00:40:23 <nsITobin> just installed seamonkey
00:40:27 <nsITobin> on el8
00:40:28 <nsITobin> http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/seamonkey2.53.19%/
00:40:33 <nsITobin> was a startup url
00:40:35 <nsITobin> oops
00:44:29 <nsITobin> https://i.ibb.co/SmXm69Y/image.png
00:44:53 <nsITobin> yeah that will deff work
14:55:41 <nsITobin> and vmware installed.. no hassle just works
14:55:55 <nsITobin> it's amazing what can be achieved with the correct technology
15:00:31 <nsITobin> everything is better because it is EL8 and /at most/ Windows 10 LTSC 2019 across everything now.. I just don't think I am gonna use post-pandemic operating systems anymore.. Over the past few years it simply hasn't gone well.
15:04:03 <tomman> VMWare is dying, yo~
15:04:11 <tomman> friends don't let friends get Broadcom'd
15:05:24 <nsITobin> tomman: it is dying for legacy VM needs like anything pre-vista and soon pre-10 i am sure.. but for my purposes it shall serve.
15:06:10 <nsITobin> its just a Windows runner and then only a windows runner to provide me decent access to my 2005 era XP programs and building the seamonkey without rebooting
15:06:14 <tomman> I used to be a VirtualBox fanboy, then Orrible® ruined the fun (I can't even access its website anymore, much less legally use most of it because Das Sanctions™)
15:06:19 <nsITobin> seamonkey i could build with kvm
15:06:48 <nsITobin> but I still NEED a fully windows environment for.. Paint Shop Pro
15:06:51 <tomman> and never been a fan of Hy-Perv, er, Hyper-V
15:07:01 <nsITobin> games run on proton.. notepad++ and winamp run on wine
15:07:14 <tomman> To be fair, I haven't tested PSP on Wine lately
15:07:25 <nsITobin> cause it continues to whip the llama's ass despite the new rights owners
15:07:33 <nsITobin> tomman: it can't be installed
15:07:35 <tomman> I still use PSP 7 on my old vintage boxes, runs like a champ on everything from 98SE upwards
15:07:38 <nsITobin> msi installer issues
15:07:43 <nsITobin> i need exactly PSP 11
15:07:53 <tomman> oof, anything post-Corel doesn't exist for me
15:08:09 <nsITobin> only PSP11
15:08:09 <tomman> 7 was the final Jasc-era version... or was it 8? But 8 was meeeeh
15:08:12 <nsITobin> is sufficient
15:08:16 <nsITobin> ONLY that version
15:08:22 <nsITobin> not 10 not 12 not 2021
15:08:37 <nsITobin> its the ONLY corel version on par with jasc psp9
15:08:53 <nsITobin> i COULD use that but my font rendering and some extra features would be sacrafised
15:09:06 <nsITobin> and none of my stuff would be readable
15:09:20 <nsITobin> i am locked into PSP11 or newer and that means JUST 11
15:10:15 <nsITobin> tomman: I would need to do a staged install on windows capturing EXACT regkeys and files then overlay it to wine for even a CHANCE to get it running
15:10:30 <nsITobin> and frankly I have no facility for the reg part
15:10:41 <tomman> Let me guess: you have tried even on recent wine-devel 9.x versions and met with failure?
15:10:51 <tomman> MSI installers are indeed a pain, sometimes even under Windows itself
15:11:04 <nsITobin> the corel msi installer has embedded IE control i think THIS is why it will never work
15:11:17 <tomman> MSI was a nice electoral promise, but I've seen it break BADLY on Windows itself, and on Wine it's simply a world of hurt
15:11:38 <tomman> nah, MSI doesn't use embedded ActiveX controls
15:11:42 <nsITobin> MSI is just RPM for windows
15:11:59 <nsITobin> tomman: it literally uses IE to display a webform for corel signin
15:12:06 <nsITobin> its a custom msi installer
15:12:17 <nsITobin> it even clicks
15:12:23 <nsITobin> with the IE navi click
15:12:26 <nsITobin> on windows
15:12:31 <nsITobin> if the sound is set
15:12:43 <tomman> oof, I forgot those crazy mess were possible, but very few even bothered because it's  horrible to author installers like that
15:12:50 <tomman> but then this is Corel we're talking about, so...
