14:19:53 https://brr.fyi/posts/engineering-for-slow-internet we should send all framework developers to deploy for 3 years at the South Pole 14:35:19 dats fuking lame dip shit 14:37:22 in that article, "South Pole" means specifically Amundsen-Scott? 14:41:01 ... yeah, I guess the current trend in JS development is to either have no error handling or to intentionally render it useless somehow 14:42:31 this is *not* an edge case, these are things that should work, at the very least don't handle "slow" or "unreliable connection" as a failure... 14:42:41 remember when programs could fit on floppies? 14:43:28 also, the poster forgot one entry in the list of people who could see issues like this: "There are a lot of people behind Broadcom WLAN NICs" 14:45:14 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/google-starts-deprecating-older-more-capable-chrome-extensions-next-week/ 14:52:34 tomman: we could also replace these framework developer's network gear with 10-base2 14:55:02 njsg: ironically the dude that wrote those is a SV hipster that yes, he went to South Pole for a year 14:55:29 life at Amundsen-Scott precludes 50MB JS framework bloats and "Netflix and chill" 14:55:59 what I didn't knew was the hostile anti-caching measures webdevs were using for pissing off users on unreliable connections 14:57:33 at least in hindsight it does feel a bit obvious some people would come up with that 14:58:01 but yeah, I don't think I remember seeing that before, at least not so clearly 15:03:30 > Apple naively assumed that the 1 GB download would be so fast that they didn’t bother incorporating download speed feedback into the updater’s time estimate. They did not anticipate people installing macOS updates from a location where a gigabyte of downloads can take several hours, if not days. 15:03:56 Apple doesn't believe in users living in places with spotty/slow Internet, film at 11 15:04:14 the engineers at Cupertino have never seen anything but unlimited gigabit fiber since they started working there 15:08:34 > Credit where credit is due – Microsoft has a GREAT auto-updater built into Office for Mac! 15:08:39 now THAT'S an irony 15:09:22 apparently it's even better than Windows Update, but then MS usually has written a better Office for Mac than for Windows 15:10:56 Windows Update, at least in NT 5.1, had serious issues, I think somewhere that was attributed to throttling by MS, for older versions 15:11:52 and I don't think I recall cases in recent times where update progress bars tracked anything more than the difference between 0% and 100% for each update, even in update-specific "wizard"-like dialogs it seems to lack precision 15:12:17 I've seen the progress indicator on Google Play Store going _over_ 100% many times 15:12:23 at this point it looks like getting a list of downloads applied and a list of downloads available and manually fetching one by one is much, much faster 15:12:40 plus, at least for NT 6.1, Microsoft still hasn't understood the concept of dependency management 15:13:24 Windows Update will take ages to propose an update that requires another update, but without pulling in the second one, then repeating the process probably requires starting from scratch zero, and unless the missing dependency is installed, it'll all fail again 15:14:10 Windows Update has always been unreliable trash since its early days, back when it was named under the unfortunate name of Critical Updates Notification Tool 15:14:50 then the very first implementation of what we know today as Windows Update (delivered with 98SE/Me) was... well, there was a reason many people just ignored it :D 15:15:05 I'm not even sure I've ever known it by a name other than "Windows Update", that said I think either that was v4 or at some point was "updated" to v4, so not an early one, I presume 15:16:05 IIRC the story goes like this: Critical Updates Notification Tool/Utility -> WU v1 -> v2 -> v3 -> v4 -> v5 15:16:31 v1 was shortlived, v2 debuted with 2K/Me (and backported to 98), v3 came with XP 15:16:43 well, the one for windows 4.10 IIRC at least allowed a workflow of "go check for updates, you get a window". In my experience, more recent ones are like "go check for updates" [minimize] [force re-open] "checking for updates" [check completes, minimizes again] [reopen, go over list] "install" [minimizes again], all along with all the settings that'll nag you to no end unless you opt by having at least 15:16:49 something automated 15:17:04 uh? then why do I remember seeing "v4" in 98? 