00:00:46 <nsITobin> from rdf to xbl to xul to xpinstall .. it was an xml technology utopia
00:00:54 <nsITobin> and then google happened
00:01:28 <nsITobin> granted the build system was utter trash and it was hard to build.. today mozilla-central is easy to build but the build system is a new kind of utter trash
00:01:51 <nsITobin> Camino
00:01:59 <nsITobin> because Firefox was never meant for Macintosh
00:02:05 <nsITobin> just Linux and Windows
00:03:24 <frg_Away> t doesn't matter what was and wasn't. We unfortunately need to deal with reality and the future is bleak with so few contributors. Palemoon and SeaMonkey are probably the ones with the biggest dev base  but it not enough.
00:04:09 <tomman> our last hope was expecting to get Google dismantled a-la-Bell System, alas that's not happening anymore
00:06:06 <frg_Away> It wouldn't  change nothing. We still need to do catch up, mozilla would be in serious trouble and the time does not stand still. Some other big player like MS would just trow a few millions in the put and create another bunch of shoddy browser features.
00:06:22 <frg_Away> ^in the pot
00:06:59 <nsITobin> FrankLion might be right and Microsoft's influence if they try may not be enough with everyone else having a chrome client
00:08:00 <nsITobin> he may also be right that too much chaos is going on to make any accurate predictions
00:11:21 <nsITobin> i feel like people are screaming out for these kinds of projects but are hesitating for some reason ..
00:13:26 <nsITobin> I do know there is some fear of open source going around thanks to all those high profile security news stories last year .. youtube influencers suggesting that projects with less than a thousand people or not backed by a large company shouldn't be trusted anymore
00:13:31 <nsITobin> that hasn't helped
00:14:16 <nsITobin> a decade of "old and insecure" hasn't help either
00:14:49 <nsITobin> and maybe I am getting old and insecure.. but the software ain't ;)
00:20:47 <grey_gandalf> back! sorry guys, but I was connected from windows with SeaMonkey and it appears it gets some long hangs and then disconnects.. . tries some reconnect cycle, but ends unresponsive
00:20:55 <grey_gandalf> might be due to the mail client in the background? I don't know
00:21:26 <nsITobin> I will never understand the tendancy to discount literal years of work with regular structured releases and just be regarded as old and insecure.
00:22:21 <nsITobin> but yet a barely changed 64bit rebuild can get you fame and noteriaty and land you a job
00:22:26 <grey_gandalf> I did not want to stir up sentiment about what and was not.. just wanted to refute frg_Away  about macos 10.9 not up to web, since with (hateful) chromium I can browser even crappy sites as github and youtube. CPU and nVidia video are more than enough.
00:22:45 <grey_gandalf> so I would love seamonkey there :)
00:23:10 <grey_gandalf> I know there are few contributors.... firefox itself is dying. Mozilla made bad decisions
00:23:20 <grey_gandalf> but whole OpenSource is alittle bit dried up... sadly
00:23:44 <nsITobin> well it sucks no doubt.. dropping compat because of no real technical reason except the deps have dropped support sucks and the maintaince burdon is real if you go against it.. There will be some for windows 7 and 8x going forward that will have to be kept an eye on.
00:24:10 <nsITobin> such as this rust thing
00:24:30 <grey_gandalf> I am typing from windows7 right now... it is get thin there with many apps, but it is one of the best windows releases around. I just hate the looks of windows8 and later
00:24:31 <frg_Away> I only see that ram usage gets up fast even in Chrome and media playback is not even so so on old systems. So anything below 4GB and Core ix first or second gen ist ripe for the museum.
00:24:51 <grey_gandalf> my laptop would support windows 8, but now windows 11... and support of windows7 and windows8 is about the same
00:25:27 <grey_gandalf> CHrome is a ram sucker indeed... that is why I bet seamonkey on the same system would be more usable
00:25:52 <grey_gandalf> I have firefox 78 there and - for what it can - it works usable... seamonkey is "about there" but with newer certificates and such
00:25:59 <frg_Away> 11 can be installed unofficial or grab a cheap server 2025 license. Bit as bad as 11 but not ggod either. I stick with Server 2019 and 2022.
00:26:04 <grey_gandalf> instantly.. most ESR firefoxes wil die because of certificates
00:26:33 <frg_Away> Browse a bit on amazon or epay and you will hit 2GB fast.
00:27:03 <nsITobin> i can't recommend kmspico because its not a legal product and especially because many sites bundle shit with a download. Nope can't recommend it at all.
