it is in and won't go away. I wish it would but it would take a lot more people to reqrite all the stuff needed then.

frg_Away: also it infected svg...

at least half a dozen malcontents or a dozen reasonable people i suspect to get any progress

for style without rust

but it is really proving a mess of a language in its environment.. at the beginning I just though "oh no, just another useless language", now I hate it for the way it is

at the end C and C++ are lingua franca, portable.... this is why webkit and blink are so successful. Ever thought about that?

only hard-core fans like me with distrust in google use Firefox

who uses firefox?

grey_gandalf: would you use firefox if it was like this.. but actually completed not just a proof of concept? binaryoutcast.com/res/www.binaryout…nt//updates//fireforks/protofox.png

more hardcore people only when manifest v3 is the only thing. Curreently use Vivaldi but then I need to rethink.

but Vivaldi is again wrapped chormium

I use firefox daily... and a little bit of seamonkey.

nsITobin: it is not so different from real firefox?

the hamburger menu is ugly, as the tabs

and the unified toolbar is an insult to developed intelligence

grey_gandalf: well i started scraping off its style.. i'd have tor estyle the tabs and urlbar

likely rework the urlbar

entirely

I opened bgus against it back then, but...

but it IS possible to get even MODERN firefox started down a path to some UX sanity

well until they switch it to html html and not xhtml with some xul

cause we will loose the toolkit styling

html rendered chrome has no implicit styling

chrome as in .. you know what i mean grey_gandalf

yeah we called chrome before chrome made theirs :)

chrome's UI is terrible... nad firefox folllowed it a lot

the rendering egning is, I must admit, decent sometimes

Google Chrome was created by pissed off mozila ex-employees i always understood

I am sometimes amazed by webkit on my mac

grey_gandalf: if you are a good coder what we NEED is restored desktop embeeding of modern mozilla.. then we can IE tab the fucker even into SeaMonkey 1.1

i need to reduce my cursing its getting excessive even for me sorry..

ahah yes...

I am a moderate coder, good but slow ... brilliant in certain things, but a sucker in big things like mozilla

I noticed in using backports ...

I am a coder, but in the GNUstep world

yes, loss of embedding was cursed by a lot of people that left gecko disgruntled for WebKit and Blink

I think MOzilla FOundation di dsooo many thigns wrong to position itself into meaningless

today my coding stamina was taken away by trying to modernize the WebP decoder of ArcticFox to StreamingLexer.....

grey_gandalf: well you need anything from me you know where I am aside from here.. Also i need to relist ArcticFox on thereisonlyxul.org since I started listing everyone again

If you ever want to help to improve the styles of it again, welcome

seamonkey is still compiling, that's good

i dunno something about taking a xul codebase whichever era is best suited.. stripping out its browser capabilities as far as being able to browse on http and making it a general application framework is compelling to me

people don't seem to have a problem using qt or gtk with similar functionality but what kills it for them is the god damned web.. not that any of that is relevant to seamonkey

even with thunderbird today people can't see mozilla any further than web browser.. not even mozilla

well now AI ad company and browser

but still

Mozilla is in a very sad state

I never liked thunderbird.... I use SeaMonkey also for its mail!

now mostly for its mail... also for the fact that seamonkey runs on my old macbook pro! but not on the oldest MBP sadly... shoudl try compilation or backports somewhen

10.11 is minimum. Needed tester for 10.9 one time and no one came forward so kicked 10.9 and 10.10

I have 10.9 :)

actually for some strange reason my 10.9 MBP is faster than my 10.11, I don't know if it is a different model or the effect of the OS. CPU is in theory quiite smilar

anything 10.9 should be able to run 10.11 if I am not mistaken.

10.11 works fine

no, it doesn't start... maybe some trick is needed.. or maybe it can be compiled with 10.9 target.. should be attempted. I will perhaps

had other stuff on my hands

I took out some 10.9 stuff.

bad... coulò be put back in

anyway... more important is FreeBSD which is my workstation and much more current

compilation faisl. In rust code. No doubt... shitty rust

grey_gandalf: what level do you suppose your codebase is at xul wise and html wise

at this point

"feature has been removed" oh heck ???

needs a patch if higher than 1.73.

rust version ?

can't put it in unless you want win 7 8 and macos 10.11 support removed.

no please win7 and 10.11 are vital :) and one of the main reasons to use SeaMonkey

I might have sacrificed 10.11 but not 7 and 8

why does this tupid rust issue cause 10.11 sacrifice?

