16:29:00 <MattATobin> beep boop beep
16:29:26 <MattATobin> frg_Away: is there an existing bug regarding devtools on central?
16:29:48 <frg_Away> MattATobin for SeaMonkey?
16:29:52 <MattATobin> ye
16:30:31 <frg_Away> don't think so but maybe an older one. Need to check
16:31:24 <frg_Away> MattATobin Oh Bug 842942 is a meta bug
16:31:38 <MattATobin> cause the first patch I was gonna do is introduce my slighly genericized loader with the devtools and chrome clh flags (removing the flag from suite glue so it doesn't conflict if/when it gets fixed. and because --chrome is a dep on --devtools functioning)
16:32:42 <MattATobin> which will allow you to spawn any chrome window again and launch devtools on whatever startup window starts up first
16:32:56 <frg_Away> MattATobin is this mozilla oder comm code? If mozilla code can probably only exist in the patch queue forever.
16:33:07 <MattATobin> comm code only
16:33:23 <frg_Away> ah ok. Did you get my email?
16:33:37 <MattATobin> I did
16:33:40 <MattATobin> electronic mail!
16:33:46 <MattATobin> you doing ok?
16:33:56 <MattATobin> anyway the only mozilla patches I have made are to free up the few spots of hardcoded thunderbird only exceptions to firefox
16:34:08 <frg_Away> oki. Was just for clarification so you know what is going on.
16:34:43 <MattATobin> I appreciate that!
16:35:38 <MattATobin> restoring a form of useable devtools is internal to suite/ only along with a couple of required ftl files the platform expects the app to have.
16:35:48 <MattATobin> THO central is buildbusted right now due to another issue
16:35:58 <MattATobin> mailnews relies on an xpcom interface defined in mail
16:36:09 <MattATobin> because openpgp is no longer optional
16:40:48 <frg_Away> Bill did a few patches which need to be applied: https://gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-central-patches/-/tree/master/comm-central/patches?ref_type=heads
16:41:34 <frg_Away> https://gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-central-patches/-/blob/master/comm-central/patches/9999999-suite-bustage.patch?ref_type=heads
16:41:40 <MattATobin> oh about redirector
16:42:42 <MattATobin> neat
16:44:35 <MattATobin> one of the big jobs is converting js xpcom components to xpcom enhanced jsms to esm modules
16:45:05 <MattATobin> from js xpcom component to xpcom enhanced jsm is mostly mechanical
16:45:20 <MattATobin> i think
16:47:01 <MattATobin> frg_Away: if I could get https://github.com/bgrins/xbl-analysis working i might be able to use it to convert xbl bindings to xul customelements
16:47:17 <MattATobin> including stuff left out of even Thunderbird
16:47:55 <MattATobin> as well as some from extensions as well
16:48:25 <frg_Away> Well rdf and xbl are things I not even care about much in 2.53 so if we can get stylo working later might be something for there too. Not that I am hot about custom elements too.
16:49:29 <MattATobin> the following also need to happen xhtml wise.. all non-window root elements need to be made window and then xhtml with a xul namespaced body minimum that includes prefpanes wizards and pages
16:53:26 <frg_Away> and the import statements changed numerous times too.
16:53:50 <MattATobin> well Services is just builtin now
16:56:49 <MattATobin> editor .. composer is the component least likely to survive because there is no guide to follow past thunderbird's useage of it.
16:59:15 <MattATobin> not saying it can't be fixed just it seems more like a final boss .. you've faced devtools, and glue.. navigator and slogged through mailnews NOW you face the dreaded SeaMonkey Composer!
16:59:16 <MattATobin> heh
17:00:23 <MattATobin> So old it doesn't even have toolkit customizable toolbars
17:00:56 <MattATobin> unless you added that in 2.53
17:01:38 <frg_Away> Well when we are at a point where Composer affects us we could decide. IanN_Away did some patches for 2.53 so not sure about the toolbars any longer. I think they are in 2.53 and central.
17:05:03 <MattATobin> Thunderbird's take on customizable toolbars is sure closer to the toolkit form than customizableui is.. and they previously translated the xbl to a xul ce so that exists tho xul toolbar spring element no longer exists.. but thunderbird has something in their new customzable unified toolbar so some hope. And yeah I am actually learning webcomponents
17:05:33 <MattATobin> and it is confusing
17:05:42 <Sompi> now my online bank has also stopped working on Seamonkey
17:05:51 <Sompi> they use at least jquery, react and google's tracking scripts
17:05:56 <MattATobin> but once I got xr to figure out mjs is javascript that connected some dots for me ;)
17:06:20 <Sompi> but the page somehow detects when the browser console is open and doesn't render anything, so it is probably almost impossible to debug
17:06:52 <Sompi> "TypeError: O.get(...).then(...).catch(...).finally is not a function
17:06:52 <Sompi> [Learn More]
17:06:53 <Sompi> CsrfProvider.tsx:19:9"
17:06:54 <MattATobin> yeah that is a consiquence of scammers using devtools to scam people by editing the dom
17:07:21 <Sompi> the page has three megabytes of javascript and it's all minified
17:07:30 <Sompi> it used to be pure HTML just few years ago
17:08:11 <MattATobin> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1019116
17:08:30 <frg_Away> this one is on for sure
17:08:36 <MattATobin> i figured it was
17:08:56 <MattATobin> you're more or less what 62-68ish js wise?
