobin: Yes, but that shouldn't affect that much to hobbyists. You can still write webpages in pure HTML and it is still the easiest way to do it 02:47:47 and millennials are better? we're either burnouts, systamatically sabotaged, and incrasingly spastic and selfish following the early 90s 02:48:11 But it seems that suddenly almost no-one has an interest to anything and people have forgotten all stuff that they once knew 02:48:46 YES EXACTLY i been saying that since what 2017 on a regular basis 02:48:58 One day I started reading forum posts from an old Finnish programming forum, from 2005 02:49:16 but Sompi it evolved in mozilla to where discussion of specific tech no matter the location or tech level is offtopic or "too advanced" 02:49:29 People of my age (who were ~12 years old at the time) already knew more stuff than university graduates know today 02:49:46 why is the old and insecure technology too advanced for contributors for modern mozilla.. i think someone fucked up what they said.. or fucked up and admitted something 02:50:40 Back then 16 year olds were already very skilled, they had been self-studying stuff for several years 02:51:24 Now people of that age don't even know where the power button is, and they think that they are going to learn all that from vocational school 02:51:25 there were a lot of bright millinial minds of children of and those that grew into the 90s.. a lot of it went out one by one locally by the mid 2000s.. online .. later but late 2000s 02:52:26 when the finaical crash basically stole the bulk of my generation's future 02:52:31 in the US 02:53:01 But computers are not an expensive hobby 02:53:08 they are now 02:53:15 they WEREN'T in the 2000s 02:53:17 You don't need a new and expensive computer to write code 02:53:20 everything became cheap as hell 02:53:24 Quite the contrary, actually 02:53:38 in the US prices dropped a lot in the 2000s 02:53:45 on computers 02:53:56 I have never owned a new computer 02:54:10 well i always built mine so it was cheap 02:54:16 vs a dell or a gateway 02:54:45 in 2007 i could build you a decent mid-range system with a monitor for 700 dollars comprable system from an oem would be few grand 02:54:56 and i did build and sold some 02:54:58 to people 02:55:21 The specs of a new average computer build are still pretty much the same 02:55:35 The same amount of memory, the same amount of storage 02:55:39 The same amount of CPU cores... 02:55:54 The I/O is worse, it's mostly just USB connectors now 02:56:22 And everything is locked down 02:56:45 "Trusted computing" where the thing that is not trusted is the user 02:57:43 You cannot even boot anything other than M$ Windows without changing some settings in the SETUP program that is most probably buggy has hell, and when your CMOS battery becomes empty you cannot boot your "alternative" operating system at all until you buy a new battery because it always resets to the default settings 02:58:06 of course in terms of generations.. I identify as Generation Y.. cause MOST of the latter half of the millinial generation knows it is a dangerous question.. so can't be bothered.. you are on the rarer side 02:58:42 efi is always bugged 02:59:05 go back to bios.. we don't need exobytes of storage .. unless windows gets any larger 02:59:10 or chrome 02:59:55 BIOS supports 64-bit LBA, but modern hard drives are still physically limited to 48 bits 03:00:21 Sompi: we are the last geenration allows to spash in storm puddles or walk around unattended all over town or do any of the shit kids had done for decades past.. 03:00:36 consider that as well 03:00:50 yes 03:01:05 Generation Y is "defined as people born from 1981 to 1996" so that's a wide range 03:01:32 or have trick or treat when it is dark and trust most of our neighbor weren't gonna try and snatch a kid or feed us razor blades 03:02:05 Being a teenager in the 90s must have been completely different than it was during the late 2000s and early 2010s when the world was already being flipped upside down 03:02:41 3G networks were deployed here in 2008 and in that timeframe everything suddenly started becoming a lot worse 03:02:49 it has .. complete inversion.. 03:03:20 I am telling you all it's the god damned cell phones.. they don't CAUSE cancer they ARE the cancer. 03:04:26 I have always had my suspicions that the 3G, 4G and 5G radiation itself changes the way how people think, but of course I still don't have any conclusive evidence of anything. But the correlation is clearly there. 