15:12:56 <nsITobin> Yes.
15:12:58 <nsITobin> lol
15:13:49 <nsITobin> PSP is really the only thing requring a graphically accelerated UI for sheer usability sake
15:16:28 <nsITobin> well i'd say get the versions you want https://softwareupdate.vmware.com/cds/vmw-desktop/
15:16:50 <nsITobin> cause i doubt that is gonna remain free and clear forever despite them making workstation free for everyone for personal use
15:20:02 <nsITobin> tomman: graphic design wise I'd be fine with an XP64 VM
15:20:50 <nsITobin> but that is heading into needing virtualbox to get any kind of decent performance from that era of OS.. and i can't have more than one VM solution installed else it kills the bus
15:21:24 <nsITobin> or rather the network stack the buses need
15:21:57 <nsITobin> On windows least windows today loss of the network stack momentarily or at all isn't fatal in linux.. it is
15:56:58 <nsITobin> frg_Away: running the patch queue now
16:17:13 <nsITobin> frg_Away: let me know if you are interested in updated hg and tortoiseHg Workbench.. I just built fedora 34's version.. gonna later push it to whatever last qt5 version is
16:17:26 <nsITobin> for el8
16:17:36 <nsITobin> hell I should create a repo
16:18:35 <frg_Away> nsITobin hi. I picked  the stock one. i think 6.63 currently
16:18:59 <nsITobin> there isn't one for el8 in epel or rocky sources
16:19:30 <nsITobin> unless you are using a snap thing
16:20:29 <frg_Away> Pretty sure I use an rpm. Let me check
16:20:43 <nsITobin> if there was one it isn't in epel anymore
16:20:45 <nsITobin> its deps are
16:21:28 <nsITobin> flatpak?
16:23:12 <nsITobin> the QT5 pyqt ui looks and seems to work better than the qt6 one.. I don't think there was a lot of testing
16:26:57 <frg_Away> hi buc
16:27:08 <buc> Hi frg
16:27:33 <njsg> tomman: if sanctions cause problems with Oracle downloads, how are things there for linux distros, is that at least a way to get such packages?
16:28:05 <nsITobin> frg_Away: configure is happy and mach create-mach-environment was smooth and my exporting state path and my reduced artifacts are all working
16:28:33 <njsg> post-Corel? yeah, the only brand I had associated with paint shop pro in my memory was jasc :-D
16:28:43 <njsg> who owns it now?
16:28:47 <nsITobin> corel
16:28:58 <frg_Away> nsITobin I use the centos8 mercurial repo. So far it works
16:29:07 <nsITobin> there is one?
16:29:55 <frg_Away> www.mercurial-scm.org/releases
16:30:10 <nsITobin> frg_Away: yeah kernel 4.whatever does NOT handle IO priority as well as newer kernels..
16:30:20 <frg_Away> https://www.mercurial-scm.org/release/
16:30:22 <nsITobin> i am gonna have to build a newer one
16:30:44 <nsITobin> ah i see
16:30:49 <nsITobin> neat
16:31:35 <nsITobin> all i saw on the website there was just go get it from a flatpak or snap or whatever or from source if not fedora debian
16:32:01 <buc> nsITobin: for el8: https://elrepo.org/linux/kernel/el8/x86_64/RPMS/
16:32:12 <nsITobin> yeah tried one of those
16:32:17 <nsITobin> video didn't work
16:32:26 <nsITobin> likely did it wrong
16:32:34 <nsITobin> I'll just str8 compile a fat kernel
16:32:45 <nsITobin> no initramfs needed
16:32:48 <njsg> ah yes, as reported in the newsgroups, MICROS~1's deadline for forcing OAuth2 is not really a deadline, but probably the start of a transition. Or something.
