00:00:07 <frg_Away> it is in and won't go away. I wish it would but it would take a lot more people to reqrite all the stuff needed then.
00:00:49 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: also it infected svg...
00:00:51 <nsITobin> at least half a dozen malcontents or a dozen reasonable people i suspect to get any progress
00:01:06 <nsITobin> for style without rust
00:01:15 <grey_gandalf> but it is really proving a mess of a language in its environment.. at the beginning I just though "oh no, just another useless language", now I hate it for the way it is
00:02:18 <grey_gandalf> at the end C and C++ are lingua franca, portable.... this is why webkit and blink are so successful. Ever thought about that?
00:02:37 <grey_gandalf> only hard-core fans like me with distrust in google use Firefox
00:03:03 <nsITobin> who uses firefox?
00:03:47 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: would you use firefox if it was like this.. but actually completed not just a proof of concept? https://binaryoutcast.com/res/www.binaryoutcast.com/content//updates//fireforks/protofox.png
00:04:14 <frg_Away> more hardcore people only when manifest v3 is the only thing. Curreently use Vivaldi but then I need to rethink.
00:04:45 <grey_gandalf> but Vivaldi is again wrapped chormium
00:05:08 <grey_gandalf> I use firefox daily... and a little bit of seamonkey.
00:05:45 <grey_gandalf> nsITobin: it is not so different from real firefox?
00:06:00 <grey_gandalf> the hamburger menu is ugly, as the tabs
00:06:10 <grey_gandalf> and the unified toolbar is an insult to developed intelligence
00:06:11 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: well i started scraping off its style.. i'd have tor estyle the tabs and urlbar
00:06:16 <nsITobin> likely rework the urlbar
00:06:18 <nsITobin> entirely
00:06:22 <grey_gandalf> I opened bgus against it back then, but...
00:06:32 <nsITobin> but it IS possible to get even MODERN firefox started down a path to some UX sanity
00:06:53 <nsITobin> well until they switch it to html html and not xhtml with some xul
00:07:01 <nsITobin> cause we will loose the toolkit styling
00:07:09 <nsITobin> html rendered chrome has no implicit styling
00:07:22 <nsITobin> chrome as in .. you know what i mean grey_gandalf
00:07:54 <grey_gandalf> yeah we called chrome before chrome made theirs :)
00:08:07 <grey_gandalf> chrome's UI is terrible... nad firefox folllowed it a lot
00:08:19 <grey_gandalf> the rendering egning is, I must admit, decent sometimes
00:08:23 <nsITobin> Google Chrome was created by pissed off mozila ex-employees i always understood
00:08:38 <grey_gandalf> I am sometimes amazed by webkit on my mac
00:09:04 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: if you are a good coder what we NEED is restored desktop embeeding of modern mozilla.. then we can IE tab the fucker even into SeaMonkey 1.1
00:09:41 <nsITobin> i need to reduce my cursing its getting excessive even for me sorry..
00:10:05 <grey_gandalf> ahah yes...
00:10:41 <grey_gandalf> I am a moderate coder, good but slow ... brilliant in certain things, but a sucker in big things like mozilla
00:11:00 <grey_gandalf> I noticed in using backports ...
00:11:06 <grey_gandalf> I am a coder, but in the GNUstep world
00:11:33 <grey_gandalf> yes, loss of embedding was cursed by a lot of people that left gecko disgruntled for WebKit and Blink
00:11:46 <grey_gandalf> I think MOzilla FOundation di dsooo many thigns wrong to position itself into meaningless
00:14:11 <grey_gandalf> today my coding stamina was taken away by trying to modernize the WebP decoder of ArcticFox to StreamingLexer.....
00:18:51 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: well you need anything from me you know where I am aside from here.. Also i need to relist ArcticFox on thereisonlyxul.org since I started listing everyone again
00:26:20 <grey_gandalf> If you ever want to help to improve the styles of it again, welcome
00:26:36 <grey_gandalf> seamonkey is still compiling, that's good
00:29:18 <nsITobin> i dunno something about taking a xul codebase whichever era is best suited.. stripping out its browser capabilities as far as being able to browse on http and making it a general application framework is compelling to me
00:30:58 <nsITobin> people don't seem to have a problem using qt or gtk with similar functionality but what kills it for them is the god damned web.. not that any of that is relevant to seamonkey
00:31:32 <nsITobin> even with thunderbird today people can't see mozilla any further than web browser.. not even mozilla
00:31:51 <nsITobin> well now AI ad company and browser
00:31:53 <nsITobin> but still
00:37:21 <grey_gandalf> Mozilla is in a very sad state
00:37:38 <grey_gandalf> I never liked thunderbird.... I use SeaMonkey also for its mail!
