yay, Dell updated its support website, and now the driver download pages BREAK

"TypeError: Object.groupBy is not a function"

also, got a couple of those logged: "TypeError: asm.js type error: cannot create array view without an asm.js heap parameter"

wow, it's pretty bleeding edge: Chrome 117, FF119

DELL, WHYYYYY

Driver download page should definitely be browser-agnostic. Drivers are such an important part of being able to even use the computer

It's easy to imagine a situation where you cannot even use the newest Firefox or Chrome at all before installing some driver

I have noticed that many professional web developers nowadays genuinely don't seem to know that it is possible to write websites without those bleeding-edge javascript libraries

It just shows how incompetent some programmers there are

And when I try to educate them in a constructive way, they just become angry at me...

seems that even Jitsi does not work with Seamonkey anymore, and also not with Firefox

this shit is destroying free software...

Jitsi was a viable alternative for spywares like Zoom, Teams and such, and now it only works with Chrome which has became a closed-source program...

Sompi: In my specific case, the Dell one particularly hurts me as the owner of FOUR Dell boxes, including a Inspiron 15 3525 just bought 4 months ago or so (and still under support 'till 2025)

HP is also guilty of the same crap, both their consumer crap division HP Ink., and HPE

at least HPE lets you browse the driver download pages, but large parts of the support site rely on Chromeisms

but HP Ink. is basically "no Chrome? No support for you!"

not that I care as HP is specifically blacklisted at these premises under all of its names and disguises

now even self-hostable "free software" programs/cms's are infected with chromeisms

so badly that they don't even work with firefox

what's the point of using them anymore? chromium cannot be compiled without google's proprietary fork of rustc

and the very reason that Jitsi exists is to be a free alternative for programs like Zoom and Teams

I used Jitsi with Seamonkey not long ago

Maybe some instances still use an old enough version that it works

the fact people now uses frickin' COMPILERS just to "build" a website makes Baby Jesus cry blood tears

and people dare complaining that Java is bloat and that PHP is "fractal of a bad design"...

Of course Jitsi also used to work on pretty much anything because it has such a wide support for different browsers. Now it only works on platforms that Google Chrome works on

it had*

Or maybe the correct way to put it would be that Jitsi was browser-agnostic. Now it only supports a limited set of browsers.

AKA Chrome, MS Chrome, Crypto Chrome, Chinese Chrome, and "well, for as long as Apple sells cellphones I guess we have to support Safari even if it is ooooold and rusty"

funny that Apple begrudgingly gets a pass, and only because the current crop of webdevs REALLY love their iPhones otherwise

and unless you live on the EU (and NEVER leave the Schengen area), you cannot install full fat Chrome on a iDevice

we are definitely living interesting times if google becomes split up

they have been abusing their marketshare for too long

I don't understand how there still hasn't been an antitrust lawsuit for Microsoft, UEFI and "Secure Boot"

Sompi: re: driver downloads and other downloads: in other words, things didn't improve much since the late 90s/early 2000s at least for the impact of bad practices. maybe back then it was requiring IE or activex or a standalone downloader, we're just seeing a bunch of that being moved into the browser, sometimes with no easy opt-out or a clear line to complain

Sompi: Did you know that, if not still the case (I think now OS ISOs are directly available from MICROS~1?), MSDNAA used to require windows in order to download windows? I.e. I'd say it didn't satisfy any intention to provide windows to those who didn't have a license already, even if technically there was the ability to request a burned copy.

installing drivers or reading manuals are clearly situations where you'd try to allow every browser, because sometimes it'll be, say, lynx, or there's a serious constraint in the only available connection, or you'll need to download indirectly (it's amazing how often this one is difficult or outright impossible...)

that said, it seems the no. 1 support and drivers website is now poised to be archive.org, because some manufacturers insist it's not relevant to keep old information and files hewlett packard I'm looking at you but yes that's expected from a company that chooses *broadcom* for wireless.

Jitsi, that still confuses me a bit, I think I had clarified it before but I forget, wasn't Jitsi also the name for the video-conferencing extensions of XMPP?

any will to take action will surely be shadowed by lobbying to keep it as close to the status quo or as ineffective as possible

then perhaps escalated to the SCOTUS which will fundamentally misunderstand how a von Neumann architecture works :-P

Nowadays many driver download pages also have a dropdown "search" that makes it hard or impossible to find the correct product, or some weird JavaScripts that insists to "detect" what hardware you have, even when it is impossible to download the driver without using an another computer

To think that somewhere there, in that company that manufactured the device, is a committee of people who think that things like that are a good idea...

