13:30:09 Status meeting starts in 31 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-06-16 13:39:58 Status meeting starts in 22 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-06-16 13:47:03 checking in to say here for the meeting! 13:58:07 off to make some breakfast~ 14:01:17 Status meeting time - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-06-16 14:01:51 Hi rsx11m 14:01:57 howdy! 14:02:07 doody? 14:02:20 exactly 8-) 14:02:26 hi rsx11m 14:03:02 hi .* 14:04:03 Who's taking minutes? 14:04:07 hi njsg 14:04:08 me 14:04:14 thanks 14:04:20 Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank? 14:04:59 I nominate Myckel for providing 2.53 patches for the build system 14:05:11 seconded 14:05:12 2nded 14:05:17 oked 14:05:20 s@2nded@3rded@ 14:06:12 Action Items 14:06:21 bau 14:06:46 so ctrl=alt=f shows a blank dark sreen 14:07:03 worn sindow 14:07:48 wrong window even 14:07:53 Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure 14:08:09 bau for me 14:09:08 ewong is slowly migrating linux boxes to Rocky from CentOS 14:09:35 makes sense... 14:10:01 meep 14:11:18 next one he's working on his aus2 (which is used for doing updates), so will have to wait for a few weeks after 2.53.19 gets pushed out 14:11:58 does this need a new update url or why the delay? 14:12:28 no will keep the existing update URL, just need to test the new box when it's not busy 14:13:43 so either taking over same ip or a DNS change only? 14:14:10 so no need to do anything different just the same rul will point to a different box 14:14:18 WG9s: DNS will just point to the new box 14:14:20 url 14:14:28 exactly 14:15:46 Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree 14:16:35 frg is amazing? that is the status lol? 14:16:47 Needed a minor patch to keep comm-central builds working just moving things from convars.sh to moz.configure 14:17:05 all building I think. I finally pused the outstanding patches to central 14:17:28 but ou see i just added a new outstncing one. 14:17:52 My wip queue is now at the end of 67 with SpiderMonkey patches. Dynamic import and bigint working. 14:18:23 frg: how much would we loose if we attempted an esr68 spidermoney graft? 14:18:25 yay :D 14:18:29 Still not good becuase need to rebase the optional chaining and regexp stuff. 14:18:38 my all platforms builds using latest WIP Queue running now 14:18:39 as in swap it out 14:20:26 eh I'll look into that soonish, sorry to derail 14:20:29 ContributorTobin not possible. They removed add-on compartments and other stuff. I also left out some global properties and multi realm comparetment stuff. A 14:20:39 ah 14:21:09 Will look at some if it later. Also fallout fro stuff outside SpiderMonkey like static component registration. 14:21:11 * ContributorTobin likes learning something about mozilla from other people for a change lol 14:23:09 if you grab the wip queue from https://gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-wip check the series file. 14:24:37 Release Train 14:25:01 mozilla-central-push_421799.patch to mozilla-central-push_460238.patch is the so far taken out stuff. 14:25:36 added the 2.3.19 beta bugs and switched nighty builds to 2.53.20b1 pre 14:25:52 Sorry took a bit longer for personal reasons again. 14:26:21 I think we can do the beta tomorrow. Looking into some sec backports today. 14:27:23 is sm's nss set to default to dbm or sqlite 14:27:31 With Cent OS 7 basically EOl do we still want to do x86 builds? My Proposel would be to end this with 2.53.19 14:27:34 i think I asked this before but I forgot the answer 14:27:41 sqlite 14:28:26 dbm is still built for udpdates from old releases. Might end this too soon. We just need a watershed release then for automatic updates. 14:28:35 frg: I agree, on ending x86 build production but to avoid a huge backlash I'd keep at least functional x86 around. 14:28:46 so they can build em them selves 14:28:53 frg: good news, Rocky 8 still seems to build x86 fine 14:29:09 IanN: which gcc version you using? 14:29:29 ContributorTobin: gcc 8.5.0 14:29:41 good version 14:30:12 4 7 and 8 do REALLY well on mozilla code in my experience 14:30:31 10 isn't too bad either 14:30:39 andit builds fine using clang for me 14:31:04 Personally I don''t want to rip out the code and WG9s can still build x86 for people who need it but it is a waste imho. 14:31:25 frg: anyway re nss so all that is left is to what shut down the migration? 