I have rust 1.81 apparently... installed by freebsd

let me try the patch then

frg_Away: can't we ifdef it somehow to rust version it is compiled with?

read the comments and thank the rust maintainers

nope

those rat bastards

ah... iditos of rust removed compiler support.. are the nuts?

can we access crates living in the objdir.. preprocess it anyway?

did I say I hate rust?

frg_Away:

I have up to gcc 14 on MacOS 10.5 thanks to macporrts... it can do wonders

and also very recent clang on all my MB and MBPs

nsITobin I won't try. Need to provide a diffrent cargo.lock and other stuff. Not sure this is even remotely possible.

right..

that

ugh

it's literally worse than a virtualenv

is "patch" for you patch enough, Frank?

I just applied it ...

1:23.38 error: failed to load source for dependency `any_all_workaround`

might need a fix

or a clobber

if you applied it after a build failure.. clobber

prewtty sure <i tried it with 2.53.20 and Windows

is it downlaging stuff from git as I looks like?

if I clobber, it will take another hour or so, rill run it while I'll atttempt some sleep :()

but have a look at the issue before

use mach vendor rust in thr SeaMonkey source dir

mozversioncontrol.InvalidRepoPath: Unknown VCS, or not a source checkout: /usr/home/multix/code/seamonkey-2.53.20

well, yes, I just unpacked the tarball

your patch does work only if I have a git checkout?

I will take a look. So far no one complained. Checxk the obsolete patches if they are better.

frg_Away: so btw vs2022 17.6 ltsc .. the debugger crashes on windows 7 ..

I clobbered... will report

do you read the ML? or should I report on the bug if you are not here?

bugs

lol

grey_gandalf: the channel is logged

various community provided resources like the logbots are now being collected here seamonkey.thereisonlyxul.org

grey_gandalf let me know here and I will see if I need to update the patch the. Reading the log

grey_gandalf: I'd love to eventually get some slightly more modern form of mozdev built but maybe once various pieces exist

frg_Away: with a make clobber, it fails early without attempting compilation with the error I gave in pastebin. SO apparently it is trying to use soem git repositories it can't

nsITobin: ArcticFox is currently kind of a Frankenstein between FF49 and FF50 recadring dom/layout/javascript

might have missed some sources in the patch. The stupid workaroudn isn't even needed because we don't do android.

frg_Away: so why do we need it?

let me know! for today, I am KO...

darn, someone updated bugzilla and now it is hard to read with seamonkey 2.53.18 :( I hope .20 will improve that

it is even broken on uxp as well

i have too many browsers installed

nope. web components, private class fields and dynamic imports. You need another browser here now.

explains why its partly functional.. they have dynamic importants but webcomponents isn't nearly as complete as I thought it was

edge doesn't know what to do with a file so it opens firefox firefox knows its supposed to be opened by seamonkey because it also doesn't know.. then SEAMONKEY knows to open my file in an archive manager .. but this only happens SOMETIMES

sometimes i get a zip to the file manager in edge or firefox.. before it opens seamonkey

it's a mess

and the current bugzilla website is worse than the old one. Clunky and slow even in Vivaldi.

But hey its modern...

yeah i noticed that recently too in edge

of course the mozilla wiki likes to play games every release with pin the tail on the ua string to not get mobile version

frg_Away: before you pass out does --with-visual-studio-verson work with buildtools only?

nsITobin i never tested

I'll let you know

Parses the vswhere output so 50/50

vswhere sees it

using the same options configure calls it with so hopeful?

sees both i wanna be able to have both on the same VM

so i am hopeful i.ibb.co/ZYZD8qk/image.png

You still need to set the compiler to cl in the mozconfig or it will pick clang but that is trivial

frg_Away: unless my refactored vs version specific startshell batch files take care of it

egar to find out

I test clang now and then so need both working

x86 only compiles with clang

i tried to compile with clang it failed but that was like early 2024

It already worked then.

well i was having a lot of issues then as well some of them technical

soo likely was doing it wrong you know

or it was fedora 39

haven't tried on el8 or windows

Might be a then incompatibility with later clang or other stuff.

or operator error

pebkac

so there is a flaw in my batch file.. it doesn't know how to do anything but ask and pick the first one.. i actually used vswhere to get the vcdir to launch vcvars

removed -latest sets 2019 first providing you only have 2019 and 2022 installed using that for now

nighty night with a last 2.53 gitlab update

rest well

once again, got Cuckflared here

the latest offender: Wine deployed that bastard crap on their website

now I can't contribute anymore to the AppDB because I can't get past goddamned Turnsickle tonight

finally, it took me TWENTY FIVE TIMES to get past Clownflare Turnsickle tonight

clownflare hasn't bitched up the DNS protocol this week, give them a rest :>

it's an active war

there will never be rest until those clowns implode

never been a fan of CF

not even the MICROS~1 of ancient ages was THIS evil

tend to agree

this is how CF and so many other business models work: 1) enter a deregulated space. 2) abuse deregulated space. 3) lobby for standards in deregulated space. 4) own the regulated space (with standards they helped write)

tomman: did you try going to wine and bitching?

