16:05:34 <Sompi> What was the EU directive that mandates that public sector web portals must be browser-agnostic?
16:09:30 <nsITobin> i didn't know they did one
16:10:14 <nsITobin> tho what does browser-agnostic mean today when there is just chrome modern-gecko and webkit
16:33:50 <Sompi> Maybe it was this "web accessibility directive"? https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2016/2102/oj
16:36:25 <Sompi> "(37)
16:36:26 <Sompi> The four principles of accessibility are: perceivability, meaning that information and user interface components must be presentable to users in ways they can perceive; operability, meaning that user interface components and navigation must be operable; understandability, meaning that information and the operation of the user interface must be understandable; and robustness, meaning that content must be
16:36:32 <Sompi> robust enough to be interpreted reliably by a wide variety of user agents, including assistive technologies."
16:36:35 <Sompi>  
16:36:38 <Sompi> "wide variety of user agents"
16:36:48 <Sompi> That probably doesn't mean only Chrome and the newest Firefox
16:37:22 <nsITobin> every chrome varient is a "different user agent" in the whatwg system
16:37:38 <nsITobin> shame gecko isn't treated the same
16:45:52 <tomman> "browser-agnostic" basically means "whatever ships Chrome this week since Firefox will implement it" because "we can't get in the way of innovation2
16:51:58 <Sompi> Visually impaired people often cannot use Firefox or Chrome at all. In addition to that, Firefox and Chrome have way too much components that are shared by both browsers, and when a zero-day vulnerability is found from those, it leads into a situation where you cannot browse the government sites safely
16:52:17 <Sompi> The current way of doing things has too many problems
16:57:01 <Sompi> Traficom's website is already so bad that it is almost impossible to find the current rules about many things, such as road vehicles. Even GoogleBot hasn't indexed the newest PDF files, because they are behind too many JavaScript dropdown things
16:57:37 <Sompi> And Traficom is the bureau whose job is to write instructions to other governmental agencies on how to implement the web accessibility directive
16:57:48 <Sompi> But it seems that they aren't even planning to obey it themselves
16:58:23 <Sompi> So in many situations it is impossible for a citizen to know the law. It cannot be right.
16:59:14 <Sompi> Even police don't know the law, and seems that the courts don't know it either
17:01:46 <njsg> Sompi: if there is such a directive, I'll be willing to spend some time at some point writing here and there to see how much of it is to see application in practice. I've had more than enough of "only supports browser X, or Y or Z" in my life...
17:02:27 <Sompi> There is. The articla 37 of the "web accessibility directive".
17:02:44 <njsg> Sompi: ... wasn't the law available as HTML at some site? or that ceased existing?
17:02:51 <Sompi> It clearly states that government sites should work on a wide variety of user agents, which cannot mean anything else that they must be browser-agnostic.
17:03:36 <njsg> I remember seeing legal documents in HTML (not PDF) in at least Finnish and English (and I'm guessing Swedish too of course, it wasn't like that sign at a hospital)
17:04:03 <Sompi> njsg: It is, but Traficom can introduce additional rules regarding road vehicles, and those rules are nowhere to be seen if you don't use the newest Firefox or Chrome. Even Googlebot cannot find them.
17:04:21 <Sompi> Even the local police couldn't find them.
17:04:45 <Sompi> Finlex seems to work without JavaScript, at least for now
17:05:03 <njsg> finlex, that was it. and yes, I can now understand what you mean
17:05:37 <Sompi> Finlex works with links
17:06:59 <Sompi> Also it mostly seems to work with Lynx, but it has some weird charset problems with äåö
17:06:59 * njsg funnily somewhat recalls finding different text at poliisi.fi in Finnish and English - maybe he missed a paragraph somewhere, but it could have used an additional note...
17:07:54 <njsg> mut ne eiv{t en{{ oo ongelma! :-P
17:08:24 <njsg> I have to see how it fares currently, I must have a couple finlex URLs stashed somewhere to check
17:14:12 <nsITobin> wish whomever keeps dos-crashing my gogs instance would stop
17:14:45 <njsg> I read that as DOS-crashing, took me a moment to re-parse...
17:18:56 <nsITobin> ;)
23:04:49 <Sompi> njsg: seems that they just released a beta version of new finlex just one hour ago, and that new version doesn't work without javascript anymore
23:04:56 <Sompi> even basic functionalities require chromeisms now
23:11:56 <Sompi> They literally released this just now: https://beta.finlex.fi/en
23:12:13 <Sompi> Nothing there works