14:31:57 but I am using clang 15.0.5 had an issue using later versions with it not bing able to find X11 libraries becuase of some build config issue 14:32:17 not sure what current state of that is have not tried later clang versions later 14:32:45 For the dbm issue I just remeber that this would just need a readme section. 2.49.x and older are not set for automatic updates. So can take it out and put it in the release notes to update to an older version forst if you update from pre 2.53 14:32:45 ment had not tried recenlty 14:33:29 Anyway dbm maybe for 2.53.20 14:33:51 frg: as much as *I* like dbm for sustainability (unless you wanna fork nss) it just needs to go away as one less complication. 14:34:16 2.53.19b1 has lots of stuff in but not much for eb compatibility. More a groundwork release. 14:34:42 yeah speaking of tthat fedora's start page is broken in sm lol 14:34:51 so please test. It is super stable for me. 14:35:06 I'll run the queue and thrash for y'all 14:35:54 ContributorTobin: broken in sm or server-side? 14:36:02 I'm getting a "... is offline" message 14:36:04 Timestamp: 6/16/24, 09:31:56 CDT 14:36:04 Error: SyntaxError: expected expression, got keyword 'import' 14:36:04 Source File: https://fedoraproject.org/_nuxt/entry.BoRD9q-g.js 14:36:04 Line: 23, Column: 24327 14:36:04 Source Code: 14:36:04 s:[],redirect:F==null?void 0:F.redirect,component:()=>r(()=>import("./404.DzcOTCdt.js"),__vite__mapDeps([0,1,2,3,4,5]),i 14:36:24 and some custom element placeholder animations 14:36:35 ah I was looking at fedora.org 14:36:43 just mentioning it cause well.. its set as the default homepage 14:36:53 https://fedoraproject.org/start/ 14:37:17 version 2.53.18.2-fc39 14:38:25 late? 14:38:29 hi world anyway~ 14:38:33 tomman: hi 14:39:12 ContributorTobin: that's probably default homepage for fedora builds, and if they have exquisite JS on the website their web site team needs to fix that. loads without JS for me, but seems heavy-ish? 14:39:19 tomman well i thought it was odd you left 5 mins before meting start to say off for bradkfast 14:39:32 and now I've got my breakfast~ 14:39:44 Extensions Tracking 14:40:01 It needs dynamic imports. My wip build can't load it because it als need the new regexp. 14:40:10 Redirector remains broken because its bundled jQuery is getting blocked from doing some formerly allowed stuff 14:40:16 bau 14:40:18 haven't really looked in depth how to address that 14:40:44 but if the brower and the webpage are form fedora sounds like a fesora bug. 14:41:00 2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable 14:41:12 WG9s: I agree but doubt they will 14:41:35 bau 14:41:40 it's sad when there are FLOSS projects that use these pages that require select browsers, if not also powerful GPU acceleration. Almost makes it look like I'm trying to play some powerful 3D game... 14:41:47 Sync as usual has a weave 1.1 php and server solution but webcompat takes priority 14:42:02 and I have tycho weave client as well.. 14:42:06 so same as alwys 14:42:34 no progress from me on the composer side, I didn't even manage to test a change to keep findbar search history between editors 14:42:44 I am thinking of still trying to get about:credits into 2.53.19 final i might try a all pages built-in no externl server required verison for now and then work on the website for 2.53.10 14:42:56 njsg: Doom 3 now runs on web browsers, jus' saying~ 14:43:06 but does it run on seamonkey 14:43:28 now I have no authority to do this but if I did DOOM on SeaMonkey would be second only to general webcompat.. because DOOOOOOOM 14:43:50 there is also that link color issue that was mentioned here some weeks ago, I think that one might already have a suitable bug report. IIRC the issue was that a stylesheet is removing color customizations for anchors, and my question back then was why was that rule added, didn't check that yet 14:44:32 so page style is overriding accessibility override colors? 14:44:35 ContributorTobin: SeaMonkey can at least handle a lite version of DOOM, the DOM. 14:44:40 * njsg hides 14:44:44 njsg: ! 14:45:53 AOB 14:46:28 Wayland support. How far up the patchqueue is it cause widgit code is kinda modular so it would be a good canidate to toy with patches between the queue and release.. 14:48:02 If i use the same approach as with SpiderMonkey about 5000 to 6000 patches. 