00:38:03 <grey_gandalf> now mostly for its mail... also for the fact that seamonkey runs on my old macbook pro! but not on the oldest MBP sadly... shoudl try compilation or backports somewhen
00:41:59 <frg_Away> 10.11 is minimum. Needed tester for 10.9 one time and no one came forward so kicked 10.9 and 10.10
00:43:51 <grey_gandalf> I have 10.9 :)
00:44:25 <grey_gandalf> actually for some strange reason my 10.9 MBP is faster than my 10.11, I don't know if it is a different model or the effect of the OS. CPU is in theory quiite smilar
00:44:29 <frg_Away> anything 10.9 should be able to run 10.11 if I am not mistaken.
00:44:35 <grey_gandalf> 10.11 works fine
00:45:00 <grey_gandalf> no, it doesn't start... maybe some trick is needed.. or maybe it can be compiled with 10.9 target.. should be attempted. I will perhaps
00:45:04 <grey_gandalf> had other stuff on my hands
00:45:16 <frg_Away> I took out some 10.9 stuff.
00:45:30 <grey_gandalf> bad... coulò be put back in
00:45:53 <grey_gandalf> anyway... more important is FreeBSD which is my workstation and much more current
00:46:06 <grey_gandalf> compilation faisl. In rust code. No doubt... shitty rust
00:46:39 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: what level do you suppose your codebase is at xul wise and html wise
00:46:44 <nsITobin> at this point
00:47:15 <grey_gandalf> "feature has been removed" oh heck ???
00:47:58 <grey_gandalf> https://pastebin.com/vJyCBAMR
00:48:08 <frg_Away> needs a patch if higher than 1.73.
00:48:25 <grey_gandalf> rust version ?
00:48:37 <frg_Away> Bug 1896958
00:49:24 <frg_Away> can't put it in unless you want win 7 8 and macos 10.11 support removed.
00:50:31 <grey_gandalf> no please win7 and 10.11 are vital :) and one of the main reasons to use SeaMonkey
00:51:02 <frg_Away> I might have sacrificed 10.11 but not 7 and 8
00:51:29 <grey_gandalf> why does this tupid rust issue cause 10.11 sacrifice?
00:51:44 <grey_gandalf> I have rust 1.81 apparently... installed by freebsd
00:51:50 <grey_gandalf> let me try the patch then
00:52:26 <nsITobin> frg_Away: can't we ifdef it somehow to rust version it is compiled with?
00:52:28 <frg_Away> read the comments and thank the rust maintainers
00:52:32 <frg_Away> nope
00:52:49 <nsITobin> those rat bastards
00:53:16 <grey_gandalf> ah... iditos of rust removed compiler support.. are the nuts?
00:53:20 <nsITobin> can we access crates living in the objdir.. preprocess it anyway?
00:53:20 <grey_gandalf> did I say I hate rust?
00:53:30 <nsITobin> frg_Away:
00:53:35 <grey_gandalf> I have up to gcc 14 on MacOS 10.5 thanks to macporrts... it can do wonders
00:53:51 <grey_gandalf> and also very recent clang on all my MB and MBPs
00:54:58 <frg_Away> nsITobin I won't try. Need to provide a diffrent cargo.lock and other stuff. Not sure this is even remotely possible.
00:55:32 <nsITobin> right..
00:55:34 <nsITobin> that
00:55:37 <nsITobin> ugh
00:56:15 <nsITobin> it's literally worse than a virtualenv
00:57:47 <grey_gandalf> is "patch" for you patch enough, Frank?
00:57:51 <grey_gandalf> I just applied it ...
00:57:54 <grey_gandalf>  1:23.38 error: failed to load source for dependency `any_all_workaround`
00:58:26 <frg_Away> might need a fix
00:58:48 <frg_Away> or a clobber
00:59:02 <nsITobin> if you applied it after a build failure.. clobber
00:59:25 <frg_Away> prewtty sure <i tried it with 2.53.20 and Windows
01:00:01 <grey_gandalf> https://pastebin.com/n93A7GcD
01:00:27 <grey_gandalf> is it downlaging stuff from git as I looks like?
01:00:49 <grey_gandalf> if I clobber, it will take another hour or so, rill run it while I'll atttempt some sleep :()
01:00:59 <grey_gandalf> but have a look at the issue before
01:02:43 <frg_Away> use mach vendor rust in thr SeaMonkey source dir
01:04:11 <grey_gandalf> mozversioncontrol.InvalidRepoPath: Unknown VCS, or not a source checkout: /usr/home/multix/code/seamonkey-2.53.20
01:04:22 <grey_gandalf> well, yes, I just unpacked the tarball
01:05:32 <grey_gandalf> your patch does work only if I have a git checkout?