HP consumer segment (and perhaps not only that) is a nightmare, it makes you go through all that to then possibly realizing "oh, it's not available anymore"

at this rate, they have to be forced by law/regulation to keep files for as long as the corporation exists, and release these otherwise...

Hardware manufacturers started "forgetting" their old drivers and other information about their old devices ~ten years ago

Before that they were prout of having been in the business for so long that they had devices from 80's (for example) and they included the information for that all on their website

And drivers

s/prout/proud/

Nowadays being an experienced company is somehow seen as a burden

I think Nokia started it with their Microsoft/Windows phone thing and then every other tech company followed

They just suddenly stopped supporting their old models and removed all downloadable material related to them, and started acting like those old models didn't even exist

type something in hit enter and it replaces your phrase with the first autocomplete result even if it doesn;t make sense instead of searching? Yes.

Some years ago HP/Compaq still had an FTP server that had drivers for their manufactured hardware, but the file names were something like f7818wsq.zip and you'd need a proprietary downloader (Windows only) to know what to download

seamonkey needs fireftp fixed and integrated

Now manufacturers have been shutting down even their FTP servers

them filenames

thats been going on for five years now in haste

remember what was it last year.. the fedora transfer protocol joke

when they dropped their ftp and then went customelements so seamonkey and other "legacy" browsers couldn't access and there was no link to the http file store anywhere

Sompi: my guess is it was more or less around the time google started promoting Chrome-on-Android-friendly sites and a few corporations just redid their sites from scratch

Sompi: the nokia thing... urgh. And I think figuring out how to get stuff for new feature phones (which aren't nokia even, or are they now nokia?) wasn't that easy, either that or it required contacting the company

the whole nokia thing was IMHO unfortunate

as in, I think they ruined something that could be good, it's not far-fetched to say Elop ruined it, in fact I think Elop's tenure is sometime seen as, uh... not good

and we shouldn't forget that Nokia was actively destroying itself when they did that

So why are all other tech companies following in their footsteps

Nokia's move is mostly like "we have a good thing here that could compete against Android and the like, we could make technologically better phones with better UI. So, let's ruin this enough that we have to leave our Keilaniemi building to Microsoft"

yeah, "could" indeed, it's not the first time I hear about Nokia having some competition inside that could be seen as destruction

but their move re: mobile phones was perhaps absolutely the worst thing they could do

for what, give Microsoft a purported edge in the smartphone industry?

I had those old Symbian phones and used to be able to download drivers and everything for them from Nokia website, easily

Suddenly I couldn't because Nokia started acting that they never even manufactured that thing

sigh, I remember the day of Nokia's sale to Microsoft or what it was. Still, Nokia hopefully has/had a lot more than that going on? There was at least Nokia Research too.

Those old experienced tech companies suddenly started to act like startups, forgetting their long history

weird filenames for drivers looks at lenovo

removing legacy drivers looks at intel.com

maybe those companies are running out of disk space to store old drivers due to the amount of junk info they're spying on users data

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ha, even Driverguide is not THAT evil, despite being an advertising mess :D

franstam: the weird filenames at Lenovo is mostly an inheritance from IBM

really? what did ibm do

but then Dell used to do the same (Rxxxxx.EXE), and even Compaq (of which HP inherited the SoftPaq naming nonsense, SPxxxx.exe)

I guess it's a relic from the 8:3 file naming days

has a lookup table to translate xxxx to meaningful data?