14:48:19 so little ways off 14:49:22 well I'll put it on my list.. I'll also create a list. lol 14:50:05 aob bau 14:50:37 any other business? well, 2GiB RAM sure is not enough to have a few tabs open, funny how I manage to get SM killed even with NoScript enabled. No news there, and any handling from SeaMonkey itself would probably always require that I disable overcommit and the OOM killer. 14:51:05 Also, There is only XUL dot Org is no longer going to serve as an index and resource to mozilla projects due to lack of cross-community .. decency actually.. thus the xr subdomain will stand and the main domain is now redirecting to seamonkey.. 14:51:28 okay, thanks for your time today. Next meeting is in 3 weeks time, same bat channel, same bat time 14:51:55 see you in July! 14:51:57 IanN: thanks 14:52:13 ContributorTobin use xr almost daily. Thanks for providing the service. 14:52:30 ContributorTobin: agreed 14:52:38 Oh yeah, https://github.com/binaryoutcast/neptune is where I am developing the new add-ons server software. Which will be mirrored to gitlab eventually 14:52:45 cu ... here 14:53:25 frg_Away: xr needs some love too 14:54:05 frg_Away: I dunno how mozilla gets along on dxr/searchfox alone 14:54:37 I wonder what happens with searchfox when mozilla switches to git. I still think doing this is their biggest error in the last years. 14:54:38 isn't all GiggityHub these days? 14:54:45 not yet 14:55:01 still, mastodon/fediverse might think it is because somebody picked that up a couple days ago 14:55:08 (again?) 14:55:12 searching on gitschlub even with a supported browser is painful 14:55:30 it was already a bit useless before they started requiring JS and these extra features 14:55:35 frg_Away: going git would be fine if they were capable of producing a full fidelity repo which they aren't but will botch.. OR they said yep hg is done we will host the hg archive forever and we are starting from a fresh commit in a new git repo 14:55:38 now... it's probably faster to clone and grep 14:56:16 with git, I wonder if they do have reasons to switch other than "git is shinier" and people hating non-git because it's non-git 14:56:44 though one thing mercurial doesn't have, I think, is shallow clones. But perhaps that could be added to mercurial somehow? 14:57:01 for the kind of insane bullshit this project pulls with hg it would be moronic to dump it.. but hg as a default for everything.. its overkill and git is faster and somewhat easier to use 14:57:14 I think they wnt to get rid of own infra and the people maintaining it. 14:58:25 CaptainTobin: the problem nowadays with git is that for 99% of the newcomers out there, "git == Microsoft Github" 14:58:40 true 14:58:42 tortoisehg is way better than tortoise git and available on linux and macOS too. It is a great gui shell and another reason to stay on hg. 14:58:42 it's like saying all copiers are Xerox 14:59:03 on windows .. sourcetree 1.5 .. on linux i am struggling 14:59:04 lol 14:59:05 "git is faster" sounds more like an invitation to improve mercurial or implement a different set of tools for mercurial repos. but well, it's their repos. As far as they do try to keep history... lack of history is one of the biggest headaches I have when trying to investigate code changes, and that sometimes happen when I hit the mozilla mercurial epoch :-D 14:59:26 I think hg and git have their pros and cons and neither can completely replace the others 15:00:19 one thing to take into account is that mercurial is a DVCS, so there's less of a point in comparing this to a migration from, say, CVS. 15:01:26 can anyone remember the command to check the libstdc or glibc requirements of a binary? 15:01:41 but back to Tobin's point, if you're on the "it's all github" group and use it mostly on the web, then that doesn't matter so much, or, if anything, is a change from DVCS to non-D VCS, because then the website will be a SPOF. 15:02:25 IanN: there was some elf dumping utility that'd list the symbol dependencies, and there one could grep for ...STDCXX with a version, sorry, don't remember more than that right now 15:02:35 well running a forge with mozilla sized code is a damned nightmare I do NOT recommend it.. 15:02:48 is it ldd? 15:03:14 not sure, that lists dependencies on libraries, at least by default I'm not sure you'll get these symbols 15:03:57 I'm the captain now. 15:04:41 IanN: possibly readelf, it has a --symbols? 