01:06:51 <frg_Away> I will take a look. So far no one complained. Checxk the obsolete patches if they are better.
01:11:01 <nsITobin> frg_Away: so btw vs2022 17.6 ltsc .. the debugger crashes on windows 7 ..
01:13:55 <grey_gandalf> I clobbered... will report
01:14:08 <grey_gandalf> do you read the ML? or should I report on the bug if you are not here?
01:14:22 <nsITobin> bugs
01:14:31 <nsITobin> lol
01:15:02 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: the channel is logged
01:16:21 <nsITobin> various community provided resources like the logbots are now being collected here https://seamonkey.thereisonlyxul.org/
01:17:30 <frg_Away> grey_gandalf let me know here and I will see if I need to update the patch the. Reading the log
01:20:06 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: I'd love to eventually get some slightly more modern form of mozdev built but maybe once various pieces exist
01:27:52 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: with a make clobber, it fails early without attempting compilation with the error I gave in pastebin. SO apparently it is trying to use soem git repositories it can't
01:28:26 <grey_gandalf> nsITobin: ArcticFox is currently kind of a Frankenstein between FF49 and FF50 recadring dom/layout/javascript
01:28:53 <frg_Away> might have missed some sources in the patch. The stupid workaroudn isn't even needed because we don't do android.
01:31:36 <nsITobin> frg_Away: so why do we need it?
01:31:47 <grey_gandalf> let me know! for today, I am KO...
01:32:11 <grey_gandalf> darn, someone updated bugzilla and now it is hard to read with seamonkey 2.53.18 :( I hope .20 will improve that
01:32:29 <nsITobin> it is even broken on uxp as well
01:32:46 <nsITobin> i have too many browsers installed
01:32:48 <frg_Away> nope. web components, private class fields and dynamic imports. You need another browser here now.
01:33:25 <nsITobin> explains why its partly functional.. they have dynamic importants but webcomponents isn't nearly as complete as I thought it was
01:34:58 <nsITobin> edge doesn't know what to do with a file so it opens firefox firefox knows its supposed to be opened by seamonkey because it also doesn't know.. then SEAMONKEY knows to open my file in an archive manager .. but this only happens SOMETIMES
01:35:33 <nsITobin> sometimes i get a zip to the file manager in edge or firefox.. before it opens seamonkey
01:35:38 <nsITobin> it's a mess
01:36:18 <frg_Away> and the current bugzilla website is worse than the old one. Clunky and slow even in Vivaldi.
01:36:32 <frg_Away> But hey its modern...
01:36:34 <nsITobin> yeah i noticed that recently too in edge
01:37:15 <nsITobin> of course the mozilla wiki likes to play games every release with pin the tail on the ua string to not get mobile version
02:15:57 <nsITobin> frg_Away: before you pass out does --with-visual-studio-verson work with buildtools only?
02:16:24 <frg_Away> nsITobin i never tested
02:16:33 <nsITobin> I'll let you know
02:16:48 <frg_Away> Parses the vswhere output so 50/50
02:17:04 <nsITobin> vswhere sees it
02:17:15 <nsITobin> using the same options configure calls it with so hopeful?
02:17:32 <nsITobin> sees both i wanna be able to have both on the same VM
02:19:13 <nsITobin> so i am hopeful https://i.ibb.co/ZYZD8qk/image.png
02:21:09 <frg_Away> You still need to set the compiler to cl in the mozconfig or it will pick clang but that is trivial
02:24:01 <nsITobin> frg_Away: unless my refactored vs version specific startshell batch files take care of it
02:24:54 <nsITobin> egar to find out
02:25:07 <frg_Away> I test clang now and then so need both working
02:25:37 <frg_Away> x86 only compiles with clang
02:30:07 <nsITobin> i tried to compile with clang it failed but that was like early 2024
02:30:52 <frg_Away> It already worked then.
02:31:32 <nsITobin> well i was having a lot of issues then as well some of them technical
02:31:42 <nsITobin> soo likely was doing it wrong you know
02:32:25 <nsITobin> or it was fedora 39
02:32:34 <nsITobin> haven't tried on el8 or windows
02:33:12 <frg_Away> Might be a then incompatibility with later clang or other stuff.
