13:54:23 the download link there is broken https://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/nightly 15:22:41 Sompi: the correct link is in the topic 15:23:28 https://archive.seamonkey-project.org/nightly/ 15:29:57 reporting the issue to people should really be https://archive.seamonkey-project.org/nightly/comm-253-latest/ 16:05:28 WG9s: how large is the entire at least RELEASE versions of seamonkey? 16:06:57 would be a question for ewong: all i know id what is in https://archive.seamonkey-project.org/nightly/comm-253-latest/ 16:07:46 we should really rig up your build system to produce xz compressed tarballs 16:07:52 so the 1,52 nightly builds i do I con;t do all the languages I only do de and the rest langpacks. 16:08:04 do de jsut to aid frg 16:08:41 well that was one solution I gave to the issue of loosing mozinfra 16:08:49 just a couple of guys doing builds 16:08:59 lol 16:09:22 ewong does the official release builds 16:09:38 yeah but you don;t have a tinderbox fleet anymore 16:09:45 like in the old days 16:09:59 solution, couple of guys doing builds 16:10:07 not anywhere so i just check what happend after the build completes or does not 16:10:32 nothing that goes red when a build fails other than I get a tst on my cell phone 16:11:49 no tinderbox builds or tinderstatus add-on that puts a red box on my statusbar 16:12:25 kist i do builds and if they fail i try to fix 16:13:03 othersise up to whoever posted the last patches has to fix et 16:13:06 etc 16:13:27 works only becoause just three of use posting anything 16:14:31 there are 3 others contributing but frg seems to be doing the posting of their stuff 16:15:46 this is on 2.53 no one is really posting anyting on central expect me only fixing build bustage 16:16:24 Well then certainly time for a change. 16:18:08 i have put my thundebird stuff on hold until I build a basic custom element cause there is some piece of it I am missing that I know would tie up the concept for me.. just gonna have to go through creating one step by step 16:18:28 gonna do that maybe tomorrow 16:20:54 today I am doing server stuff and my xre app stuff which in turn illuminates central for me and as I explained earlier if you wanna chance to run the suite on central you need a piece of it that works with devtools and that is exactly what I am doing for my example app. So I figure add a "reconstruction" component based on it that can also spawn all the various windows for fixing up. 16:21:00 if you are serious about trying to get central actually working bug 1452448 at one time had most of the things needed but i don;t think it is still being maintained. i would do a linux build with debug enabled and then fire it up from a terminal window and look in the window for etrors encounted during startup as good places to start. 16:21:59 I am serious about everything I wanna do.. BUT I hold no expectations of making it viable but if it suddenly became as such so much the better. 16:22:33 It would be stupid to get hopes up on it.. BUT better central functioning will allow better compairitive testing and faciliatet backports 16:22:48 Right now I am still experimenting 16:22:57 well other that what i just said I am not in charge here. you need to be yalkting to either frg or IanN 16:23:04 I mean I made a main window spawn with an e10s browser that goes to a site 16:23:05 lol 16:23:55 Sompi: i asked to have the link changed 16:23:56 WG9s: yeah my main aim on suite on central is maybe have that as an option in the list of choices for you guys if possible 16:24:07 i am not gonna try and railroad you guys into doing shit 16:24:10 that has NEVER worked 16:24:11 lol 16:26:00 But without an overpaid team of crack modern developers I think the add a piece in that works and spread out from there is the best and simplest option almost totally originating out of stuff I am doing anyway 16:27:28 Cause MINIMUM suiteglue, browser content handler, and devtools init on navigator.xul has to be done before you can do anything otherwise 16:28:35 but all i do is builds. only people who can r+ a patch are frg and IanN 16:28:55 why I said you need to talk to them and not me 16:29:27 well yeah I have to one.. do it, two organize it into consumable and nicely patchable bits, create bugs or "throw it all on frg's desk" and hope for the best lol 16:29:33 only thing i can add to the gitlab aueue are build bustage fixes 16:30:21 I wish I could help on the webcompat bugs 16:30:31 but even if I did it would be outside the patchqueue 16:30:33 if we could get the UI to actually appear that would probably be changed to I can also fix startup issues 16:31:01 WG9s: one preference can make navigator.xhtml show UP but it won't do nothin but be a few toolbar border lines 16:31:31 the reason it doesn't is because suiteglue is an xpcom js component NOT a staticly registered xpcom jsm 16:31:34 thing 16:31:38 so it can't run 16:31:47 so it doesn't do dick let alone spawn the main window 16:32:16 using the toolkit.defaultChromeURL preference you can get the toolkit default commandline handler to spawn any winder you want 16:32:36 but that won't do much without devtools 16:34:00 now knowing that and fixing that are two way the hell different skill levels 16:34:02 lol 16:35:22 WG9s: i am not gonna lie.. this is like making the jump from 1.8.1 to gecko/24 16:36:48 the TRADITIONAL way would be to follow each and every mozilla release up the line fixing everything and then just slapping that over central. But that may actually take longer than fixing central in place might 16:36:51 at this point 16:38:27 you know Thunderbird DID convert the customizabletoolbar binding to a customelement tho still xul based so there is that too and they have a statusbar 16:39:27 I dunno it is exciting to me to wanna give it a shot even if it just improves backporting 16:51:39 I want to compile Seamonkey to non-SSE2 targets 16:51:58 Currently rustc does not allow that 17:02:48 Some time ago I saw some dude that