17:09:09 <frg_Away> probably private class files or something else again
17:09:33 <Sompi> but that file doesn't even have a line like that
17:09:33 <frg_Away> 2.53.18 60 soso plus/minus 59 for sure
17:09:41 <Sompi> the line 19 is completely different
17:10:28 <Sompi> actually the whole devtools somehow goes completely crazy about that
17:10:31 <MattATobin> Sompi: debuggig minified js is a pretty impossible task when you don't have cooperation of the people who wrote the site and there is still a lot of discrimination for not being latest broken mess perpetually
17:12:05 <Sompi> yes, but I'm trying to figure out what part the js parser fails at
17:12:21 <Sompi> but it's impossible because the server just serves some random crap when the page detects that devtools are open
17:12:33 <frg_Away> check for import statements or # declarations
17:12:46 <Sompi> half of the lines are html and half of them are javascript
17:13:02 <Sompi> in a way that is in no way correct syntax
17:13:15 <MattATobin> well it likely isn't standard js
17:13:23 <MattATobin> or obfuscated
17:13:31 <MattATobin> what site is this?
17:13:36 <Sompi> op.fi
17:14:06 <Sompi> I think some script tells the server that the user opened the devtools, and then the server starts outputting some nonsense instead of the documents that it should
17:14:11 <MattATobin> could run a manual broad regression with firefox see when the site starts working
17:15:22 <MattATobin> start with esr52 go 60 68 78 once you narrow down the range between esrs you can switch to release versons.. Just make sure to disable auto-updating on firefox via a preferences file so it doesn't automatically update str8 to latest
17:16:04 <MattATobin> narrowing it down to a specific firefox version could help in figuring out what is happening if manual scan or a text search for known new shineys doesn't turn up anything all that useful
17:16:19 <Sompi> why are they even using such advanced javascript on an online bank?
17:16:35 <MattATobin> because money
17:16:42 <Sompi> they used to have a pure html version of the online bank and it worked on lynx
17:16:49 <Sompi> but they removed it for "accessibility reasons"
17:17:05 <MattATobin> Is that relevant?
17:17:13 <Sompi> and replaced it with a javascript hell that only works with internet explorer, firefox and chrome
17:17:52 <Sompi> and now this new online bank doesn't even always work with firefox
17:17:56 <MattATobin> anyway first do what frg said and see if there are any import statements or # declariations
17:18:00 <Sompi> now it is completely broken on seamonkey
17:18:15 <Sompi> I'm too tired of this shit
17:18:48 <MattATobin> well it would help if you could see if those two things are there like frg asked
17:19:04 <MattATobin> and if not maybe do that regression thing
17:19:13 <Sompi> but the site refuses to load when I open the devtools
17:19:17 <MattATobin> I don't have an account so I can't do it
17:19:18 <Sompi> so I cannot even see what's in there
17:19:24 <MattATobin> view source
17:19:38 <Sompi> the javascripts are in separate files
17:19:40 <MattATobin> open the individual linked js files
17:19:44 <Sompi> and they cannot be loaded individually
17:19:49 <MattATobin> yeah aren't they linkified
17:19:57 <MattATobin> in the markup?
17:20:02 <Sompi> they are
17:20:06 <MattATobin> click em
17:20:12 <Sompi> but the js files cannot be loaded individually
17:20:18 <Sompi> the server doesn't allow that
17:20:29 <Sompi> and now it already kicked me out
17:20:47 <MattATobin> https://www.op.fi/opfi-base-theme-theme/js/op-common.js
17:20:50 <MattATobin> that opens
17:20:50 <Sompi> and logging in costs one more one-time-use password
17:21:00 <Sompi> those aren't free
17:21:13 <MattATobin> huh
17:21:26 <MattATobin> i generate one time password codes on linux?
17:22:43 <MattATobin> anyway Sompi I do completely understand your frustration but mixing in a technical issue with the asides of how crap new stuff is just distracts from the issue at hand.
17:22:57 <Sompi> yeah
17:23:25 <Sompi> but that online bank seems to be impossible to debug, so it is not relevant in the context of browser developing
17:23:55 <Sompi> now it stopped working on seamonkey, while I was using it and paying things
17:24:00 <Sompi> suddenly a blank page
17:24:05 <Sompi> they updated something there
17:24:43 <MattATobin> Well if you can't access the JS.. go play pin the tail on the firefox to find out what gecko version it works.. That way I can look into what changed between those releases and HOPEFULLY find what to tell the frg what needs ported
17:24:48 <MattATobin> That's the theory anyway
17:25:28 <Sompi> even the ESR version of Firefox is nowadays "unsupported" with many websites
17:25:43 <Sompi> meaning that when they detect an ESR version, they just refuse to work and show a message that your browser is outdated
17:25:46 <MattATobin> they jumpped the gun.. new esr isn't till july lol
17:26:23 <MattATobin> but i am saying esrs are a good way to broadly segment the releases for this kind of manual regression testing
17:26:34 <Sompi> and the non-esr version is broken in many other ways
17:26:36 <MattATobin> or future feature testing
17:26:42 <Sompi> because... because it's non-esr
17:26:48 <MattATobin> Sompi: wait so this doesn't work in firefox?