02:40:46 <nsITobin> or operator error
02:41:16 <frg_Away> pebkac
02:42:58 <nsITobin> so there is a flaw in my batch file.. it doesn't know how to do anything but ask and pick the first one.. i actually used vswhere to get the vcdir to launch vcvars
02:43:56 <nsITobin> removed -latest sets 2019 first providing you only have 2019 and 2022 installed using that for now
02:51:36 <frg_Away> nighty night with a last 2.53 gitlab update
02:51:45 <nsITobin> rest well
03:35:23 <tomman> once again, got Cuckflared here
03:35:38 <tomman> the latest offender: Wine deployed that bastard crap on their website
03:35:52 <tomman> now I can't contribute anymore to the AppDB because I can't get past goddamned Turnsickle tonight
03:38:56 <tomman> finally, it took me TWENTY FIVE TIMES to get past Clownflare Turnsickle tonight
03:39:38 <Ximo> clownflare hasn't bitched up the DNS protocol this week, give them a rest :>
03:40:19 <tomman> it's an active war
03:40:28 <tomman> there will never be rest until those clowns implode
03:40:38 <Ximo> never been a fan of CF
03:40:45 <tomman> not even the MICROS~1 of ancient ages was THIS evil
03:40:54 <Ximo> tend to agree
03:43:59 <Ximo> this is how CF and so many other business models work: 1) enter a deregulated space.  2) abuse deregulated space.  3) lobby for standards in deregulated space.  4) own the regulated space (with standards they helped write)
03:44:00 <nsITobin> tomman: did you try going to wine and bitching?
03:44:09 <nsITobin> i was in there recently and didn't get banned
03:44:15 <nsITobin> so that shows at least some promise?
03:44:16 <tomman> nsITobin: Actually yes, I ranted at their IRC channel
03:44:21 <tomman> but it's largely dead these days
03:44:24 <nsITobin> did you get banned?
03:44:32 <tomman> never expected to rant about CF at Wine of all places
03:44:36 <tomman> well, not really
03:46:10 <Ximo> and CF is a business, not a charity... they're not some "for the greater good" they're for an exit strategy
03:46:50 <Ximo> and they got really really good at making it stupid easy to throw a website behind a scrubber before anyone else in the game
03:47:33 <tomman> hope their "exit strategy" is "6 feet under"
03:48:08 <nsITobin> Ximo: i want a preference to DISABLE the HTML5 parser and use the expat based html content sink
04:41:57 <nsITobin> tomman: there how was that
04:44:13 <nsITobin> good night
05:44:08 <Harzilein> recently i saw some browser proposal along the lines of rendering only (or at least not a lot of javascript, for example throwing away the dom), but with a stele-like (as was the term used by classilla) backend for easy "patches". in the case of the browser proposal that i'm somehow no longer able to find it also included the ability to pre-render with cef though, which is probably not something we'd all eager to have.
05:44:39 <Harzilein> +be
05:46:27 <Harzilein> still, if someone remembers the same thing (i did some light searching on hn to try and find it again, but may have been from anything else just as well) would be glad to have it pointed out to me.
06:44:56 <Harzilein> i also forgot my latest insulting cf situation...
13:22:12 <njsg> 0128|03:38:28 <+tomman> not even the MICROS~1 of ancient ages was THIS evil <- I somehow feel that the new Cloudflare system is *exactly* how Microsoft would do it in a way
13:22:49 <njsg> they started with something more compatible and once they had the ability to they ditched support for most browsers and radically changed the service they provide
13:23:58 <njsg> my latest CF situation was five minutes ago. random wiki site (wikia-backed?) started deploying cloudflare after a few requests
13:24:05 <tomman> "butbutbut CF provides a useful service"
13:24:12 <njsg> no, they don't
13:24:19 <tomman> know who also provide useful services? The Sicilian Mafia
13:24:21 <njsg> unless supporting only four or five browsers is useful to you
13:24:40 <njsg> entities I never heard back from regarding CF usage include OSM and the W3C.
