00:16:56 <njsg> Sompi: sorry that I can't be of more help, if you find some solution please do tell, I'm curious
00:19:32 <njsg> so far the few things I've found (mostly on the StackExchange network?) suggest the problem is indeed labels being a different kind of element that's meant to be connected to another one
00:20:13 <njsg> now if HTML had a toggle button element, maybe that could be used and styled for this
00:21:44 <njsg> google really really wants "toggle button" to mean something else
00:22:12 * njsg points to button in VB6 toolbox: "I want *this* one, Google"
00:22:46 <Sompi> AFAIK everything that works by mouse should also work via keyboard
00:23:56 <njsg> labels kind of fit into that, the issue is that the labels and the elements they're attached to seem to count as a "single entity" for that
00:24:33 <njsg> (even with the checkbox visible, it still wouldn't style the labels as "focused", would it?)
00:28:47 <Sompi> probably not
00:29:08 <Sompi> I think it also draws that dotline around the actual checkbox
00:29:13 <Sompi> s/also/only/
00:34:58 <tomman> remember when Visual Basic 6 promised "webapps"?
00:35:12 <tomman> and by "webapps" they meant "ActiveX documents"?
00:37:40 <njsg> I did use Windows Update :-P
12:28:55 <CaptainTobin> I WAS HERE FIRST frg_Away
12:28:57 <CaptainTobin> lol
12:29:00 <CaptainTobin> good morning
12:29:29 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin hi
12:31:37 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: I HONESTLY didn't think gtk could get worse than gtk3
12:31:44 <CaptainTobin> but boy is gtk4 a riot
12:32:49 <CaptainTobin> I think I need to fork several gnome gtk3 components and apps cause the same components are even more crippled and almost unthemeable
12:34:44 <CaptainTobin> I dunno .. seems like tangible rejection to me.. people don't like Plasma.. Trinity.. people didn't like gnome 3.. MATE.. people don't like gtk3 MATE.. OpenMATE /(hopefully), another direction was cinnamon.. guess I may start another in my mad Windows NT on Linux scheme
12:37:23 <CaptainTobin> forking GTK3 its self is beyond my capabilities for now but I don't REALLY have to worry about that.. I seriously think despite these distros like Fedora pushing it down everyone's throat... These distros have to start considering the actual end user and not the corperate strategic allience if they ever hope to not be dominated by anyone who bothers to put in some effort
13:03:21 <njsg> CaptainTobin: eh, didn't you see gtk+2? And then how it was improved with gtk+3? At that point, gtk4 comes as no surprise
13:03:24 <njsg> at least to me
13:03:51 <njsg> it'd be nice, though, if they planned to let gtk+3 reach a *stable* state for some months or years before starting to replace it with something else
13:16:24 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin well gtk4 is one more  step in the right direction. When they are done it will be a smash hiit as a new brand of toilet paper. Slogan maybe:  gtk 5 3-layer tissuewe know best how to do snd make  sh*t disappear.
13:17:41 <njsg> too usable. gtk5 toilet paper will be the seashells thing from demolition man
13:18:41 <WG9s> if seems they are now tring to keep the gtk version number in sink with gnome so gtk4 might be less different than gtk3 that you think just gtk diesined for gnome version 4
13:32:41 <IanN> Status meeting starts in 29 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-06-02
13:36:14 <CaptainTobin> WG9s: I don't like the new gtk4 versions of the gnome components I use
13:36:26 <CaptainTobin> they look worse they act worse and functions are cut
13:36:57 <CaptainTobin> also i can't nocsd any of it
13:37:08 <CaptainTobin> most i can manage is removing the caption buttons for gtk4 crap
13:37:51 <WG9s> checking in for the meeting
13:39:05 <WG9s> yes seems can no longer use a .ico file in a .desktop file as the app icon
13:40:00 <WG9s> not sure if that is gnome or gtk issue
13:40:04 <CaptainTobin> well i plan to patch gtk3 its self for nocsd and fix the ico situation but otherwise make no othr changes to gtk3 .. also work on a csd whitelist for stubborn programs
13:41:08 <CaptainTobin> this can all be laid back at redhat's feet tho .. redhat powered by ibm
13:41:16 <CaptainTobin> that is why wayland and gtk4 and everything
13:41:43 <WG9s> i thought .ico meant an icon file requiring .png or .svg for an app icon just seems wrong.