16:32:54 <nsITobin> just leave kernel modules for vmware use
16:33:27 <njsg> I can still access @hotmail.com with regular auth, after the first failure, which, from another post there, seems to be actually intended
16:33:37 <nsITobin> njsg: and this is why Interlink Mail & News was discontinued that and attacks from MCP personnel
16:45:56 <frg_Away> I still fail to see what is so secure about oauth2. Just looks like another vendor lockin to me. Not 2 SFA
16:53:53 <nsITobin> vendor lockin AND ties an unrelated internet protocol to the initiatives of the openweb as dicted by whatwg
17:04:16 <njsg> I'm not sure it adds that much to the concept of "app passwords"
17:05:00 <njsg> that one already has different passwords for each application (although this then might depend on the user not reusing for more than one); these could be made time-limited to achieve a similar effect as OAuth2, if the concern really is security
17:06:32 <njsg> kind of looks like designed in the same vein as web-based 3DSecure validation, where you're asked to interact, to confirm the transaction, via the site you want to do the transaction on
17:07:17 <njsg> OAuth2 opens a browser window triggered by the client. I'd personally consider perhaps having the user go separately to the account control panel generate the password
17:07:33 <njsg> but, other than this all? It adds a huge complication to authentication
17:08:01 <njsg> and now provides an easy way to prevent third-party clients, which usually wasn't a problem so far with regular authentication
17:08:23 <njsg> because, at least with Microsoft, they do check the program ID and they have a set of allowed clients
17:09:15 <njsg> this is basically paving the way for Hotmail to become what it was in the late 90s/early 2000s, a service without an open protocol, that you could use only in, say, Outlook Express
17:09:47 <nsITobin> yeah and then you will need an app password AND a code from your phone
17:09:54 <nsITobin> and your normal pasword
17:10:04 <nsITobin> and a code from the email address you are trying to access
17:10:18 <nsITobin> njsg: tell me I'm wrong lol
17:11:18 <njsg> nsITobin: I once achieved the magnificent scenario of a recursive e-mail validation loop. thankfully, one of them wasn't mandatory, otherwise I'd have been locked out
17:12:17 <nsITobin> mattatobin.com expiring makes it so i can't get into my email at namecheap to get the code to get into namecheap to pay name cheap to either renew my domain or renew the email service
17:15:20 * njsg 's brain halted processing: Too many levels of symbolic links
17:16:04 <nsITobin> njsg: better than an unpatched 20 year old xml recursion OOM bug
17:16:13 <nsITobin> because no one could agree on a depth
17:17:01 <nsITobin> did mozilla ever decide one one.. or did they solve the problem by pushing xml into near obscurity
17:17:37 <njsg> better than java at least back when I was learning it in university
17:18:08 <nsITobin> java.lang.NullPointerException is my experience with java on everything
17:18:16 <njsg> and we were told that Java lacked tail call optimization
17:20:42 <frg_Away> I like java sorry :)
17:22:23 <nsITobin> frg_Away: elfhack works
17:22:24 <nsITobin> ac_add_options --enable-elf-hack
17:22:24 <nsITobin> ac_add_options --with-linker="bfd"
17:22:24 <nsITobin> export LDFLAGS="-fuse-ld=bfd,-Wl,--no-rosegment"
17:23:49 <njsg> from what I understood back then it was a thing with java specifically, and the language has meanwhile added support for that IIRC
17:24:05 <njsg> the JVM either always had, or at least had it already back when I started using java
17:24:40 <nsITobin> export LDFLAGS="-fuse-ld=bfd -Wl,--no-rosegment"
17:35:05 <nsITobin> ok after some further testing it seems the with-linker option is incompatible with LDFLAGS that depend on specific linker options cause the fUse is being placed after.. causing a configure test error .. we need to get configure to put its with-linker value before adding any LDFLAGS from the env
17:35:32 <nsITobin> until that is done JUST do export LDFLAGS="-fuse-ld=bfd,-Wl,--no-rosegment" with --enable-elf-hack
17:39:02 <nsITobin> really --enable-elf-hack should be setting LD and flags something to enhance later
17:40:36 <nsITobin> but as I said to buc figured out what to do to work it as-is.. tested the release queue and the updated build system enhancements which do make things better and have an idea what to change/enhance later to actually fix it
17:40:49 <nsITobin> all in all successes across the board for the me.