13:25:23 <njsg> W3C said they were going to "look into it" or similar, no idea if anything ever came out of that, and I don't think I've got any reply after that
13:27:06 <tomman> W3C aka Google's web standards rubberstamping department
14:16:47 <nsITobin> applying 1405407-1-255.patch
14:16:47 <nsITobin> warning: Watchman unavailable: watchman exited with code 1
14:16:47 <nsITobin> applying 1405407-2-255.patch
14:16:47 <nsITobin> patching file suite/confvars.sh
14:16:47 <nsITobin> Hunk #1 FAILED at 6
14:16:48 <nsITobin> Hunk #2 FAILED at 37
14:16:50 <nsITobin> 2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file suite/confvars.sh.rej
14:16:52 <nsITobin> patch failed, unable to continue (try -v)
14:16:54 <nsITobin> warning: Watchman unavailable: watchman exited with code 1
14:16:56 <nsITobin> patch failed, rejects left in working directory
14:16:58 <nsITobin> errors during apply, please fix and qrefresh 1405407-2-255.patch
14:17:31 <nsITobin> also how can I kill that watchman warning
14:17:46 <nsITobin> it only happens on some hg repos like comm but not mozilla
14:21:40 <nsITobin> this is the patch that changes extensions from using the platform extensions dir leftover from xpfe to adding your own build logic.. how did this get out of wack.. its been there for a long while.. I can fix it locally but it is strange
14:27:50 <nsITobin> idgi
14:39:09 <nsITobin> WIP Patch Queue is busted @ 1405407-2-255.patch
14:39:24 <nsITobin> cleared it downloaded it all again
14:39:43 <nsITobin> unless the hg sources have been updated as well
14:39:51 <nsITobin> and my bundle is out of date
14:41:46 <nsITobin> doesn't look like it..
14:42:14 <frg_Away> nsITobin will check
14:53:19 <frg> nsITobin I think your bundle is out of date https://ibb.co/510K1sV
14:53:21 <frg> Can you check if you have Bug 1583369 in. comm got updated with mozilla the last time.
15:12:29 <nsITobin> sorry frg_Away i went to do dishes
15:12:39 <frg_Away> np
15:13:02 <nsITobin> I'll clone from heptapod and then update my bundles later on
15:22:30 <nsITobin> maybe later on build a function into the panel of the cci to regenerate the bundles on demand.. that would be halpful.. maybe even helpful
15:34:15 <nsITobin> now head over to frg-central and get the patches again.. and this is gonna work this time.. i am sure of it.. HA!
15:44:36 <nsITobin> it's patchin
15:46:37 <nsITobin> yeah had to be out of date bundles
16:04:14 <nsITobin> still patching
16:25:39 <nsITobin> and ipdl-start
16:25:55 <nsITobin> sorry frg_Away guess it was the out of date bundles
16:33:35 <nsITobin> good news frg_Away i think my older style vs-enabled start_shell seems to have told configure what it wanted ,.. but only a build will tell.. Given the directive in configure does not include -latest when querying vswhere it could be hapenstance and not my batch file as well.. i am sure more research will be needed
16:33:57 <nsITobin> kicked off
16:36:01 <nsITobin> not that multiple vs versions installed old style as in their actual seperate versions can get messy it is by no means a recommended setup.. should always be done with exactly the correct deps on a clean machine.. but this is a dev-work vm so treated like bare metal
16:44:03 <nsITobin> except for operator error it is getting to be a smoother process
17:05:45 <nsITobin> frg_Away: get this.. windows 7 builds seamonkey faster than UXP
17:05:58 <nsITobin> by 3 minutes
17:06:14 <nsITobin> so it was windows 10 adding additional io
17:06:56 <nsITobin> c:/PROGRA~2/MICROS~4/2019/BUILDT~1/VC/Tools/MSVC/1429~1.301/bin/HostX64/x64/cl.exe
17:06:59 <nsITobin> yep
17:07:08 <nsITobin> neat but its all likely fragile
17:09:45 <frg_Away> I just did a build under 2012 R2 because of the later rust failure with the patch and was about 22 minutes. About 6 minutes faster than under 2019. 8.1 strill seems to be the fastest. Has the kernel optimizations carried over to 10 without the later bloat it seems.
17:12:47 <nsITobin> i been sticking with rust 1.76
17:54:46 <nsITobin> well it worked and i am closer to a better setup
17:56:00 <tomman> https://nicole.express/2025/zoo-of-zero-motivation.html
17:56:01 <tomman> > Unfortunately, the W3C has not yet seen to add a WebPcSpeaker API to JavaScript. This is a major oversight, and I recommend all Nicole Express readers who are in charge of standardization committees get that rectified as soon as possible. So we have to use the Web Audio API. Like pretty much anything designed for audio in the modern era, the Web Audio API is not based around square waves,...
17:56:03 <tomman> ...it’s based around samples.
17:56:05 <tomman> LOLOLOLOLOL :D
17:56:16 <tomman> ...well, that would be certainly a better API than attestation this or USB that :D
18:00:48 <nsITobin> computers are not being shipped with speakers
18:01:00 <nsITobin> i have speaker hooked up a pc speaker.. i get no beep
18:01:13 <nsITobin> all i ask for when i turn on a computer is a beep
18:01:21 <nsITobin> no beep
18:01:32 <nsITobin> and i won't wait for my efi to use a javascript api to make it beep
18:18:20 <frg_Away> If it doesn't got electrolytes I don't want it!