00:27:06 <grey_gandalf> I have 4GB expandable to 8... if I find compatible DIMMS.. MacBooks are so "finky" :)... of course, I do not use it for daily web development
00:27:31 <grey_gandalf> but for graphics and objective-c programming it works great, the display is great.. and it still has a replacable battery!
00:27:49 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: you mentioned gnustep is that an intrest of yours?
00:28:02 <frg_Away> If may mac can take 4 or 8 then it should be capable of running 10.11
00:28:38 <grey_gandalf> just looks the same as other Macs... but a user can exchange the battery. Then they thought... too easy.. you ned to go to the apple store :)
00:29:03 <grey_gandalf> the same is this windows 11 older laptop.. two latches, change battery. Newer HP laptops.. screwed in, like macs
00:29:22 <nsITobin> I am gonna readd the motif widget to seamonkey .. well more accurately I am gonna fail to readd it.. I am gonna try.. that and a qt widget
00:29:36 <grey_gandalf> nsITobin: yes, of course, I love objective-c and am a 20 year old programmer of gnustep and old mac systems (thats why I have them)
00:29:48 <nsITobin> and gtk2 and gtk1.. out of all of those at LEAST one should be done in five years
00:30:16 <grey_gandalf> I got into this whole rappit hole of ArcticFox and SeaMonkey just because it started not to be available on my systems
00:30:21 <grey_gandalf> gtk1? come on... let it die
00:30:30 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: make me
00:30:31 <grey_gandalf> gtk2 is a good comprimise
00:30:34 <nsITobin> fine then qt1
00:30:48 <frg_Away> I own a mac mini late 2012. Last one where you could change ram and ssd.
00:30:53 <frg_Away> gtk2 is dead
00:31:06 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: thing is if i do gtk2 i would have to do it as a seperate codepath not just revert it.. something I can just patch in real quick for whatever
00:31:27 <nsITobin> frg_Away: don't.. make me fork gtk2 because I have nearly done it three times in the past year
00:31:41 <frg_Away> still dead :)
00:31:45 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: just a little bit newer than my MBP...
00:31:51 <grey_gandalf> yes, dead, but useful :)
00:32:10 <nsITobin> yeah well the Desktop Toolkit (DTK) won't be dead frg_Away
00:32:24 <grey_gandalf> I don't kow how to program it. ArcticFox still uses gtk2.. I actually imported most of gtk3 patches, it compiles and owrks, but somehow looks uglier...
00:32:57 <grey_gandalf> if, then Motif! I had a sweet spot for Motif... when I was young I loved the official systems, Sun, SGI with their Motif. It was very clean
00:33:07 <grey_gandalf> but at the end, had to let it go
00:33:19 <nsITobin> cde lives
00:33:27 <nsITobin> needs multi-monitor support
00:33:28 <nsITobin> LOL
00:33:37 <nsITobin> I compiled and ran it..
00:34:45 <nsITobin> rest well frg
00:35:35 <nsITobin> thing about gtk2 is.. it will stay basically unbroken for a good long time.. what won't is seamonkey
00:37:13 <nsITobin> without more contributors and people who can see beyond the hype and the next monitized openweb product there is only so much that can be done
00:37:27 <nsITobin> and the likes of all of us are already exceeding that
00:38:09 <grey_gandalf> I know that...
00:38:20 <nsITobin> yeah
00:38:23 <grey_gandalf> but essentially seamonkey should jsut use gecko from mozilla, so we are Mozilla dependent
00:38:39 <grey_gandalf> it is even stupid that mozilla didn't understand seamonkey and thunderbird
00:38:56 <grey_gandalf> and makde firefox some sort of crippled chrome in rustc :)
00:40:17 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: unlike the kinds of projects you and I run bold sweeping changes in direction can't happen over night there is a LOT more to consider for seamonkey than would be for one of our forks.. Are you aware of what Mozilla did after quantum?
00:41:44 <nsITobin> rdf gone, xul templates gone, xbl gone, xul overlays gone.. tho we have a js polyfill from thunderbird same one waterfox used..