15:17:08 they really ruined it with Windows 10 and its complete inability for the end user to manage updates 15:17:15 njsg: IIRC v4 was the last to support 9x 15:17:33 ah, that's it, then. It's not like I used 98 for a short time. 15:17:42 http://windowsupdaterestored.com/ 15:17:50 http://windowsupdaterestored.com/en/compatibility.htm 15:18:02 hmmm, looks like V1 was the Notification Tool 15:18:05 WU debuted at v2 17:19:17 hmmm, for some reason video playback is breaking after some time here 17:19:25 videos load, but won't play or even show a frame at all 17:19:32 after restarting SeaMonkey, everything works OK 17:47:29 is scripting involved, or that can be reproduced when the tab content is the video itself? 17:59:35 here is the use case I know: open any tab with a video (so far I'm noticing that on Danbooru, but then I rarely visit video sites these days) 17:59:42 it will work fine 18:00:03 but after a few days (dunno how many), open the same tabs and video will not show at all, just the player controls 18:00:10 no sound will play either 18:00:16 but the network inspector says it actually loads 20:43:37 tomman: so the tab is always loaded anew? 20:43:48 or do you mean switching back to it again some days later? 20:43:53 no, a new tab 20:44:23 does it only happen with videos that were already played in the session, or does it affect any video? 20:45:02 say, would a certain green-on-black weblog what has moved to videos instead of gifs reproduce this too? 20:47:13 Basically it seems to be "any video" 20:47:25 even ones previously played on that session, or being played for the first time 20:48:00 * njsg wonders if there are ways to play audio internally 20:48:01 lemme check anywya 20:48:21 I suppose Chatzilla, Mail&News and/or Lightning might have "sound alerts" of some sort? 20:48:33 what I'm thinking is the question "is audio failing too?" 20:48:59 videos indeed do not play on THAT site too 20:49:05 the thumbnail loads fine 20:49:11 what environment is this on? were you on b1pre? pulseaudio on linux? or a custom build? 20:49:12 but once you click on Play... the player does nothing 20:49:25 Build ID 20240504213200 20:49:34 oh and actually, if you have an instance open where you can reproduce this, do you see any relevant error in the browser console? 20:49:42 the player doesn't even tell the proper video duration - it's all 0:00 20:50:02 I've seen that with videos playing, before they load, might be just how it starts 20:50:24 I never looked too much into it, most of my experience with video is Mastodon's insistence that everything must be transcoded to something that's not GIF even if it says GIF 20:50:33 the error console come clean 20:50:49 and videos indeed DO download, they just won't play or even decode the very first frame 20:55:20 (just to be sure, you checked the *browser* error console?) 20:57:05 there is also at least one preference controlling JS logging, I'm not sure if that might be hiding something. 21:03:41 yes, that browser error console is empty 21:03:50 but next time I restart the browser, I'll keep it open aside 21:43:10 with the debugging dump setting(s?) enabled, if you are on linux, starting from a terminal device should print stuff there too 21:43:53 (terminal emulator probably, as this is the kind of stuff where having a dedicated scrollback buffer with easy copy/select-paste helps :-) 21:44:08 but I do know some DEC VTs have enough scrollback and copy-paste too) 21:45:29 oh wow. I was having slowness issues in M&N today. I just realized: It's probably an emoji causing font fallback. 21:47:22 emoji fonts: one of the most backward decisions in tech 21:47:35 Anyway, I'll update my nightly now~ 22:01:53 OK, backed up profile, updated, restarted (twice!), played a couple of videos, everything normal so far 22:02:05 but I noticed the error console is clearing itself after a few seconds 22:02:24 or to be more precise, after page navigation events 22:22:06 tomman: that looks like the page console in the devtools inspector 22:24:53 http://sininenankka.dy.fi/~sami/asd/dropdown.htm 22:25:03 I noticed that this is not usable with keyboard 22:25:20 the browser does not allow opening that dropdown menu by the tab key 22:25:57 «input type=checkbox»? 22:26:48 even if I switch caret browsing on, it does not allow selecting that dropdown menu with keyboard 22:27:35 maybe that's something that should be possible for accessibility purposes 22:27:50 that is a very basic dropdown menu that is done completely without JavaScript 22:27:56 it has to be a checkbox so that it remembers its state 22:29:42 njsg: no, that's the error console 22:29:44 ah, I didn't notice at first that the checkbox isn't visible, so this is about the labels? how should keyboard focus work for these? any chance it's intended to work this way, i.e. labels are skipped in tab order because the tab order would also have the elements the labels apply too? 22:30:23 but keyboard usage is not possible even in caret browsing mode 22:30:24 tomman: more traditional, XUL-looking? Hm, here that console doesn't behave that way 22:30:39 Anyway, your broken website of the day: https://www.hmd.com/es_lta/nokia-215-4g 22:30:41 Sompi: an aside, I'm probably lacking some context, but why not