18:43:05 <nsITobin> frg_Away: btw if you wanna update the sdk to 22621 it works fine for windows 7 and up
18:43:36 <frg_Away> nsITobin I already did for 2.53.20 :)
18:43:36 <nsITobin> the build system picked up the later version that i installed with 2022
18:43:40 <nsITobin> ah ok good
18:44:11 <nsITobin> context menus should be fixed on windows 11 but i ain't testing it without some actual sandboxed security.. windows 11 is a virus
18:44:37 <nsITobin> by using the later sdk
18:45:07 <nsITobin> properly popup menus context menubar eitehr or.. with a windows 10 sdk it can be degraded
18:45:21 <nsITobin> confused me for a long time cause I didn't understand the nature of the issue
18:46:44 <nsITobin> my god
18:46:58 <nsITobin> hello FrankLion
18:49:25 <nsITobin> the most conserning words anyone should hear is Windows.. with AI
18:49:38 <nsITobin> why is no one concerned on this point in and of its self.
18:49:55 <FrankLion> https://upsilon.black-net.org:8080/seamonkey/20250128#c255907  Chrome was created by a direct collaboration of Google employees and active Mozilla employees
18:50:22 <nsITobin> i should list that logbot too on the new CCI
18:50:32 <nsITobin> half the channel will by logbots by 2030!
18:50:41 <nsITobin> be*
18:51:05 <nsITobin> FrankLion: facinating I thought i remembered former mozilla employees but that was brave
18:51:28 <nsITobin> now that you mention it..
18:51:39 <nsITobin> god there is too much stuff in my head
18:51:52 <nsITobin> need a better file system for my brain
18:52:26 <nsITobin> so did you come all this way just for that?
18:52:36 <nsITobin> cause kinda impressed
18:54:03 <nsITobin> FrankLion: do you happen to remember any other buzz from the time?
18:54:17 <FrankLion> There was a few Google swine working side by side with Mozilla coders back in the day. P.Kasting was one who springs to mind.
18:54:37 <nsITobin> likely responsible for the webidl push and chromium ipc
18:54:40 <nsITobin> same era
18:55:53 <nsITobin> FrankLion: hope the moon people ain't giving you any current trouble
18:57:31 <FrankLion> I recall that Firefox was a proper OS project up until that Google collab and then something changed. Firefox 4 came in and loads of Mozilla guys left because of the new direction.
18:57:53 <nsITobin> the purges
18:58:06 <nsITobin> and saving of skins but not theming apperently
18:58:07 <FrankLion> Nope, the moon people give me no problems
18:58:51 <nsITobin> well good, they need to stay on their worthless lump of rock and out of people's way until they redeem them selves
18:59:04 <nsITobin> I have so sentenced them.
18:59:08 <nsITobin> if that matters lol
19:04:09 <nsITobin> FrankLion: do you believe if the chrome business gets split off from google that edge will take over as primary chromium browser
19:04:49 <nsITobin> putting microsoft back where they once were with a complicit Mozilla who is about ads and data collection for AI than even making a good browser ui?
19:16:00 <FrankLion> I think I see microsoft becoming increasingly irrelevant in the future as desktop flatlines. I reckon also that Mozilla will just get worse and worse as time goes on.
19:16:50 <nsITobin> i think microsoft is starting to consider the web engine to be the OS engine again
19:18:05 <nsITobin> I do know this.. the whatwg will have to be overthrown
19:18:13 <nsITobin> they won't change
19:18:45 <nsITobin> the bright spot is.. the whatwg proved a standards body can just be rendered effectively irrelevant
19:18:45 <FrankLion> These are uncertain times, back in the day it was easier to predict what would happen.
19:18:47 <nsITobin> so..
19:19:23 <FrankLion> https://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=6909435#p6909435
19:21:00 <nsITobin> i find it funny mozillazine is one of the places I am not banned from
19:22:25 <nsITobin> FrankLion: let me hit you with this: w3c and whatwg do all their stuff on github.. owned by microsoft where google makes the standards and mozilla signs off on em and that is all it takes.
19:22:50 <nsITobin> microsoft is already the gatekeeper to web standards
19:22:56 <nsITobin> I am now banned from github
19:23:01 <nsITobin> sooo
19:24:47 <nsITobin> I also know why Mozilla is not the basis of all.. the MPL requires sharing modifications to covered code.. chromium's license is what bsd-like?