i was in there recently and didn't get banned

so that shows at least some promise?

nsITobin: Actually yes, I ranted at their IRC channel

but it's largely dead these days

did you get banned?

never expected to rant about CF at Wine of all places

well, not really

and CF is a business, not a charity... they're not some "for the greater good" they're for an exit strategy

and they got really really good at making it stupid easy to throw a website behind a scrubber before anyone else in the game

hope their "exit strategy" is "6 feet under"

Ximo: i want a preference to DISABLE the HTML5 parser and use the expat based html content sink

tomman: there how was that

good night

recently i saw some browser proposal along the lines of rendering only (or at least not a lot of javascript, for example throwing away the dom), but with a stele-like (as was the term used by classilla) backend for easy "patches". in the case of the browser proposal that i'm somehow no longer able to find it also included the ability to pre-render with cef though, which is probably not something we'd all eager to have.

+be

still, if someone remembers the same thing (i did some light searching on hn to try and find it again, but may have been from anything else just as well) would be glad to have it pointed out to me.

i also forgot my latest insulting cf situation...

0128|03:38:28 <+tomman> not even the MICROS~1 of ancient ages was THIS evil <- I somehow feel that the new Cloudflare system is *exactly* how Microsoft would do it in a way

they started with something more compatible and once they had the ability to they ditched support for most browsers and radically changed the service they provide

my latest CF situation was five minutes ago. random wiki site (wikia-backed?) started deploying cloudflare after a few requests

"butbutbut CF provides a useful service"

no, they don't

know who also provide useful services? The Sicilian Mafia

unless supporting only four or five browsers is useful to you

entities I never heard back from regarding CF usage include OSM and the W3C.

W3C said they were going to "look into it" or similar, no idea if anything ever came out of that, and I don't think I've got any reply after that

W3C aka Google's web standards rubberstamping department

applying 1405407-1-255.patch

warning: Watchman unavailable: watchman exited with code 1

applying 1405407-2-255.patch

patching file suite/confvars.sh

Hunk #1 FAILED at 6

Hunk #2 FAILED at 37

2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file suite/confvars.sh.rej

patch failed, unable to continue (try -v)

warning: Watchman unavailable: watchman exited with code 1

patch failed, rejects left in working directory

errors during apply, please fix and qrefresh 1405407-2-255.patch

also how can I kill that watchman warning

it only happens on some hg repos like comm but not mozilla

this is the patch that changes extensions from using the platform extensions dir leftover from xpfe to adding your own build logic.. how did this get out of wack.. its been there for a long while.. I can fix it locally but it is strange

idgi

WIP Patch Queue is busted @ 1405407-2-255.patch

cleared it downloaded it all again

unless the hg sources have been updated as well

and my bundle is out of date

doesn't look like it..

nsITobin will check

nsITobin I think your bundle is out of date ibb.co/510K1sV

Can you check if you have Bug 1583369 in. comm got updated with mozilla the last time.

sorry frg_Away i went to do dishes

np

I'll clone from heptapod and then update my bundles later on

maybe later on build a function into the panel of the cci to regenerate the bundles on demand.. that would be halpful.. maybe even helpful

now head over to frg-central and get the patches again.. and this is gonna work this time.. i am sure of it.. HA!

it's patchin

yeah had to be out of date bundles

still patching

and ipdl-start

sorry frg_Away guess it was the out of date bundles

good news frg_Away i think my older style vs-enabled start_shell seems to have told configure what it wanted ,.. but only a build will tell.. Given the directive in configure does not include -latest when querying vswhere it could be hapenstance and not my batch file as well.. i am sure more research will be needed

kicked off

not that multiple vs versions installed old style as in their actual seperate versions can get messy it is by no means a recommended setup.. should always be done with exactly the correct deps on a clean machine.. but this is a dev-work vm so treated like bare metal

except for operator error it is getting to be a smoother process

frg_Away: get this.. windows 7 builds seamonkey faster than UXP

by 3 minutes

so it was windows 10 adding additional io

c:/PROGRA~2/MICROS~4/2019/BUILDT~1/VC/Tools/MSVC/1429~1.301/bin/HostX64/x64/cl.exe

yep

neat but its all likely fragile

I just did a build under 2012 R2 because of the later rust failure with the patch and was about 22 minutes. About 6 minutes faster than under 2019. 8.1 strill seems to be the fastest. Has the kernel optimizations carried over to 10 without the later bloat it seems.

i been sticking with rust 1.76

well it worked and i am closer to a better setup

> Unfortunately, the W3C has not yet seen to add a WebPcSpeaker API to JavaScript. This is a major oversight, and I recommend all Nicole Express readers who are in charge of standardization committees get that rectified as soon as possible. So we have to use the Web Audio API. Like pretty much anything designed for audio in the modern era, the Web Audio API is not based around square waves,...