03:04:48 Of course the predatory social media became a thing at the same timeframe, which makes things even more diffcult 03:05:09 on a corperate basis it is far more profitable to tell your customer base what they want then provide it than it is to educate your customer base on why they need your shit.. on a political basis it is great for power grabs.. together we have .. well today. 03:05:59 well social media is all about control and data collection which means more control 03:06:08 I have always advocated for wired connections, to exclude at least one cause of this ongoing global degradation of intellect 03:06:23 At least one possible cause, I meant to write 03:06:33 Sompi: let's start a webring 03:06:45 i wanted to start a webring in 2011 03:07:17 start a webring and a new internet directory 03:07:51 bypass search engines and use our existing technology to start spreading the world wide web again.. been saying that for at LEAST 3 years in here lol 03:07:55 In Finland we cannot even buy a wired internet connection anymore. Everything uses mobile network now, and the connections are increasingly unreliable and the latencies are terrible 03:08:30 Sompi: that.. is conserningly predictable.. here it is almost impossible to get a real legit landline 03:08:41 We don't have landlines anymore, they were demolished "because they are yesterdays technology" or something. I still don't get it how a copper wire can become obsolete, after all all electronics are still based on them. 03:08:44 but they will run a DSL line 03:09:01 but won't offer legit telephone service 03:09:04 on the line 03:09:19 even if the equiptment is in place and next door still has service 03:09:50 nsITobin: The Finnish landline network was originally built by local cooperatives and then bought by a state-owned company Sonera. Our corrupt politicians then gave Sonera to a Swedish company Telia 03:10:22 Moonchild's ISP 03:10:27 i think 03:10:29 Then Telia stopped maintaining it because they only wanted profits 03:10:41 And in the end they scrapped it to get at least some money from the copper 03:10:48 And didn't build anything to replace it with 03:10:53 sounds like a spinco job like we had here with charter and the others 03:13:50 AT&T is in FCC violation since 2011 after they failed to buy tmobile.. and won't let a non-att phone roam on the network won't even let it connect for basic 911 service which is an FCC requirement.. 03:13:51 Sonera also bought air from Germany with billions before it was given practically for free to Telia 03:13:55 (UMTS licenses) 03:14:06 i filed a complaint with the FCC .. at the time 03:14:10 guess what happened 03:15:08 They spent 4,3 billion euros of tax money for those UMTS licenses that were worthless 03:15:18 Someone made a fortune 03:16:58 what i want to know is why everything has to be overwritten.. why can't it be split off as a new thing and stand on its own .. because of course most stuff these days CAN'T 03:17:35 Sompi: teach me C 03:17:37 :P 03:19:58 Download Open Watcom 1.9 and install it to a DOS machine 03:20:31 That way you don't learn only the programming language, but also direct hardware access 03:20:55 i don't have a dos machine 03:21:20 You can use a virtual machine as a temporary substitute 03:22:27 how does direct hardware access help me? 03:22:49 It gives a grasp of how the computer actually works 03:23:00 but not my current computer 03:23:25 The all have the same principles 03:24:04 i don't think I can learn that because it will for the rest of my life piss me off that I can't have direct hardware access on any computer i'd normally be using. 03:24:23 unless its in kernel code 03:24:55 For most computing stuff you don't need direct hardware access, but some things are only possible on DOS-like environment 03:26:23 But writing DOS code is very educational, you automatically learn many optimization tricks 03:26:58 Also the learning environment is very unforgiving, without modern debuggers and such. 03:27:17 i don't know how to really use a debugger anyway 03:27:19 I recommend writing the code in such way that it compiles to both Linux and DOS, that way you can use Valgrind to find bugs. 03:27:57 and what am I writing.. for what purpose? 03:27:58 I don't know if Valgrind counts as a debugger, but it at least shows you memory errors, which you get a lot when beginning to learn C. 03:28:12 To learn C and low-level programming, of course! 