19:26:53 <nsITobin> frg_Away: yep still broken with vs2022 file_path.h in chromium ipc .. is that a different bustage than before.. I can't remember
19:41:33 <FrankLion> Microsoft will still be an important company, just not of much importance to OS/browser users.
19:42:00 <nsITobin> perhaps
19:42:30 <nsITobin> just a lot of the changes in edge since it hit triple digits feels familar.. like internet explorer
19:43:00 <nsITobin> and triggers in me the impression implied with the phrase "Shell Update"
19:44:13 <nsITobin> frankly i think pre-internet explorer integration Windows Explorer had a fantastic set of concepts that were barely and when done was half-hearted post-shell update
20:26:00 <nsITobin> unexpected but I am glad it went well
21:01:25 <tomman> oh gawd, found another Clownflare-wannabe "Checking your web browser" enemy that keeps failing here too
21:01:31 <tomman> look for DDoS-Guard
21:01:42 <tomman> no captchas, just a endless spinner that reloads the page... forever
21:01:53 <tomman> it seems to exploit some JS Chromeism
21:02:24 <tomman> "An invalid or illegal string was specified"
21:02:41 <tomman> this junk is OUT OF CONTROL
21:03:10 <tomman> soon we will need a SS companion just to load websites
21:04:17 <tomman> ooof, even on FF128ESR it fails... and drops down to a Turnstyle-like captcha
21:05:30 <tomman> ...and of course, Clownflare again
21:05:34 <tomman> today is not my day
21:32:08 <nsITobin> tomman: did those wine people ever respond?
21:32:23 <tomman> nah
21:32:53 <tomman> the user support channels in general are largely desolated these days
22:47:07 <tomman> oh god, Clownflare touched my balls a record number of times today
22:47:36 <tomman> the last one: tried to buy a DLC for a game from Denpasoft... and the checkout page uses a nicely tucked in Clownflare Turnsick captcha
22:47:37 <nsITobin> Cloudflare is just an arm of TSA
22:47:40 <nsITobin> prove me wrong
22:47:56 <tomman> Tried to exchange money for products and/or services, Clownflare said "GO AWAY"
22:48:05 <frg_Away> I think we got it. Can we now get to normal noise level again :)
22:48:14 <tomman> must be a personal record :/
22:58:00 * nsITobin moves one of the comically large speakers back out of the channel
23:21:00 <grey_gandalf> good evwning
23:21:06 <grey_gandalf> frg not around?
23:21:14 <grey_gandalf> anybody has a clue about llvm-config?
23:21:34 <grey_gandalf> I applied his patch. Started from scratch, same sources! (but unpacked again)
23:21:37 <grey_gandalf> but am stuck with;
23:21:49 <grey_gandalf> https://pastebin.com/zjhht8jJ
23:21:59 <grey_gandalf> (command is indeed not provided by default compiler)
23:26:02 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: standard seamonkey_away mode
23:26:04 <nsITobin> speak
23:26:07 <nsITobin> he may respond
23:26:09 <nsITobin> ;)
23:28:08 <grey_gandalf> oh.. sorry missed him in the participant list
23:28:13 <grey_gandalf> but actually, I may be mistaken
23:28:34 <nsITobin> he is here
23:28:41 <nsITobin> hey frg_Away
23:29:23 <nsITobin> maybe he passed out on the keyboard
23:29:53 <grey_gandalf> sorry, my mistake... autocompletion failed and my eyes failed too..
23:30:14 <grey_gandalf> IN the meanhwile... compilation started, I used the wrong .mozconfig file. Let's wayt about 10 minutes and see
23:31:15 <frg_Away> It is not that I monitor it every minute :)
23:32:26 <grey_gandalf> my mistake... now my ThinkCentre is heating up my room, which in January isn't bad at all
23:32:30 <frg_Away> Build does not really need llvm right now but this will change. Even if you compile with gcc or msvc it needs to be around for sysmbol generation and later some rust stylo stuff (orgkkk).
23:33:14 <frg_Away> buc has üpatched it away for now in Fedora but this will not work forever so try to make it work now
23:33:18 <grey_gandalf> I used the old .mozconfig file from 2.53.18. Used the one from 2.53,19 and compilation starts
23:33:43 <grey_gandalf> freebsd does not provide llvm-config for the system compiler, only for the port installed ones
23:33:52 <frg_Away> knocking on wood
23:34:44 <frg_Away> I assue the updated rust patch worked.
23:34:52 <grey_gandalf> actually, I did a hack: I force it to use clang15 from ports, which provires llvm-config instead of system compiler. SHould be enoug though.