13:42:02 <CaptainTobin> WG9s: ok i can't agree with you there
13:42:31 <CaptainTobin> what is a vista icon.. its a windows icon with an extra png layer
13:43:35 <CaptainTobin> WG9s: what is an icon? its just a propritary specially encoded image file
13:44:00 <CaptainTobin> now fonts as icons.. THAT I have a bone to pick
13:45:04 <CaptainTobin> JAFFA KREE EMOJI KEK
13:45:35 <CaptainTobin> now that is Goa'uld NOT memespeak
13:45:40 <CaptainTobin> just to be clear
13:46:15 <CaptainTobin> but *I* shouldn't have to read glyps as words in sentences or menu items
13:48:00 <CaptainTobin> raster graphics forever!
13:48:18 <CaptainTobin> vector graphics can draw a line and just keep on going.. away
13:48:19 <CaptainTobin> lol
13:48:46 <CaptainTobin> I hope you have enjoyed the Pre-SeaMonkey Status Meeting Entertainment!
13:51:39 <frg> ico was(/is just an image fomat. And not one either. More a container for different resolutions too.
13:52:44 <CaptainTobin> On one hand.. embedded icons are great on the other hand.. you can replace images somewhere on the filesystem so easily
13:53:13 <CaptainTobin> chrome/icons is a favorite for the more classically mozilla inclined
13:55:02 <CaptainTobin> frg: do you think a major issue in software development is the focus on making things easier on the developer staff severely crippling making things easier and better for the end user?
13:56:46 <CaptainTobin> welp no time for that now the meeting is in five minutes
13:56:51 <CaptainTobin> :P
13:57:53 <frg> CaptainTobin I like to avoid complexity but dumbing down is notthe answer
13:58:18 <njsg> hi .*
13:58:52 <WG9s> njsg: hi
13:59:25 <njsg> WG9s: CaptainTobin: can PNMs be used as icons in desktop entry files?
13:59:44 <CaptainTobin> that's a new one for me
13:59:52 <CaptainTobin> or did you mean PNG
14:00:22 <CaptainTobin> njsg: yes icons can be used for icons tho traditionally it was what xpm?
14:00:37 <WG9s> I am just trying to figure out to to get the cZ .ico file used as a desktop icon
14:00:41 <njsg> Portable aNyMap
14:01:01 <njsg> has binary, grayscale and full color formats, and ASCII and "binary" encodings
14:01:06 <CaptainTobin> i don't think Linux supports windows icon files
14:01:09 <CaptainTobin> broadly
14:01:15 <CaptainTobin> tho kde might
14:01:31 <njsg> I think I've seen these called net-something. "netpbm" rings a bell?
14:01:57 <njsg> ah, netpbm is a library for PNM images?
14:02:14 <frg> Hi rsx11m
14:02:18 <CaptainTobin> interesting
14:02:24 <rsx11m> hi everybody
14:02:27 <CaptainTobin> sup
14:02:29 <IanN> Status meeting time - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-06-02
14:02:32 <njsg> eh, sorry for derailing the meeting start time with UNIXy(?) image formats
14:02:35 <njsg> hi again .*
14:02:45 <WG9s> cZ .ico file works fine with fedora40 not at all with pre-release fedora41
14:02:52 <CaptainTobin> one man's derailing is another's killin time
14:03:01 <IanN> Who's taking minutes?
14:03:31 <rsx11m> netpbm should be available on any Linux distro and comes with various executables to translate from and to PNM formats
14:03:35 <frg> I do
14:04:03 <frg> Just added the last one. Sorry for the delays lately.
14:04:30 <njsg> no worries, and thanks!
14:04:33 <IanN> thanks
14:04:36 <IanN> Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank?