17:26:49 <Sompi> unstable shit
17:26:55 <Sompi> MattATobin: I haven't tried yet
17:27:02 <Sompi> because it costs money
17:27:08 <MattATobin> then how is it broken?
17:27:16 <Sompi> I don't know is it or not
17:27:53 <MattATobin> well you are only interested in finding the version it started working in
17:27:58 <MattATobin> do test current firefox tho
17:28:08 <Sompi> I go buy groceries
17:31:34 <MattATobin> well what do you expect me or someone actually apart of this project to do for you dude, i mean the js is account walled off and even when you log in you can't inspect the js. If you want an answer dude let alone a fix it would help to have at least a hint of what the issue is. Only way I know how to do that besides devtools and error consoles is to test each version until it works except *I* can't nor can frg or the others ..
17:31:34 <MattATobin> unless we banked at that bank
17:35:25 <MattATobin> Sompi: let me put it like this.. when you run windows or whatever os you are on.. do you automatically blame windows when some random program breaks or just won't run anymore.. the browser is being treated as an operating system these days and websites as applications.. So in that context, how much does microsoft fix windows because one program is broken by their own changes not microsoft's
17:36:16 <MattATobin> i mean pre windows 8 windows
17:37:05 <MattATobin> I kinda feel it is unfair to put so much emphasis on the browser being compatible with the site when it should and orginally was the site was compatible with the browser
17:37:40 <MattATobin> imo and by all rights this site should be open to anything that has basic html5 and es6 support
17:37:46 <MattATobin> that is what I believe
17:38:17 <MattATobin> tho i'd prefer xhtml and es5 personally
17:40:08 <MattATobin> The WhatWG has rejected <style scoped> restoration in favor of @scoped { ... }
17:40:36 <MattATobin> does seem you can use it in nested style tags not just the style attr but .. i dunno
18:10:54 <Sompi> MattATobin: I'm blaming the bank. I don't understand how professional web developers can produce such shitty code
18:11:15 <Sompi> And use javascript for literally everything, when it's just static content
18:12:56 <MattATobin> I am not a *professional* web developer unless you count HotDog Professional by the Sasuage software company
18:13:02 <MattATobin> so idgi either
18:14:57 <MattATobin> but.. that's the name of the game and has been for a while. Anyway, i still suggest you run that pin the tail on the firefox feature version and narrow it down but if someone actually on the council should have a better idea then I suggest you do that first
18:15:59 <MattATobin> if not instead
18:20:33 <MattATobin> also Sompi and this is just a personal request from me, I am trying very hard to look for options, solutions, and generally being more positive and well frankly.. nice.. while trying to figure out how to navigate in this messed up world i spent a decade trying to ignore .. not just for me but for everyone seemingly left behind by the mass insanity tech has been infused with so it would be helpful to me and perhaps others if you
18:20:33 <MattATobin> toned down the everything is crap asides at least not interleaving them with reporting issues. Tho have no authority to make you do that it would just help me a great deal to stay focused on positivity and practical accomplishment and contribution to a better future for as many as possible
20:05:56 <njsg> tomman: what about matrix bridges, how well do these work? I see some channels on IRCnet are bridged somehow. One even seemed tightly integrated, but I might be misremembering
20:06:44 <njsg> (tightly integrated as in messages are shown as coming directly from the matrix user, and not from a bridge bot nick)
20:11:01 <njsg> Sompi: there's a non-devtools error console, and a devtools one, is the netbank site detecting both?
20:11:42 <njsg> it should also be possible to enable these errors being written to the process output (UNIX-like system) or to a separate window (Windows)
20:13:05 <njsg> Sompi: used to be pure html? I know there was one bank which pushed hard on using their app and everything six years ago, I was surprised that one didn't revamp the netbank itself in such a way.
20:15:02 * njsg wonders about having javascript print out Python or Java-like backtraces :-P
20:21:29 <njsg> Sompi: is there anything one can test without having an OP user account? Some page that's representative of the breakage?
21:45:45 <Sompi> njsg: probably not
21:52:03 <MattATobin> njsg: how's that libra to matrix bridge workin for ya
21:52:05 <MattATobin> ;)
21:52:56 <MattATobin> oh yeah it was always unreliable and error prone and was shut down and is never coming back and matrix nor libra seem much bothered by it
21:55:55 <njsg> no idea, but I guess there might be also something on the IRC server itself there
21:56:07 <njsg> at utwente.nl? not something I've looked into, though
21:57:36 <njsg> oh, possibly matrix and discord?
23:55:45 <MattATobin> njsg: XML4Life
23:55:57 <MattATobin> xmpp was always the superior protocol