17:18:26 <njsg> and the winner in today's "jumps into the AI hype" bingo is... big blue's red hat?
17:28:53 <CaptainTobin> njsg: yeah they are gonna ruin linux too
17:28:57 <CaptainTobin> thank Son_Goku for that
17:29:28 <CaptainTobin> he is literally now sitting on boards out to ruin xorg suse and always fedora/kde
17:29:59 <CaptainTobin> and simply won;t stop or accomidate things that are important let alone people
17:30:31 <njsg> one thing that keeps bugging me, xorg and freedesktop might be xorg and freedesktop, but AFAIK xorg isn't synonymous with X, yet some comments seem to suggest X is going to end as if freedesktop had a monopoly on X11.
17:31:23 <CaptainTobin> but we aren't at the point yet where x11 has no development outside of wayland
17:31:28 <njsg> There's apparently at least one BSD not only doing changes to xorg, but also apparently using some stuff in drivers that xorg never had (but was in xfree86?)
17:31:30 <CaptainTobin> and not being shipped
17:31:40 <CaptainTobin> so until that happens and likely years after ..
17:31:57 <njsg> CaptainTobin: https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/x_org_on_netbsd_the
17:32:00 <CaptainTobin> consider how long it has taken to get someone to fork the gtk2 version of mate.. for a real gnome/2 desktop
17:32:05 <CaptainTobin> and it is one of us
17:32:13 <CaptainTobin> well when I was apart of an us
17:32:14 <CaptainTobin> anyway
17:32:37 <CaptainTobin> OpenMATE is being done by a Pale Moon community member who stops by occasionally
17:33:31 <njsg> gtk could have used a fork back then, right now either one recovers gtk+2 support, or a lot of packages aren't going to take much advantage of it. but imagine, gtk+ with stable theming!
17:34:21 <CaptainTobin> well the squash vaporwared that dream for years
17:34:26 <njsg> could still happen and be used, although I'd really, really, really, really appreciate if the file picker were *not* like the gtk+2 one
17:34:40 <CaptainTobin> now it seems .. people inspired even if they don't admit it by stuff I have helped do is doing it
17:35:11 <CaptainTobin> the gtk2 one is better than the gtk3 filepicker
17:35:13 <CaptainTobin> at least
17:36:05 <CaptainTobin> if they can pull it off I will package it for Fez Enterprising Linux..
17:36:11 <CaptainTobin> as the default desktop
17:36:18 <CaptainTobin> and include it in snowball
17:36:54 <CaptainTobin> I wonder if fedora will put xorg into epel for rhel 10
17:37:24 <njsg> gtk2 already had a lot of sniffing and whitespace and usability problems
17:37:38 <CaptainTobin> well it should be forked
17:37:44 <CaptainTobin> along with openmate
17:37:54 <CaptainTobin> which it kinda has to be but i wonder if they will figure that out
17:37:54 <njsg> (which isn't surprising, as usability problems started way before gtk+3, not to name any specific internet lore mailing list posting...)
17:41:54 <CaptainTobin> i iwsh trinity desktop wasn't such a chaotic disappointment
17:42:10 <CaptainTobin> that hasn;t really advanced the state of trinity much past kde35
17:42:29 <CaptainTobin> not in the same way say UXP has advanced
17:49:30 <CaptainTobin> njsg: so you figure bsds will keep x11 alive for everyone?
17:49:52 <CaptainTobin> also i kinda like if xorg was a monolithic package
17:51:25 <CaptainTobin> I am having a real problem as I explore these package systems like rpm but others too.. I always considered a package system to be first and foremost for the ease of the end user but these packages are setup not to make it easier for the end user but make it easier for the packager
17:51:42 <CaptainTobin> ironically these things make it harder for me
17:51:59 <CaptainTobin> and as an end user I am not too thrilled either
17:52:21 <CaptainTobin> so it looks like I have to invent a new packaging frontend for rpm at the very least
17:53:38 <CaptainTobin> i dunno i like mozilla packaging .. xpinstall
17:53:50 <njsg> CaptainTobin: I figure it's important that it's known freedesktop doesn't mean X, and that there is active maintenance, lest people abandon it because they've been misled.
17:54:10 <CaptainTobin> yeah
17:54:30 <CaptainTobin> I am gonna do less deeming and more listening for a while
17:54:34 <njsg> it's starting to look like there are people actively trying to spread the idea that X is dead because X is xorg-freedesktop and freedesktop is now focusing on wayland
17:54:46 <njsg> not that that stopped them from replacing the build systems
17:54:57 <CaptainTobin> yeah and my friend Son_Goku is at the middle of it.
17:54:59 <CaptainTobin> pushing it
17:55:18 <CaptainTobin> it sure has done a number on my stability
17:55:34 <CaptainTobin> because of everything I and others may want in addition or instead
17:57:05 <CaptainTobin> the PR seems constructed that this whole redhat dropping xorg for gnome its only desktop and fedora kde dropping xorg for kde session before kde does.. and it is a common belief that redhat via fedora have deemed them selves the surpeme arbiters of linux past the kernel but also the kernel
17:58:07 <CaptainTobin> even in the Pale Moon Off-topic lounge out of public view there is a thread going on about it but titled to imply fedora/redhat dropping it means everyone else
17:58:36 <CaptainTobin> but it isn't like the forum isn't known for inaccurate reporting and an agenda
17:58:38 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:59:52 <CaptainTobin> the real issue I have is that all this .. tech-fixing is happening between conspiring corperations in the same field.. this has gone WELL beyond standards
18:00:40 <CaptainTobin> they are legislating and judiciously enforcing social constructs
18:01:19 <CaptainTobin> on top of specifically driving virtually everying in a very unnatural direction at the near exclusion of EVERYTHING else
18:01:21 <CaptainTobin> njsg:
18:03:16 <CaptainTobin> what can't be wholesale tossed is rewritten until its useles and needs wholesale tossed.. from code to hardware to relationships to projects to organizations they seem to want it all and only their version of it
18:05:46 <CaptainTobin> well I for one require x11
18:06:22 <CaptainTobin> and gtk2 is still a good toolkit with lots of theming and everything
18:06:35 <CaptainTobin> and if I know c/cpp i'd fork it..
18:08:02 <CaptainTobin> gnome/2 may not be ideal as an environment but it is a very very decent environment that really made the attempt on a functional level.. and that's really the thing.. gnome before 3 had all the windows like function but kde always had the windows like frills .. why the HELL didn't someone just do both
18:08:38 <CaptainTobin> of course today that isn't a problem.. the design patents for 3x and most of 4x are progressively expiring
18:09:09 <CaptainTobin> you can design a completely say.. windows 95 and lower windows UI without a problem as long as you don't use any ip resources or code
18:09:50 <CaptainTobin> 95 without desktop update i mean
18:13:32 <CaptainTobin> really that is my overall linux goal .. a truely classic windows experience on linux.. from the graphics up it is visually a possible version of windows that should have been released as windows is my aim
18:14:40 <CaptainTobin> I want linux to be similarly gui configurable as windows is again in a way that yast never managed
20:48:26 <CaptainTobin>  /join #fedora-kernel
20:48:39 <CaptainTobin> yep banned
20:48:43 <CaptainTobin> oh well