14:05:01 <WG9s> frg for doing the minutes for these meetings
14:05:13 <rsx11m> seconded
14:05:14 <njsg> thirded
14:05:24 <IanN> fourthed
14:06:29 <IanN> Action Items
14:06:45 <frg> bau
14:07:08 <CaptainTobin> you guys need infra as in web infra.. according to this
14:07:11 <CaptainTobin> and kinda quick
14:07:16 <CaptainTobin> what can I do to halp
14:09:42 <frg> ewong is mostly doing this. I don't think we have any immediate need but IanN may correct me if I am wrong.
14:10:58 <IanN> I don't ewong is doing anything with add-on hosting at the moment - I had created a repo to host the code, but not got very far
14:11:06 <CaptainTobin> i have a 60 gb 2 cpu 2gb ram server I been paying for and literally have done nothing with do you guys just want control over it cause if not I am likely gonna cancel it.. you run it I pay for it..
14:11:25 <IanN> s/don't/don't think/
14:13:08 <IanN> Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure
14:13:27 <IanN> I've been working with ewong on some VM consolidation
14:13:59 <njsg> for add-ons what's needed? web interface and hosting for the extension files themselves, and (D)VCS hosting for source? (or well, the latter could be another repository along with the ones that exist already?)
14:14:28 <CaptainTobin> add-ons are not difficult.. do you want a new add-ons infra?
14:14:34 <CaptainTobin> i mean it is kinda my speciality
14:15:31 <IanN> njsg: source can probably go on gitlab/heptapod, so just working out the best way of displaying addons and how much it's integrated into add-on manager
14:15:41 <frg> CaptainTobin problem is as always that we need to have it embedded in our infra including domians So best to coordinate with ewong. I am not ure when MZLA will pull the plug on curent dd-ons site forus.
14:15:49 <njsg> (there was that site archiving a bunch of extensions that went away, I think it is still at least partially in the wayback machine, that was nice, a simple interface with a list of extensions; but now there's probably the need to apply modifications too)
14:15:55 <CaptainTobin> doing add-ons source hosting is a humoungous effort .. hosting xpi and doing infra is reletively trivial in compairosn for an add-ons site
14:16:41 <CaptainTobin> I .. think its best I don;t repeat the MCP arrangement and mistakes.. I can do the software you can host it .. maybe work in some federation by 2030 lol
14:18:10 <frg> sounds like the right timeframe :)
14:18:52 <CaptainTobin> summer of Tobin.
14:18:56 <CaptainTobin> i mean code
14:18:59 <CaptainTobin> .. or do i
14:19:16 <njsg> legacycollector.org it was, e.g. http://web.archive.org/web/20191029182504/https://legacycollector.org/firefox-addons/2516/index.html
14:19:30 <IanN> CaptainTobin: we have a gitlab repo where we can host the source code, assuming the licensing allows for it
14:19:54 <CaptainTobin> traditionally I do MPL but it can be MIT if you want but some parts will be MPL
14:20:09 <CaptainTobin> like the part that can read install.rdf for instance
14:21:09 <IanN> it would be nice if we could host our SM releases on gitlab
14:21:29 <njsg> as in the tarballs and zips?
14:21:45 <frg> I think it is possible but unsure.
14:22:00 <CaptainTobin> well get ewong to give me the general specs of a general SM server and I will take that crappy little server and match it so the software can be developed on a similar environment it is gonna run on
14:22:00 <IanN> njsg: yeah
14:22:26 <IanN> CaptainTobin: if you know Azure, it's a B2s
14:22:48 <CaptainTobin> like nginx vs apache php version general distro type i mean
14:23:05 <CaptainTobin> What does microsoft run linux wise?
14:23:42 <CaptainTobin> eh that can be dealt with later on.. don't let me derail cause you know i will lol
14:24:15 <IanN> CaptainTobin: I will ask ewong, as he probably has plans to move it to Rocky Linux 9
14:24:44 <WG9s> the nightly tarballs are at https://archive.seamonkey-project.org/nightly/latest-253-source/index.html
14:25:36 <IanN> CaptainTobin: but it will probably be running on Apache - I will check versions with ewong
14:26:12 <IanN> Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree
14:27:11 <frg> all building
14:27:28 <frg> I am still benindwith reviews and checkins to central.Sorry.