03:29:16 This is a good tutorial: http://sininenankka.dy.fi/~sami/mirror/vga_all/vga/ 03:29:29 The original is lost from the internets but I mirrored it 03:31:09 The Borland code should be compatible with Open Watcom 03:36:33 nsITobin: And for DOS, use FreeDOS. ST-DOS is not currently compatible with the newest versions of Watcom's DOS extender, so it doesn't work. 04:26:52 I'll look into it but for dos it won't be soon.. maybe later this year 12:14:38 bo1953: if you read the logbot, are you sure the pane is not collapsed or hidden? try hitting f9. Re: Yahoo/AOL/Verizon do you get an authentication error or some other message? I think I've got that set up with an "app password" here. 12:18:10 nsITobin: EFI to me has looked like a way to go back a decade or so. "PC BIOS" was finally having wrinkles mostly ironed out, it pretty much looked like a fertile opportunity for implementation details and incompatibilities. Which isn't a criticism of UEFI per se, just of the idea the move would improve things magically. 12:22:08 Sompi: nsITobin: come to think of it, has static analysis been used in books/tutorials as a tool to learn C programming? sounds like an interesting idea, although I guess it probably fires back unless the tool has very good messages and a low FP rate. 12:55:59 njsg: http://sininenankka.dy.fi/~sami/uefi_fact_sheet.php 12:56:53 UEFI was designed to lock other operating systems out. Every struct in it comes from Windows, even in the ARM version every program binary has to have that MS-DOS program stub in its header because of the file format 12:57:15 The whole thing is so incredibly stupid design 12:59:04 I do recall something about it having Portable Executable formats in it 13:02:21 That "PE format" means that it must start with the DOS EXE program 13:02:59 So UEFI is actually married to MS-DOS in that way, although it cannot boot MS-DOS because UEFI is so limited in everything it does 13:03:56 UEFI lacks runtime services and is very picky about the structure in the beginning of the disk (partition table) and is unable to boot if it doesn't find a supported partitioning table there 13:04:02 Stupid design 13:06:20 It has completely different design principles than IBM PC BIOS, which has been very carefully designed so that it does not restrict what can be done with the computer 13:09:07 And Microsoft spreads weird disinformation about BIOS to promote UEFI. They claim that BIOS has all sorts of arbitrary limitations that aren't really there. I don't know how they can even do that without being in trouble 15:50:57 https://github.com/abishekvashok/cmatrix/pull/199 the sky is falling! 15:50:59 JWZ sent a newfangled "pull request" to MICROS~1 Giggityhub! 15:51:34 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/02/todays-retrocomputing-rathole/ 16:02:02 I do think I've noticed that issue with cmatrix... 16:02:41 I didn't even bother with it, though, it was not like I wanted the terminal to be running cmatrix, it has its own screensaving method 16:18:50 Well, found a perfectly reproducible hang involving our favorite foe, Clownflare 16:18:52 and this one seems to impact us 16:19:06 open any protected site, wait for the captcha to (non) render 16:19:10 (well, Turnstile) 16:19:21 the old trick was to force it to render with devtools' inspector 16:19:58 but this time when I point the inspector at the empty hole with Turnstile, the browser... hangs, burning a single core with a deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep callstack within libxul.so 16:20:21 reproducible even on the latest nightly I've installed 2 days ago: 20250224210111 16:20:49 I still do not understand why Turnsickle doesn't render by default, only when threatened by devtools 16:20:56 but now it has turned into a outright mousetrap 16:29:58 likely got into some dom vs style vs js reevail loop 16:30:18 like normally happens when a Mozilla application hangs and eats one core on the web 16:30:24 and never recovers 16:30:43 given libxul is nearly everything 16:31:04 in a shambling inhuman beast of a lib 16:32:05 last time I triggered the hang and attached gdb to the thing, the stackdump was >255 levels deep 16:32:15 of course without symbols :/ 16:32:35 but yeah, smells like some recursivity gone wild 16:37:41 my bet would be some unsupported or unhandled CSS property, say, a transition 16:37:46 s@bet@guess@ 16:38:47 yeah style seems always involved when this behavior crops up more times than not .. least as far as my experience is conserned 16:39:41 you were looking at some CSS properties that were somehow needed for the challenge, right? 