17:41:02 <nsITobin> thanks to all of you
18:01:20 <nsITobin> no scratch that it still doesn't work
18:01:25 <nsITobin> why did it work before
18:01:29 <nsITobin> ugh
18:04:08 <nsITobin> ugh
18:04:35 <nsITobin> because you need to have both the configure flag and the ldlags else the build system isn't aware of it
18:12:36 <nsITobin> frg_Away: I think just the configure argument to set the linker to bfd is all that is needed the LDFLAGS seem incompatible with it and only in my original incorrect form were they silently ignored otherwise it errors out
18:13:26 <nsITobin> and those flags may be needed for newer fedora possibly but if this build works and it is reduced it will mean just need --with-linker=bfd will know shortly
18:32:51 <nsITobin> frg_Away: ok.. final instructions least on EL8.. --with-linker="bfd" --enable-elf-hack and that's it
19:52:26 <nsITobin> so njsg Kernel: arch/x86/boot/bzImage is ready  (#1) any bets if it will boot or not?
20:07:27 <nsITobin> man that is SO much better.. I should still -j10 or -j8 but at all cpus nearly pegged I am only getting the very occasional stutter from winamp and x11 .. this was virtually eliminated in the 6x series but this is .. acceptable.
20:08:34 <nsITobin> of course now I am responsible for rebuilding it for updates and if i didn't have a feature enabled.. but yeah no initrd builtin gpu drivers.. some minor config.. easy everyone should do it at the slightest bit of resistance from what is handed to you
20:12:42 <nsITobin> least now the kernel is efficient enough to unchecked building AND listen to music
20:15:48 <nsITobin>  	Linux 5.15.167 #1 SMP Wed Sep 18 14:33:57 CDT 2024
20:15:59 <nsITobin> according to seamonkey
20:42:40 <Sompi> I'm trying to find information about serial mouse protocols. For some reason Google gives much better results when I do the search using Firefox than when I do it using Seamonkey...
20:45:21 <Sompi> The results that Google gives to Seamonkey don't even make any sense anymore
20:47:23 <Sompi> The results for Firefox are already bad and don't contain the information that I need, but the results for Seamonkey are even worse
20:48:45 <tomman> https://github.com/electron/electron/issues/15691#issuecomment-2161904711 Word of God™ says "any platform other than x86-64 and ARM shall not exist for us, don't bother sending in patches"
20:48:50 <frg_Away> try startpage
20:49:39 <nsITobin> google results are constructed based on your browsing habits and previous search history and account data
20:50:08 <nsITobin> logged out google is useless
20:50:27 <nsITobin> logged in its still 60% useful cause it has a decade's worth of searching about mozilla shit
20:50:29 <nsITobin> :P
20:50:57 <nsITobin> google empowered mozilla to ruin everything.. google empowers me to undo it
20:51:48 <nsITobin> besides google isn't really as high on the list as it was still top five but microsoft is
20:52:40 <nsITobin> tomman: so they are ignoring RISC V
20:53:22 <tomman> they're definitely ignoring PPC, for sure~
20:53:37 <tomman> it's curious that indeed there is still no RISC-V Android stuff
20:53:52 <tomman> but then the current RISC-V SoCs are meh at best, and Android is a bloaty beast
20:54:53 <nsITobin> so who wants to help me fork a rust-free kernel?
21:44:17 <njsg> the Western Digital fork of version 5.0?
21:58:15 <tomman> I heard WD loves RISC-V