00:42:30 <nsITobin> seamonkey suite on central right now has no functionality because it has no nsSuiteGlue that works
00:43:26 <nsITobin> and mozilla the platform? while it still technically allows you to BUILD seamonkey it won't allow you to RUN seamonkey there are hardcodes for thunderbrid and firefox everywhere and suite checks are .. bitrotted to a degree
00:44:08 <nsITobin> Mozilla doesn't even have the xpcom binary or js component loader anymore
00:44:21 <nsITobin> the dynamic one
00:44:40 <nsITobin> anything traditionally xpcom has to be static registered as an esmodule or a cpp component in-tree
00:50:01 <nsITobin> hey the grey_gandalf i do get the feeling we all been politely asked to kinda reduce the off-topic noise a bit especially since frg mentioned it before you came in.
00:53:42 <grey_gandalf> sorry.. I read everything, but apparently SM IRC is quite unstable on windows... it displays chat, but cannot type adn windows becomes greyish not respoding. It will respond again in the sense it shows text, but cannot type
00:53:47 <grey_gandalf> interesting event issue
00:54:02 <grey_gandalf> yes, I read everything. Firefox is going down the drain, they remove their own legacy
00:54:15 <grey_gandalf> is generic mozilla chat out-of-topic noise?
00:54:18 <grey_gandalf> wouldn't thin so
01:06:28 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: no and its not actually like that
01:06:42 <nsITobin> even i start talking too much getting off on random tangents
01:07:14 <nsITobin> obviously my phrasing still needs some tweaks
01:07:25 <nsITobin> still better than five years ago
01:08:08 <nsITobin> or go on some big whole thing about something half soapbox and sideshow spectical
01:08:11 <nsITobin> you know grey_gandalf
01:09:15 <nsITobin> just a second.. a cat is trying to make off with my roasted chicken dinner
01:14:41 <grey_gandalf> things are still compiling here... apparently 2.53.20 is quite big... but also promising... 2.12 AM, going to bed!
02:02:35 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: i would guess so compared to something tycho-based
02:47:06 <nsITobin> I think build tools version of visual studio actually builds faster than the tools shipped with the ide
02:47:09 <nsITobin> figure that out
07:50:58 <grey_gandalf_> for frg: compilation now continues thankst o your patch, but I have link issques with sqlite
07:51:05 <grey_gandalf_> https://pastebin.com/yTxpksgw
07:51:32 <grey_gandalf_> seems all math functions are not linked on FreeBSD
12:32:59 <tomman> I should _really_ live the experience of compiling a Mozilla product one of these days
12:33:10 <tomman> ...is 16GB RAM enough to build SeaMonkey these days?
13:55:51 <frg_Away> grey_gandalf is it using ld or lld from clang? looks like ld. try setting the linker manually
13:56:35 <frg_Away> tomman 16GB is enough
13:56:55 <frg_Away> Just needs something 4+ physical cores or it will be slooooowwwwww
15:00:46 <nsITobin> I have a problem.. my more advanced handling of http headers is running into limitations I think it has some flaws or I am trying to code something more sophisticated than I actually need or can make full use of right now..
15:26:42 <nsITobin> that should be the last reboot for those who have join/part messages on
15:28:04 <nsITobin> as for my PHP problem I may have to opt for a simpler approch in dealing with sending output headers least until I fix or actually understand what I wrote lol
15:45:55 <nsITobin> there eliminated it and fell back to my old more manual management of sending http headers
16:04:28 <nsITobin> and that fixed a ton of bugs actually.. it was a good idea but needs more cooktime.. i think it was overthought for the purpose it needs to serve
16:05:15 <nsITobin> now basic auth works perfectly and all my recursive error issues have vanished.
16:06:15 <nsITobin> the temptation to dazzle with sophistication is hard to resist
16:06:33 <nsITobin> doesn't mean spit if it doesn't work though
17:20:42 <nsITobin> nsAccount->RegisterUser() works nsAccount->Authenticate() works also GetAllUsers and GetUser need a way to update a user's email and password
18:03:06 <grey_gandalf_> frg_Away: I do not set anything in my .mozconfig. At a first glance it looks like it is using lib.bfd from usr/local... so it might come from some package
18:03:14 <grey_gandalf_> to what should I set it in your opinion?
19:16:33 <frg_Away> I am not sure lld or lld-link maybe
19:27:47 <grey_gandalf_> I have both lld and lld-link with the macthing clang suffix (e.g. lld-link15)
19:27:57 <grey_gandalf_> should I just export LD=lld-link15 ?
19:32:54 <frg_Away> try just lld first
19:38:49 <nsITobin> ok got my control panel's most basic paths layed out.. now I need to import smarty because my basic substutions ain't gonna be enough for listing things like multiple sql results in a table for instance.