...it’s based around samples.

LOLOLOLOLOL :D

...well, that would be certainly a better API than attestation this or USB that :D

computers are not being shipped with speakers

i have speaker hooked up a pc speaker.. i get no beep

all i ask for when i turn on a computer is a beep

no beep

and i won't wait for my efi to use a javascript api to make it beep

If it doesn't got electrolytes I don't want it!

frg_Away: btw if you wanna update the sdk to 22621 it works fine for windows 7 and up

nsITobin I already did for 2.53.20 :)

the build system picked up the later version that i installed with 2022

ah ok good

context menus should be fixed on windows 11 but i ain't testing it without some actual sandboxed security.. windows 11 is a virus

by using the later sdk

properly popup menus context menubar eitehr or.. with a windows 10 sdk it can be degraded

confused me for a long time cause I didn't understand the nature of the issue

my god

hello FrankLion

the most conserning words anyone should hear is Windows.. with AI

why is no one concerned on this point in and of its self.

upsilon.black-net.org:8080/seamonkey/20250128#c255907 Chrome was created by a direct collaboration of Google employees and active Mozilla employees

i should list that logbot too on the new CCI

half the channel will by logbots by 2030!

be*

FrankLion: facinating I thought i remembered former mozilla employees but that was brave

now that you mention it..

god there is too much stuff in my head

need a better file system for my brain

so did you come all this way just for that?

cause kinda impressed

FrankLion: do you happen to remember any other buzz from the time?

There was a few Google swine working side by side with Mozilla coders back in the day. P.Kasting was one who springs to mind.

likely responsible for the webidl push and chromium ipc

same era

FrankLion: hope the moon people ain't giving you any current trouble

I recall that Firefox was a proper OS project up until that Google collab and then something changed. Firefox 4 came in and loads of Mozilla guys left because of the new direction.

the purges

and saving of skins but not theming apperently

Nope, the moon people give me no problems

well good, they need to stay on their worthless lump of rock and out of people's way until they redeem them selves

I have so sentenced them.

if that matters lol

FrankLion: do you believe if the chrome business gets split off from google that edge will take over as primary chromium browser

putting microsoft back where they once were with a complicit Mozilla who is about ads and data collection for AI than even making a good browser ui?

I think I see microsoft becoming increasingly irrelevant in the future as desktop flatlines. I reckon also that Mozilla will just get worse and worse as time goes on.

i think microsoft is starting to consider the web engine to be the OS engine again

I do know this.. the whatwg will have to be overthrown

they won't change

the bright spot is.. the whatwg proved a standards body can just be rendered effectively irrelevant

These are uncertain times, back in the day it was easier to predict what would happen.

so..

i find it funny mozillazine is one of the places I am not banned from

FrankLion: let me hit you with this: w3c and whatwg do all their stuff on github.. owned by microsoft where google makes the standards and mozilla signs off on em and that is all it takes.

microsoft is already the gatekeeper to web standards

I am now banned from github

sooo

I also know why Mozilla is not the basis of all.. the MPL requires sharing modifications to covered code.. chromium's license is what bsd-like?

frg_Away: yep still broken with vs2022 file_path.h in chromium ipc .. is that a different bustage than before.. I can't remember

Microsoft will still be an important company, just not of much importance to OS/browser users.

perhaps

just a lot of the changes in edge since it hit triple digits feels familar.. like internet explorer

and triggers in me the impression implied with the phrase "Shell Update"

frankly i think pre-internet explorer integration Windows Explorer had a fantastic set of concepts that were barely and when done was half-hearted post-shell update

unexpected but I am glad it went well

oh gawd, found another Clownflare-wannabe "Checking your web browser" enemy that keeps failing here too

look for DDoS-Guard

no captchas, just a endless spinner that reloads the page... forever

it seems to exploit some JS Chromeism

"An invalid or illegal string was specified"

this junk is OUT OF CONTROL

soon we will need a SS companion just to load websites

ooof, even on FF128ESR it fails... and drops down to a Turnstyle-like captcha

...and of course, Clownflare again

today is not my day

tomman: did those wine people ever respond?

nah

the user support channels in general are largely desolated these days

oh god, Clownflare touched my balls a record number of times today

the last one: tried to buy a DLC for a game from Denpasoft... and the checkout page uses a nicely tucked in Clownflare Turnsick captcha

Cloudflare is just an arm of TSA

prove me wrong

Tried to exchange money for products and/or services, Clownflare said "GO AWAY"

I think we got it. Can we now get to normal noise level again :)

must be a personal record :/

good evwning

frg not around?

anybody has a clue about llvm-config?