23:34:58 <grey_gandalf> -export CC="clang"
23:34:59 <grey_gandalf> -export CXX="clang++"
23:35:01 <grey_gandalf> +export CC="clang15"
23:35:02 <grey_gandalf> +export CXX="clang++15"
23:35:04 <grey_gandalf> +export LLVM_CONFIG="llvm-config15"
23:35:12 <grey_gandalf> knock knock knock.. let's see the hard stuff
23:35:44 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: I applied your patch version too, still got the same error... so I applied it with "git apply" even if it is not a git repo... but to do that I had to remove and unpack sources ggain
23:37:25 <frg_Away> I used the patch from mozilla build under Windows and it worked for me with the new patch. Had to use a clean tarball of course.
23:38:00 * grey_gandalf sound of whirring fans
23:38:07 * grey_gandalf crossing fingers
23:38:47 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: if this works I get my workstation up to spec again... the current binary I use is running in compatibility from an older version of FreeBSD
23:39:31 <grey_gandalf> then... I hope we can get in touch somehow for geting it om ny MBP with 10.9... maybe the best is then a source checkout, see to reinstantiat e some of your patches and hope. I bet some people would appreciate
23:39:47 <frg_Away> My Haswell V3 Xeons are sooo quiet. Best system I ever had,
23:41:28 <frg_Away> grey_gandalf seriously I understand hsaving old systems around but anything running 10.9 is not really compatible with the modern web. I would really spend the time for something else.
23:41:30 <grey_gandalf> this is old nocona, not really loud. I love it because it still has IBM on it and is "black".. so ideal for my GNUstep development. SOmetimes they spin up a lot
23:41:45 <grey_gandalf> but I don't know how to check CPU temp under FreeBSD
23:42:48 <grey_gandalf> anyway, right now it is zipping through good old c++ code with clang15... the issue is in rust crap
23:44:16 <grey_gandalf> rust makes fan spin higher somehow... also on my NetBSD laptop, it can make it crawl/die.. I don't know what the compiler has. Seems to be "decent" only on linux
23:44:55 <frg_Away> The stupid workaround crate is not even needed. Just for arm32 and whoever runs arm32 thse days should be locked agway in an asylum. Even x86 makes more sense.
23:51:21 * nsITobin sits quietly running an hg experiment
23:52:47 <grey_gandalf> reconnected from other system, to free up resources :)
23:53:11 <grey_gandalf> frg_Away: I understand... on the other hand 10.9 is  perfectly capable system. There is a legacy port of Chromium and it performs quite usable... just it is Chrome
23:53:16 <grey_gandalf> I'd prefer Seamonkey
23:53:28 <grey_gandalf> which, well, is still not up to all web standards, but...
23:53:37 <nsITobin> who is?
23:53:41 <nsITobin> besides chrome
23:53:56 <nsITobin> Mozilla isn't
23:54:07 <nsITobin> which makes no sense
23:54:13 <grey_gandalf> current firefox isfor all my purposes
23:54:31 <grey_gandalf> and I pund it with really heavy stuff for work... worst cloud stuff you can imagine
23:54:38 <grey_gandalf> safari is quite amazing too
23:55:15 <grey_gandalf> safari is so fast in a lot of things.. and then sucks in others compared even to firefox. E.g. current github. sucks in terms of performance, not rendering
23:55:42 <nsITobin> safari is the evil google built on
23:55:52 <nsITobin> what they did to khtml
23:55:59 <grey_gandalf> github is one of the worst sites ever
23:56:00 <nsITobin> and really all open source is unforgivable
23:56:23 <grey_gandalf> webkit is there to use... and it is embeddable, compared to gecko
23:57:08 <nsITobin> gecko used to be embeddable.. remenents of it via xulrunner still exist.. geckoview embeds gecko for android and ONLY android..
23:57:18 <grey_gandalf> company bluff apart, take a 5 year old webkit and render modern pages compare it with firefox 78 or even 100... and it is amazing how well it degrades, I am impressed
23:57:37 <grey_gandalf> I know it used to be embeddable, but it is not.. mozilla decided it is not worth it
23:57:42 <grey_gandalf> mozilla is stupid
23:57:46 <grey_gandalf> do you remember Camino???
23:58:04 <nsITobin> grey_gandalf: issue is.. the codebase.. Mozilla was never designed to be an HTML platform.. it was DESIGNED to be an XML platform..
23:58:12 <nsITobin> HTML was just a compatibility thing
23:58:17 <nsITobin> XHTML was the future
23:58:51 <nsITobin> and any xml dialect under the sun
23:59:14 <nsITobin> it was an inspiring and beautiful dream