15:05:10 njsg: I think ldd -r -v 15:05:29 https://dpaste.org/cgnMR/raw 15:05:29 ? 15:06:34 https://dpaste.org/xtnKP/raw 15:08:05 i think displays the same info just in different formats 15:09:10 thanks njsg and CaptainTobin 15:09:37 ignore no-csd 15:09:39 lol 15:09:42 from my output 15:10:09 I think ldd is also showing info for other files that are pulled in, now this might be what you want but might also show other stuff, say, if the current system requires a newer glibc++ from a non-seamonkey library, that'd not be a requirement for the build in another system? Or am I overthinking this? 15:12:13 ldd's man page mentions objdump too, I wonder how useful that is, here -p is showing "Version References:" near the end 15:14:50 man pages are sexist.. 15:14:58 I read that on the internet 15:15:19 :D 15:15:52 ok, in that case I'll use the naming I most often use: 15:16:02 ldd's online manual page mentions [...] 15:16:47 online manual pages are abist, some people can't comprehend simple instructions or directions 15:16:56 ableist* 15:17:03 i read THAT on the internet too 15:17:34 sorry njsg lol 15:18:15 i like reading man pages on https://linux.die.net/man/ 15:18:28 so that'd make it an online online manual page? 15:18:51 linux die maaaaaan 15:18:53 lol 15:38:20 frg_Away: do you consider dictionaries to be a user submittable add-on or a project provided add-on 15:38:59 user submittable 15:39:20 locales? 17:16:49 CaptainTobin not sure if there will be any locales. I would say project until we actually encounter one in the wild for testing. 17:18:28 language packs are in webext format now and if soemthing like the old cZ pack would even work now beats me. 17:33:47 frg_Away: understood, I have updated the intended userlevels to be user, developer (user with a reviewed add-on), reviewer, staff (moderation escalation, recover stuff, delete stuff, and project add-ons like locales), and Admin who can override everything update anything delete anything.. its an Administrator lol 17:59:02 at first sigh I feel like suggesting "add-on developer" for clarity, but maybe that's excessive 18:01:07 (but well, if you're adding the descriptions nearby, then it of course isn't much of an issue anyway) 18:05:29 njsg: I just didn't feel like typing Add-ons repeatedly https://github.com/binaryoutcast/neptune/issues/1 18:05:35 i updated the issue with em 18:06:21 njsg: I totally agree 18:09:07 the number of times I have said Add-ons this Add-ons that Add-ons Team Add-ons Site since 2014 is astronomical 18:10:41 I think my type/subtype system will work best cause there is no way of knowing if there won't be a whole NEW kind of extension tech but there always seem to be at MINIMUM.. extensions, themes, locales, and dicts so subtypes make a lot of sense 18:12:34 it has been years and I still am not used to the naming being "add-ons" 18:12:43 * njsg is from the "extensions" and "themes" era 18:13:03 mozilla fucked this up when they made extension and add-on interchangable 18:13:06 heck, I'm from the era where having an extension manager was a new thing 18:13:10 when they introduced the overarching term 18:13:18 njsg: same.. 18:13:49 in my view they aren't interchangeable, I've always seen add-on as a module that can be extension, theme, langpack, ... - but maybe that's misinterpretation? 18:14:13 * njsg started, he thinks, with Netscape 7. 18:14:16 it is the correct interpretation that I enforced on the moon 18:15:42 https://addons.palemoon.org/?component=discover 18:16:00 that reworking of What are Add-ons? 18:16:19 is the single reason anyone can know what the hell anyone is refering to when they complain something is busted 18:18:34 i was a dick about it tho 18:18:53 i would just reply with the add-ons manager text in a quote until they corrected them selves 18:18:59 best not to continue that behavior 18:19:32 njsg 20:07:43 remember Fig Newtons are not cookies they are fruit and cake 23:06:31 DuckDuckGo: search result descriptions may include traces of LLM. 23:07:16 or is this just randomness? 23:39:15 njsg: are there any remaining just... crawler search engines left 23:43:58 I'm not entirely sure what's going on there, somebody on Mastodon said it was using LLM-generated page descriptions, one thing for sure is that descriptions may change between refreshes 23:44:28 for some pages I see part of the content there, doesn't look far-fetched, but I didn't try further