from rdf to xbl to xul to xpinstall .. it was an xml technology utopia

and then google happened

granted the build system was utter trash and it was hard to build.. today mozilla-central is easy to build but the build system is a new kind of utter trash

Camino

because Firefox was never meant for Macintosh

just Linux and Windows

t doesn't matter what was and wasn't. We unfortunately need to deal with reality and the future is bleak with so few contributors. Palemoon and SeaMonkey are probably the ones with the biggest dev base but it not enough.

our last hope was expecting to get Google dismantled a-la-Bell System, alas that's not happening anymore

It wouldn't change nothing. We still need to do catch up, mozilla would be in serious trouble and the time does not stand still. Some other big player like MS would just trow a few millions in the put and create another bunch of shoddy browser features.

^in the pot

FrankLion might be right and Microsoft's influence if they try may not be enough with everyone else having a chrome client

he may also be right that too much chaos is going on to make any accurate predictions

i feel like people are screaming out for these kinds of projects but are hesitating for some reason ..

I do know there is some fear of open source going around thanks to all those high profile security news stories last year .. youtube influencers suggesting that projects with less than a thousand people or not backed by a large company shouldn't be trusted anymore

that hasn't helped

a decade of "old and insecure" hasn't help either

and maybe I am getting old and insecure.. but the software ain't ;)

back! sorry guys, but I was connected from windows with SeaMonkey and it appears it gets some long hangs and then disconnects.. . tries some reconnect cycle, but ends unresponsive

might be due to the mail client in the background? I don't know

I will never understand the tendancy to discount literal years of work with regular structured releases and just be regarded as old and insecure.

but yet a barely changed 64bit rebuild can get you fame and noteriaty and land you a job

I did not want to stir up sentiment about what and was not.. just wanted to refute frg_Away about macos 10.9 not up to web, since with (hateful) chromium I can browser even crappy sites as github and youtube. CPU and nVidia video are more than enough.

so I would love seamonkey there :)

I know there are few contributors.... firefox itself is dying. Mozilla made bad decisions

but whole OpenSource is alittle bit dried up... sadly

well it sucks no doubt.. dropping compat because of no real technical reason except the deps have dropped support sucks and the maintaince burdon is real if you go against it.. There will be some for windows 7 and 8x going forward that will have to be kept an eye on.

such as this rust thing

I am typing from windows7 right now... it is get thin there with many apps, but it is one of the best windows releases around. I just hate the looks of windows8 and later

I only see that ram usage gets up fast even in Chrome and media playback is not even so so on old systems. So anything below 4GB and Core ix first or second gen ist ripe for the museum.

my laptop would support windows 8, but now windows 11... and support of windows7 and windows8 is about the same

CHrome is a ram sucker indeed... that is why I bet seamonkey on the same system would be more usable

I have firefox 78 there and - for what it can - it works usable... seamonkey is "about there" but with newer certificates and such

11 can be installed unofficial or grab a cheap server 2025 license. Bit as bad as 11 but not ggod either. I stick with Server 2019 and 2022.

instantly.. most ESR firefoxes wil die because of certificates

Browse a bit on amazon or epay and you will hit 2GB fast.

i can't recommend kmspico because its not a legal product and especially because many sites bundle shit with a download. Nope can't recommend it at all.

I have 4GB expandable to 8... if I find compatible DIMMS.. MacBooks are so "finky" :)... of course, I do not use it for daily web development

but for graphics and objective-c programming it works great, the display is great.. and it still has a replacable battery!

grey_gandalf: you mentioned gnustep is that an intrest of yours?

If may mac can take 4 or 8 then it should be capable of running 10.11

just looks the same as other Macs... but a user can exchange the battery. Then they thought... too easy.. you ned to go to the apple store :)

the same is this windows 11 older laptop.. two latches, change battery. Newer HP laptops.. screwed in, like macs

I am gonna readd the motif widget to seamonkey .. well more accurately I am gonna fail to readd it.. I am gonna try.. that and a qt widget

nsITobin: yes, of course, I love objective-c and am a 20 year old programmer of gnustep and old mac systems (thats why I have them)

and gtk2 and gtk1.. out of all of those at LEAST one should be done in five years

I got into this whole rappit hole of ArcticFox and SeaMonkey just because it started not to be available on my systems

gtk1? come on... let it die

grey_gandalf: make me

gtk2 is a good comprimise

fine then qt1

I own a mac mini late 2012. Last one where you could change ram and ssd.

gtk2 is dead

grey_gandalf: thing is if i do gtk2 i would have to do it as a seperate codepath not just revert it.. something I can just patch in real quick for whatever

frg_Away: don't.. make me fork gtk2 because I have nearly done it three times in the past year

still dead :)

frg_Away: just a little bit newer than my MBP...