14:27:43 <WG9s> cmm central seems to need MozillaBuild 3.4 with the python3 form MozillaBuild version 4 plus the patch from gitlab central to permit building with MozillaBuild 3.4
14:28:41 <frg> My personal 2.53 wip queue is now at the start of 67a1 wrt spiderMonkey. dynami imports arre working. Big int should be soon too.
14:29:41 <frg> Because of needed rebases for preliminary stuff like optional chanaing and new regexp these are currently out.
14:29:58 <WG9s> I do builds using the WIP queue whenever frg updates with his queue.  CUrrently working fine
14:31:56 <IanN> I'm just trying not to break stuff with my backports
14:32:20 <IanN> so far just broke stuff due to case sensitivity/insenitivity
14:32:39 <frg> I everything outside js should not break anything.
14:33:49 <IanN> frg: I should try harder :P
14:34:55 <frg> IanN well integrating takes some time. I really which I could just do the rebase and move it over into the regular one but notat a ppoint whrere I want to tackle it.
14:36:48 <IanN> Release Train
14:37:41 <frg> 2.53.19b1 is a bit delayed Sorry. Didn't mage to set it up yet properly.
14:38:22 <frg> ^manage
14:41:30 <IanN> Extensions Tracking
14:41:38 <frg> bau
14:42:44 <IanN> thanks
14:43:01 <IanN> 2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable
14:43:13 <frg> bau
14:43:59 * njsg trying (not hard enough) to tackle one or two composer issues
14:44:03 <CaptainTobin> Sorry I had to step away regarding mozillabuild windows toolchain.. I think someone needs to basically fork and update 3.4 components until you become msys2 capable
14:44:47 <WG9s> I am still trying to figure out the issue with MozillaBuild version 4 and the windows scheduler wo that by automation builds no longer are stuck at MozilaBuild 3.4
14:45:09 <CaptainTobin> interesting
14:45:16 <CaptainTobin> ok then ;)
14:45:29 <frg> CaptainTobin whole python 3 can be compied from msys2. Running 3.9 now. Updated nsis too to 3.0.8
14:45:48 <njsg> updating the patch for 1070492 was easier, now comes figuring how to make it have the same state between views, I forgot to at least ask about that in the bug but frg noticed when he tested. could be just added to the documentation but might be too confusing to keep this way
14:46:14 <frg> Looked at the msys2 stuff but don't have time for it yet.
14:46:51 <WG9s> CaptainTobin: builds using 3.4 using the python2 from MozillaBuild 4 work if you add this patch https://www.wg9s.com/comm-central/patches/seamonkey-central-patches/mozilla-central/patches/PPPPPPP-MozillaBuild-34.patch
14:47:25 <CaptainTobin> I have my own modified copy but it isn't proper or rather not proper enough
14:47:28 <WG9s> python3 ont 2
14:47:42 <frg> just for clarification. central only. No need to patch for 2.53
14:48:18 <IanN> rsx11m: I've stolen bug 1437393 off you
14:48:25 <WG9s> yes mozilla-central reusires MozillaBuild 4 but only becuase of pytone version
14:48:37 <njsg> and for bug 687482 (#c3) I have no clear idea yet if the controllers can be instead attached to the window without causing issues
14:48:39 <CaptainTobin> I am ignoring cental else I may start making seamonkey on central work again.. and that is a multi-year timesink even tho it would be amazing
14:48:50 <njsg> WG9s: so this is just because it bundles python code inside mozillabuild?
14:49:11 <frg> njsg yes
14:49:48 <WG9s> yes so instead of providing a msys (not sys2) with the required version of python3 they decided to just make te build require MozillaBuild 4
14:50:36 <CaptainTobin> WG9s: well if you need an extra poker to poke at it let me know if you run into trouble.. i still have a windows 10 install for emergencies
14:54:30 <IanN> any AOB?
14:55:28 <CaptainTobin> are you sure a wiki is a good idea vs a git controlled content repo?
14:55:41 <CaptainTobin> and the site just syncs the repo and displays it
14:55:59 <njsg> IanN: none here
14:56:13 <frg> aob bau
14:56:24 <CaptainTobin> wikis are easy to abuse have high sec requiement and just a pain in the ass unless you have a team dealing with it
14:56:52 <IanN> CaptainTobin: for what?