16:40:12 what I'm thinking is that this looks too much like the breakage I got because of snippets in userContent.css to disable transitions. there are at least two sites that broke with that 16:40:15 they do include css feature testing as part of determining if you are acceptable or not 16:40:21 but they keep changing it 16:40:32 one was Google captcha in a .pt site, another was the MICROS~1 login 16:42:14 you do know why modern browsers even see the screen right instead of being transparently dealt with? because one day CF will have preroll ads before you view a website unless you pay to not have them.. its my first real prediction for this new era 16:42:46 ads will become the standard to let you in on the CF scale 16:43:01 if you block ads or don't support the new ad features you get locked out 16:43:04 simple as that 16:43:09 by 2030 16:44:06 might as well send the cops to my house, because I have a policy on My Networks: NO ADS, EVER. 16:44:31 ironically what led me to block ads were... electoral ads from my very own country 16:44:36 (Well, that and Flash abuse) 16:44:56 either Microsoft pulled the plug on OWA or they are doing some harmful UA sniffing 16:45:04 I think I loaded it less than a week ago 16:45:11 so it's a recent change 16:45:25 ( https://outlook.office.com/owa ) 16:45:27 what MICROS~1 is about to kill next week is Skype 16:45:39 eh, OWA has been broken for me long ago 16:46:16 tomman: are you using an organization account? were you using a UA override? 16:46:25 nah, just a ordinary Hotmail account 16:46:34 they for a time redirected me to the XP-era OWA 16:46:45 but recently they decomissioned that one again, it seems 16:47:06 it had been working for me until ~1w ago with the UA override, but I'm logged in to an organization account 16:48:15 I have bigger problems with that Outlook account anyway: once a month, MICROS~1 blocks me from accessing due to my CGNAT 16:48:21 "429 Too many attempts" 16:48:35 which also conveniently breaks OAuth2 on Mail&News 16:49:04 how much does it break oauth2? it forces a login? or you mean the login flow doesn't work? 16:49:07 the workaround I got for that was to tether my computer to 4G and try logging in there, that works and leaves me alone for the next four weeks or so 16:49:18 I mean, I'm wondering if there's at least the hope that if you're logged in, you remain logged in 16:49:19 Well, it prompts me to logon again 16:49:37 I supply my credentials, and I get cockblocked with "429 Too Many Requests" 16:49:51 seems to be a popular error at their end, and it started happening in late 2024 16:50:02 in my case it's most likely due to my horrible CGNAT 16:50:18 and the escape route is always the same: connect from another IP 16:50:20 you mean it's more popular than General Protection Failure? 16:50:32 kids these day don't know General P.F. 16:51:03 neither do I, apparently, for it's fault, not failure 16:51:46 OTOH I do recognize this theme, wasn't it one of the bundled ones with some version of Frontpage?: https://winduzhelp.tripod.com/general_protection_fault1.htm 16:51:50 In any case, plenty of 429 reports out there since late 2024, and MS support is useless as usual 16:52:02 they ask you to clear your cookies and other non-workarounds 16:52:18 but apparently it's mostly due to CGNAT hell 16:52:53 that's funny, because in this kind of issues, the trend is probably to try to sniff cookies, so clearing cookies might even be counterproductive 16:52:54 njsg: that looks more like Frontpage 2000 at least 16:53:48 I recognize that theme too, and it was available with Office 2000 or 2002 16:53:49 I distinctly remember that squares drawing, whether it was 2000 or not or Frontpage or not, I ain't so sure, but it doesn't so much ring a bell, it screams a bell 16:54:26 FP2000 was also the first version to adopt Office's UI widgets and libraries 16:55:36 I've only seen 2000 in Office, besides Express (included in the IE bundle) I think I might have played with 98 in some computer somewhere, similar to the IE FP Express, but not "Express" 16:56:08 one wonders how did Works manage to get named that and not Word Express 16:56:27 FP98 was still a separate product to the rest of Office, and still used the same VTI-era UI libs 16:56:29 (or Office Express, actually didn't it have things other than the WYSIWYG text editor?) 16:56:56 Works was a completely separate group inside Microsoft, and let's say... Microsoft groups do not have friends :D 16:56:58 yeah, FP98 wasn't "integrated", not sure if it was packaged together with Office or not 16:57:17 tomman: maybe that's why they made Hearts? 16:57:21 I did used a lot of Frontpage Express 25 years ago :D 16:58:08 yup, FrontPage was not integrated with Office (nor sold as part of it) until FP2000 16:58:23 but only with Premium and Developer editions 16:59:02 it seems 2003 was also decoupled from the main suite offerings, by only being sold as a independent product 16:59:13 (pirates didn't cared anyway and threw everything into the same CD-R :P) 16:59:14 ah, I was unsure about the 98 one (Although yes, 98 != 97), given how Office 97 had several applications, some of which perhaps less seen as part of the core. I'm thinking of Schedule 16:59:35 I guess that one (wait, was it "Schedule+"?) eventually got integrated in Outlook? 