yes, dead, but useful :)

yeah well the Desktop Toolkit (DTK) won't be dead frg_Away

I don't kow how to program it. ArcticFox still uses gtk2.. I actually imported most of gtk3 patches, it compiles and owrks, but somehow looks uglier...

if, then Motif! I had a sweet spot for Motif... when I was young I loved the official systems, Sun, SGI with their Motif. It was very clean

but at the end, had to let it go

cde lives

needs multi-monitor support

LOL

I compiled and ran it..

rest well frg

thing about gtk2 is.. it will stay basically unbroken for a good long time.. what won't is seamonkey

without more contributors and people who can see beyond the hype and the next monitized openweb product there is only so much that can be done

and the likes of all of us are already exceeding that

I know that...

yeah

but essentially seamonkey should jsut use gecko from mozilla, so we are Mozilla dependent

it is even stupid that mozilla didn't understand seamonkey and thunderbird

and makde firefox some sort of crippled chrome in rustc :)

grey_gandalf: unlike the kinds of projects you and I run bold sweeping changes in direction can't happen over night there is a LOT more to consider for seamonkey than would be for one of our forks.. Are you aware of what Mozilla did after quantum?

rdf gone, xul templates gone, xbl gone, xul overlays gone.. tho we have a js polyfill from thunderbird same one waterfox used..

seamonkey suite on central right now has no functionality because it has no nsSuiteGlue that works

and mozilla the platform? while it still technically allows you to BUILD seamonkey it won't allow you to RUN seamonkey there are hardcodes for thunderbrid and firefox everywhere and suite checks are .. bitrotted to a degree

Mozilla doesn't even have the xpcom binary or js component loader anymore

the dynamic one

anything traditionally xpcom has to be static registered as an esmodule or a cpp component in-tree

hey the grey_gandalf i do get the feeling we all been politely asked to kinda reduce the off-topic noise a bit especially since frg mentioned it before you came in.

sorry.. I read everything, but apparently SM IRC is quite unstable on windows... it displays chat, but cannot type adn windows becomes greyish not respoding. It will respond again in the sense it shows text, but cannot type

interesting event issue

yes, I read everything. Firefox is going down the drain, they remove their own legacy

is generic mozilla chat out-of-topic noise?

wouldn't thin so

grey_gandalf: no and its not actually like that

even i start talking too much getting off on random tangents

obviously my phrasing still needs some tweaks

still better than five years ago

or go on some big whole thing about something half soapbox and sideshow spectical

you know grey_gandalf

just a second.. a cat is trying to make off with my roasted chicken dinner

things are still compiling here... apparently 2.53.20 is quite big... but also promising... 2.12 AM, going to bed!

grey_gandalf: i would guess so compared to something tycho-based

I think build tools version of visual studio actually builds faster than the tools shipped with the ide

figure that out

for frg: compilation now continues thankst o your patch, but I have link issques with sqlite

seems all math functions are not linked on FreeBSD

I should _really_ live the experience of compiling a Mozilla product one of these days

...is 16GB RAM enough to build SeaMonkey these days?

grey_gandalf is it using ld or lld from clang? looks like ld. try setting the linker manually

tomman 16GB is enough

Just needs something 4+ physical cores or it will be slooooowwwwww

I have a problem.. my more advanced handling of http headers is running into limitations I think it has some flaws or I am trying to code something more sophisticated than I actually need or can make full use of right now..

that should be the last reboot for those who have join/part messages on

as for my PHP problem I may have to opt for a simpler approch in dealing with sending output headers least until I fix or actually understand what I wrote lol

there eliminated it and fell back to my old more manual management of sending http headers

and that fixed a ton of bugs actually.. it was a good idea but needs more cooktime.. i think it was overthought for the purpose it needs to serve

now basic auth works perfectly and all my recursive error issues have vanished.

the temptation to dazzle with sophistication is hard to resist

doesn't mean spit if it doesn't work though

nsAccount->RegisterUser() works nsAccount->Authenticate() works also GetAllUsers and GetUser need a way to update a user's email and password

frg_Away: I do not set anything in my .mozconfig. At a first glance it looks like it is using lib.bfd from usr/local... so it might come from some package

to what should I set it in your opinion?

I am not sure lld or lld-link maybe

I have both lld and lld-link with the macthing clang suffix (e.g. lld-link15)

should I just export LD=lld-link15 ?

try just lld first

ok got my control panel's most basic paths layed out.. now I need to import smarty because my basic substutions ain't gonna be enough for listing things like multiple sql results in a table for instance.