14:57:06 <CaptainTobin> to replace mozilla wiki
14:58:09 <IanN> CaptainTobin: true, but needs to be something that is easy to use for non-technical people
14:58:33 <IanN> I'm away 21st-23rd June
14:58:53 <IanN> so can bring forward a week or push back a week?
14:59:06 <rsx11m> 16th or 30th?
14:59:33 <IanN> basically, I'm easy either way
14:59:40 <frg> either way.
14:59:51 <njsg> "no strong feelings, one way or the other"
15:01:21 <rsx11m> someone role a dice? ;-)
15:01:24 <CaptainTobin> i don't want to dictate your infra seamonkey is not the same kind of project that MCP was up to despite similarities.. and they had no real origin infra and way of doing things.. I provided that.. you guys do however I'd feel like crap if I just kept my insights to my self and those insights played out and such.
15:02:13 <CaptainTobin> my birthday is the 21st does that help?
15:02:22 <IanN> 16th then
15:02:42 <CaptainTobin> tho i'd spend part of it here anyway
15:04:52 <rsx11m> ok with 16th (I guess)
15:05:06 <IanN> i'll call that a meeting then
15:05:12 <IanN> thanks for your time today
15:05:25 <IanN> next meeting in 2 weeks time, same bat channel, same bat time
15:06:01 <rsx11m> so noted
15:06:05 <rsx11m> bye!
15:06:18 <njsg> cya
15:07:58 <frg> cu
15:08:35 <rsx11m> IanN: thanks for "stealing" bug 1437393 by the way 8-)
15:09:31 <IanN> rsx11m: no worries
15:09:54 <rsx11m> I was stuck anyway and much has probably changed since...
15:11:45 <IanN> rsx11m: I think there was just a few pre-reqs that were needed
15:12:48 <rsx11m> yeah, it's tough to keep track of what's happening where ;-)
15:13:00 <rsx11m> something was clearly missing
15:14:00 <CaptainTobin> i can't wait to get PHPing .. i will target apache because I haven't used apache in years and if you guys opt for nginx later it won't be a problem
15:16:07 <CaptainTobin> hell i should have been supporting both from the start not either or
16:27:29 <MattATobin> IanN_Away: Legacy Collector is a sore spot for me.. he was a periphral participant in the Tobin/JustOff war and people either trying to agree with me or simply to screw me started harrasing him in my name.. which pissed me off because those were not my orders and it did me no favors
16:28:30 <MattATobin> and then he deleted it all and vanished
16:29:58 <MattATobin> that and other reasons is why explicitly in what is laughingly called the Code of Conduct explicit instructions not to start a war.
16:48:08 <tomman> damn, missed the meeting due to a power outage, then updates :/
16:59:57 <MattATobin> Phoebus was designed for low resource-ish use on simple nginx/php setup this new Add-ons Site should simply have a server api and frontend that way the frontend can act as a client to the backend server with only as much complexity as is required
17:01:01 <MattATobin> the server and fe website being in that way will allow better security than your average digital ocean mcp server
19:56:59 <MattATobin> frg_Away: herb seeds in dirt.. add water.. get herbs.
19:57:53 <MattATobin> one should always have fresh herbs if possible and if doing freezedried put em in an actual sealable air tight container so they don't loose whatever flavor they retain
19:59:23 <MattATobin> what does this have to do with php and an add-ons site? Have to have good ingredients like optimism and flexability and some care.. like growing herbs .. sure you can get herbs by just putting seeds in dirt and throwing water on em.. BUT you get better herbs if you take care to plant them carefully and water them the correct amount.
20:06:17 <njsg> if I may interject: coffee.
20:06:22 <njsg> :-P
20:17:53 <MattATobin> coffee is a spice not an herb
20:17:56 <MattATobin> njsg:
20:18:35 <MattATobin> on an unrelated note i been trying to find a coffee based meat rub but they seem to have all vanished
22:06:02 <MattATobin> bacon for all!
22:15:00 <njsg> I still say that caffeine &gt; all
22:15:14 <njsg> (that's going to confuse people reading ircbot, sorry)
22:15:22 <MattATobin> njsg: caffeinated bacon forall!