17:00:09 that one did came with Office 95, if I recall 17:00:16 97 too 17:00:38 97 introduced Outlook, but I have vague memories of shipping with a cut-down version of Schedule for migration purposes or whatever 17:01:05 that was it then, I know it had something by the name of Schedule(+?) 17:01:18 Office 2000 did bring a breakthrough feature that could shadow a lot of the competition 17:01:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Schedule%2B 17:01:21 Links 17:01:21 It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern: 17:01:23 Fails WP:NSOFT (proposed by 80.103.137.131) 17:01:24 lolWikipedia 17:01:41 *sigh* anotehr AfD? I'm not sure I'm in the mood 17:02:00 hmm, it seems it lurked until Office 2003 17:02:04 last one involved the disgruntled proponent accusing everyone who participated of sockpuppetry 17:02:05 but haven't seen it there 17:28:19 njsg: so anyone want to talk about the clearly staged and Pale Moon-esque attack of a global leader of an invaded country by one of US's major enemies for the last 70 years? 17:30:30 Clownflare Siege, Day 31: we now know we ARE under attack too :P 17:31:12 "don't even DARE poking at our Turnstile, or we WILL crash your browser" 17:31:51 tomman: yeah .. but never forget its the same bullshit I been dabbiling with for a decade.. its old and so obvious.. no one should have any excuse not seeing through it.. 17:32:40 devtools causing a site to crash the browser intentionally 17:32:45 we've seen that before 17:33:43 also office 2000 was outstanding 17:33:57 not that office 97 was bad it was just.. barely more than office 95 17:34:34 but 2000 felt then-modern.. professional.. productive.. and useful.. write your letter or tabulate your figures and fuck off.. UNLESS you want help ;) 17:34:38 for me 97 was peak Office 17:34:44 2000 brought a bit more of polish, yes 17:35:06 but also moar "web stuff" (oriented around IE, of course), and well, Clippy finally floated over the desktop without a window frame 17:35:26 well late 90s .. win2k era design and aesthetic really was the peak they could do without adding skins.. Whistler Watercolor tho.. mm good shit 17:35:26 2002 was more of the same, this time with flaaaat toolbars and moar webjunk 17:36:00 and 2003 was not as great as 97, but it was the final Office release with a sane UI 17:36:03 tomman: office xp used whistler styling cause office paints its own widgets 17:36:28 Office has been painting their own widgets since 95 at least 17:36:35 the luna-ized 2k3 style was pushing it for me in terms of acceptablity REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY BLUE GRADIENTS THEY SHOVED IN MY FACE 17:36:39 heh 17:36:47 it did hooked up into uxtheme.dll for 2003 17:37:01 only to check which varient to use 17:37:13 no office 2003 widget was styled by windows 17:37:17 but then... if you deviated from the 3 basic XP Luna themes or Windows Classic, you got the the hideous baby blue by default 17:37:21 only uses of standard win32 widgets 17:37:31 tomman: check NT 3x and newer office 17:37:45 office 97 renders as windows 95 office 97 17:38:13 on NT3.x, Office 97 renders 95-esque window buttons on the menubar indeed 17:38:23 it's weird... and glorious :D 17:38:56 http://toastytech.com/guis/nt351word.png 17:39:05 well ie5 for unix which ports a significant portion of the windows shell and api with it.. 17:39:21 tomman: yes exactly where do you think I learned about it 17:39:25 and the Office for Mac versions initially were the same deal 17:39:27 ie is evil 17:39:28 ...but worse 17:39:31 ie is ALWAYS evil 17:39:42 yeah, but we're in 2025 17:39:47 the new Satan is Google Chrome 17:39:47 see 90s summerized here https://thereisonlyxul.org/ 17:39:55 tomman: no it isn't 17:40:02 if you believe that you've already lost 17:40:03 for me it is 17:40:08 it's still Microsoft 17:40:17 IE is horrible and glad it's still dead, but Chrome is the new enemy we must fight 17:40:34 google is on the tail end of its absolute domination of everything 17:40:37 ...and sadly it now got a level of power and reach that MS would wet the pants for it (hence partially why Edge exists) 17:40:58 and the industry is tired of google as well.. Microsoft is poised to become undesputed leader of the web 17:41:03 Chrome is the war I fight against tech every day, from wake up to sleep time 17:41:04 just as was originally intended 17:41:14 Microsoft is old and and passé 17:41:34 microsoft today is not the same microsoft we knew anymore than Mozilla is or any other company 17:41:36 once