IBM fitted nearly every driver download within a 8:3 safe filename

nice

franstam: those are release numbers, often associated to a specific article

think on MS KBs

but there is no official table, of course

some releases exist and you can download them, but you have to bruteforce the number since they're not linked anymore from any product support page

(I had to rely on this trick to get some long lost localized Win9x updates out of some Dell driver release packages)

omg

if anything, Lenovo has been switching back and forth between both naming schemes, Dell these days have done (mostly) away with the Rxxxx naming scheme, and so did HP

ok

but then HP loves disowning ancient products, while Lenovo still keeps a neat site for nearly every IBM Thinkpad ever made

yes

and Dell doesn't really care as long as you remember your Service Tag

same thing with intel.com

all windows 7 drivers have been removed

methinks intel is in bed with m$ to force people to upgrade

Intel used to be nice, but they've now pretty much disowned anything not made in the last 5 years

and that also includes non-Windows resources, like firmware updates for the motherboards they no longer make

fortunately vogonsdrivers.com exist, and even Driverguide (with a decent adblocker) saves the day at times

but still, yes, it stings

yea its more trusting to go the direct manufacturer site for such things

If you have the chance, of course

for Big Brand PCs it's usually a option, but for clones/custom builds it gets... tricky

especially for older machines

good luck downloading C-Media audio drivers from C-Media itself - they no longer make PC sound chips so they deleted those downloads years ago

and those chips used to be popular 15-20 years ago :/

idiots. i used a c-media chip in my auzentech sound card

special mention goes to Creative

where they DO offer drivers for most SoundBlasters ever made

...drivers that many times won't work :D

yes

have a SB Live!? Welcome to hell!

So Many Cards. So Many Revisions. So Many Driver Sets... and if you tossed away (or never got) the CDROM that came with your card, then you're in for an adventure of Device Manager error codes, BSoDs, unbootable operating systems, and piss poor audio quality

it's a shame, as the Live! were decent cards for its era and you can still find them out there for cheap

C-Media was the last challenger on the standalone sound chip arena, on a market that was pretty much destroyed by cheap crab chips with meh audio quality

(even modern Sound Blasters these days are nothing but cheap HD Audio codecs with decent analogs and custom drivers - most of the magic is done on software these days)

oh man so nothing is good these days?!

I haven't been able to download anything from Driverguide since they removed the possibility to download the driver directly and instead only offer a Windows .EXE that then is supposed to download the thing

I didn't even know that Driverguide still works

if only they made computers like they make firearms. ur 1960s m16 that fires 5.56 ammo still works today as long as they keep making the ammo

Sompi: Driverguide works here, but of course there is always a catch

for example: driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=298706

(make sure to use an adblocker!)

see those green DOWNLOAD buttons? They're all malware :)

instead, scroll down

look for the driver details, in the section "File Name"

click THAT one (yes, it's Javascript)

then you get sent to another page, scroll down, endure the Recaptcha hell, leave the "Download driver file only - free" option marked, and hit Continue

then you get sent to ANOTHER page, but that one will redirect to the actual driver package with the exact same filename as on the listing, not some malware EXE

(again, do not click on any of the colored DOWNLOAD buttons there)

tomman: Interesting. Why it works like that if they still also offer the actual driver for download?

because that's how slimy websites work

I just deleted all my freenode autostarts from CZ, but CZ ignores all attempts to remove freenode :(

a-865 Have you removed freenode from the networlks editor? Worked for me some time ago. Make sure you are running one of the later cZ versions.

It's whatever version comes in 2.53.19 from mozilla.org

where is a networks editor?

about sez 0.19

also I've never figured out how to make auto-ident work since mozilla rooms abandoned freenode

auto-performs are ignored

irc->networks in the menu

franstam: tomman: I think there's another corporation known for using numeric IDs on downloadable files, its name is eluding me at the moment, MICRO-something...

ah yes I see MS KBs were mentioned a bit afterwards :-P

1125|14:33:23 <+tomman> some releases exist and you can download them, but you have to bruteforce the number[...] <-- what about KB312108, is that available somehow? (truly curious here, that's the NDIS fix)

tomman: another one I'd like to be able to get directly from MS is WSU for NT 6.1, I have it somewhere, but last I tried to get from MS, even knowing the long ID for the download, I couldn't get it downloaded. Not sure if that one is even on the wayback machine.

if HP loves disowing products, I have a suggestion for them, regarding some products I've seen: maybe try to "disown" them before release...

a-865: some ircds including libera will take the IRC password as NickServ password; some ircds also take "account:password" as a password, useful to log in to a different (than the nick) NickServ account; with libera itself you can use SASL, although I don't recall if you have to set something for Cz to ask for a password

(a reason to go with SASL is if you want to make sure you're authenticated before joining channels, etc, at least IIRC with SASL that was guaranteed to happen before, no need for waits)

is there anything in the *client* or libera.chat views showing a failure?