I applied his patch. Started from scratch, same sources! (but unpacked again)

but am stuck with;

(command is indeed not provided by default compiler)

grey_gandalf: standard seamonkey_away mode

speak

he may respond

;)

oh.. sorry missed him in the participant list

but actually, I may be mistaken

he is here

hey frg_Away

maybe he passed out on the keyboard

sorry, my mistake... autocompletion failed and my eyes failed too..

IN the meanhwile... compilation started, I used the wrong .mozconfig file. Let's wayt about 10 minutes and see

It is not that I monitor it every minute :)

my mistake... now my ThinkCentre is heating up my room, which in January isn't bad at all

Build does not really need llvm right now but this will change. Even if you compile with gcc or msvc it needs to be around for sysmbol generation and later some rust stylo stuff (orgkkk).

buc has üpatched it away for now in Fedora but this will not work forever so try to make it work now

I used the old .mozconfig file from 2.53.18. Used the one from 2.53,19 and compilation starts

freebsd does not provide llvm-config for the system compiler, only for the port installed ones

knocking on wood

I assue the updated rust patch worked.

actually, I did a hack: I force it to use clang15 from ports, which provires llvm-config instead of system compiler. SHould be enoug though.

-export CC="clang"

-export CXX="clang++"

+export CC="clang15"

+export CXX="clang++15"

+export LLVM_CONFIG="llvm-config15"

knock knock knock.. let's see the hard stuff

frg_Away: I applied your patch version too, still got the same error... so I applied it with "git apply" even if it is not a git repo... but to do that I had to remove and unpack sources ggain

I used the patch from mozilla build under Windows and it worked for me with the new patch. Had to use a clean tarball of course.

frg_Away: if this works I get my workstation up to spec again... the current binary I use is running in compatibility from an older version of FreeBSD

then... I hope we can get in touch somehow for geting it om ny MBP with 10.9... maybe the best is then a source checkout, see to reinstantiat e some of your patches and hope. I bet some people would appreciate

My Haswell V3 Xeons are sooo quiet. Best system I ever had,

grey_gandalf seriously I understand hsaving old systems around but anything running 10.9 is not really compatible with the modern web. I would really spend the time for something else.

this is old nocona, not really loud. I love it because it still has IBM on it and is "black".. so ideal for my GNUstep development. SOmetimes they spin up a lot

but I don't know how to check CPU temp under FreeBSD

anyway, right now it is zipping through good old c++ code with clang15... the issue is in rust crap

rust makes fan spin higher somehow... also on my NetBSD laptop, it can make it crawl/die.. I don't know what the compiler has. Seems to be "decent" only on linux

The stupid workaround crate is not even needed. Just for arm32 and whoever runs arm32 thse days should be locked agway in an asylum. Even x86 makes more sense.

reconnected from other system, to free up resources :)

frg_Away: I understand... on the other hand 10.9 is perfectly capable system. There is a legacy port of Chromium and it performs quite usable... just it is Chrome

I'd prefer Seamonkey

which, well, is still not up to all web standards, but...

who is?

besides chrome

Mozilla isn't

which makes no sense

current firefox isfor all my purposes

and I pund it with really heavy stuff for work... worst cloud stuff you can imagine

safari is quite amazing too

safari is so fast in a lot of things.. and then sucks in others compared even to firefox. E.g. current github. sucks in terms of performance, not rendering

safari is the evil google built on

what they did to khtml

github is one of the worst sites ever

and really all open source is unforgivable

webkit is there to use... and it is embeddable, compared to gecko

gecko used to be embeddable.. remenents of it via xulrunner still exist.. geckoview embeds gecko for android and ONLY android..

company bluff apart, take a 5 year old webkit and render modern pages compare it with firefox 78 or even 100... and it is amazing how well it degrades, I am impressed

I know it used to be embeddable, but it is not.. mozilla decided it is not worth it

mozilla is stupid

do you remember Camino???

grey_gandalf: issue is.. the codebase.. Mozilla was never designed to be an HTML platform.. it was DESIGNED to be an XML platform..

HTML was just a compatibility thing

XHTML was the future

and any xml dialect under the sun

it was an inspiring and beautiful dream