the current crop retires, there will be no kids interested into working for "ancient MICROS~1 that's for oold people ew" 17:41:39 it isn't gates and balmer 17:42:06 Gates is now divorced (and lost the private jets), and Balmer is too busy balling with the Clippers :D 17:42:07 its people who believe wordpress is better than aspx when working at microsoft.. that chromium is the way and not edgehtml or trident 17:42:19 these are people who do NOT believe in their own technology legacy or history 17:42:30 but DO love the historical power and influence 17:42:34 which is ALL that matters 17:42:44 they will take over and it will be via chromium 17:42:52 because google is NOT gonna be the leader for much longer 17:45:10 no, the new leader will be Skynet 17:45:18 hence why I've permabanned AI at my premises :) 17:45:19 AND tomman here is the REAL indicator.. Google is NOT dictating service website UX anymore they are following Microsoft trends.. i have seen more design chanegs to hide full listings and full menus behind multiple clickgates .. Windows 11 started this crap in ernist 17:46:01 Microsoft Design is the influence right now on the web NOT Google. 17:46:13 same crap to me 17:46:23 well yeah that's how monocultures work 17:46:25 Google started MY current personal war against web and tech 17:46:34 but its now microsoft branded... 17:46:37 just after having won against Microsoft 17:47:05 and this after Mozilla has signed their final death warrent with this telemetry for their ai and adclick business decision 17:47:46 we never won against microsoft tho my friend.. the doj rigged the game.. but who could predict google in 2002ish 17:48:12 and the rise of the iphone later on 17:50:24 in my view after everything seems the doj snatched defeat for us all out of the jaws of victory because Microsoft would have brought ALL THIS in its original form to the world 20 years before hand everyone would look at it.. say its fuckin stupid and microsoft would have been humbled for good instead of merely shacked until Google and Apple set precident for everything Microsoft had planned in the first place 17:50:32 and NOW no mozilla to stand against them 17:51:18 shackled* 17:53:05 who is gonna stand for all of us tho .. I think we need to stand for ourselves but do it as together as possible.. There is very few other options left open. 17:53:45 office 2000 was so outstanding that MS somehow was forced to release a compatibility patch for Office Open XML 17:53:46 but investing all ones hopes and dreams in one project, one initiative, one emporer god king that shit needs to stop and fast.. 17:54:59 I am gonna leave the soap box over there for anyone to use.. as fun as it is standing on it.. I am wasting time by doing so :P 17:55:55 soap box - laundry time, uh? :-P 17:56:07 * njsg washes some JS engines 17:56:29 Yeah about dirty laundry let's air some more about these big corperations.. :P 17:58:24 njsg: what should I call my PHP 7.4 fork? 18:11:33 sphpoon 18:12:33 i don't think I can have php be apart of the name.. 18:13:13 oh? well then 18:13:35 sfpoon? spoon? I'm not really good at naming 18:13:57 Modified products derived from PHP 18:13:57 You can distribute your own software product which has been derived from PHP, in source or binary form, provided that: 18:13:57 relevant copyright information and license(s) from the PHP codebase are distributed in human-readable form with every copy, as described above. 18:13:57 you don't use the name "PHP" without permission, either to promote your own product or within your product's name (see clauses #3 and #4 in the PHP license version 3.01). 18:14:23 while sphpoon is awesome it may be too close to that .. plus Tobin Factor to not allow me to use it 18:15:19 was thinking bhp or qhp basic hypertext preprocessor or quirky hypertext preprocessor or just fall back on xhp eXtensibile Hypertext Preprocessor 18:16:32 exypre 18:18:27 phobia 18:18:54 people are LITERALLY cared of quirky coersively typed language 18:18:57 so call it phobia 18:19:48 "They develop when a person has an exaggerated or unrealistic sense of danger about a situation or object" 18:19:49 that'd be bad for searching for it 18:20:11 oh and hack was any better LOL 18:20:22 let me search for hack 18:20:38 North Korea Responsible for $1.5 Billion Bybit Hack 18:21:01 long scale or short scale? 18:21:17 no idea 18:21:19 besides search terms are being reflected by AI algros not older search algros.. so results are bs anyway.. 18:21:41 hack language is better 18:22:14 actually the results for phobia KINDA help make my point 18:44:19 njsg: checked out the tc39 lately? 18:47:30 anyway got stuff to do.. be back later on