made a Rust compiler backend for Win9x, which also means "pre-SSE2 targeta" 17:03:10 can't recall it now, but I guess a bunch of patches and stuff are involved, so nothing you're going to find on upstream Rust 17:27:01 Sompi: have you ried uilding sith any of the i586 targets? i586-pc-windows-msvc i586-unknown-linux-gnu 17:27:28 I haven't got the build process working at all 17:27:56 I tried to do it based on the Mozilla documentation but the build scripts had some hardcoded paths and it didn't work on Slackware 17:31:42 Sompi: why focus on that when webcompat is an issue 17:32:22 I also tried to compile Firefox 17:32:43 what is the benefit to them to support old computers when webcompat is a lingering issue 17:32:57 I mean non-sse2 17:33:06 that's 15+ years old i bet 17:33:30 you can't expect today's software to run or run well on ancient hardware no matter if the UI happens to fit in with the era 17:34:09 What is "webcompat"? 17:34:32 web compatibility, able to go to websites and have them work in the browser/navigator 17:34:59 I occasionally used a Pentium III computer to browse web and it worked just fine with all sites that I use, but then Seamonkey and Firefox started giving "incorrect instruction" errors because rust adds those SSE2 instructions there 17:35:29 well the web as a whole has made pentium III a no go 17:35:46 this isn't the world wide web anymore dude 17:35:47 I wrote a javascript game that works just fine on that computer 17:35:51 600 MHz Pentium III 17:35:57 this is the openweb of closed proritary webapps 17:36:11 Or worked, when Seamonkey still supported that CPU 17:36:32 ContributorTobin: If I have a i686 package of some program, I expect it to work on Pentium Pro 17:36:45 that's not reasonable 17:36:47 dude 17:36:48 Rust devs are assholes and they break their compiler on purpose 17:37:01 It is reasonable to assume that i686 means Pentium Pro 17:37:08 It has always meant it 17:37:23 Why have 32-bit builds in the first place if you only support Pentium 4 which is already 64-bit 17:37:33 pentium 4 is not 64bit 17:37:53 Prescott is, and the other versions are slower than Pentium III 17:38:01 ok 17:38:24 and no one can realistically support hardware that old 17:38:36 It is not old 17:38:45 it's 2024 dude 17:38:48 And it does not need to be "supported" 17:39:13 The idea of public source code is that the program can be compiled to any target 17:39:17 .. kinda does by every lib compiler and dep that goes into compiling seamonkey 17:39:21 Seamonkey is not written in assembly 17:39:33 some of it is 17:39:47 What modules? 17:39:47 there IS assembly in the tree 17:40:09 Sompi: go find it. 17:41:28 there is assembly, c, cpp, xpidl, ipldl, webidl, javascript from es4ish to latest there is xul, html, css, python, perl, bash, maybe even a lingering batch script.. 17:41:31 It is a web browser and supposed to be multi-platform 17:41:40 Sompi: what os is you issue building for non-sse2? 17:41:46 it's an internet application suite 17:41:49 actually 17:41:52 WG9s: I tried it in Slackware 17:42:30 hmm well not sure if they support rustup and adding targets 17:42:57 What linux distros should work? 17:43:06 Sompi: Multi-platform hasn't meant multi-architecture outside arm and recently with risc-v for like 15 years cause no one cares about old processors nor failed lines such as itanium 17:44:02 ContributorTobin: If the program is written in high-level languages, it should compile just fine to any target 17:44:08 multi-platform means windows, linux, macos 17:44:41 The rust people are just breaking target compatibility on purpose and it will destroy Linux 17:44:54 Sompi: you're clearly not listening nor willing to learn anything about what you are making broad, outdated, or incorrect assumptions about dude. It's not good for you. 17:45:43 but you might try adding ac_add_options --target=C to your mozconfig this might also require doing a rustup target add i586-unknown-linux-gnu first 17:45:49 I don't have money to buy new computers and also I don't want to produce electronic waste 17:46:09 WG9s: Thanks, but what linux distros are guaranteed to work with the toolchain? 17:46:24 No, WG9s Sompi knows exactly what he is talking about and surely does not need any advice. They are good to go and know more than we do about this codebase. It's cool. Off he goes! 17:46:37 I need to set up a virtual machine for compiling that it 17:47:02 Sompi: traditionally rhel or centos always works. just might not be the latest if it just came out. 17:47:36 ContributorTobin: well then perhaps I will just block both of you 17:48:05 WG9s: please don't 17:48:11 sorry 17:48:14 Does the current rustc even support 32-bit targets properly anymore? 17:48:50 32bit is gonna be harder for everyone to keep going just alone 17:48:55 I read that they completely dropped the support for different 32-bit x86 targets and now the compiler just can only produce 32-bit code for new x86 CPUs when asked 17:50:30 The switches for i686 and older were broken and Debian maintainers shipped their own patched version of rustc that used the same naming conventions for targets as gcc does 17:50:35 Sompi: I am sorry for jumping at you I didn't intend to do so. 17:51:55 And I tried to compile that patched version of rustc myself on Slackware, but the after compiling the toolchain detected a mismatch in some checksum and just downloaded the stock version of the compiler and replaced my modified version with it. :( 17:52:26 ContributorTobin: It's ok 17:52:50 Not really but thanks 17:52:59 (being ok) 17:53:49 I'll try compiling Seamonkey again on Redhat some day 17:54:05 on some el flavor it is pretty easy 17:54:18 but i dunno redhat has dropped 32bit as well 17:54:25 everyone is 17:54:53 If I knew how to cross-compile I'd tell you to try that 17:55:05 I been trying to work that out for years 17:55:32 apthat is what I tried to tell hum when you shut me off 17:55:38 Of course it would be cross-compiling, so the architecture of the host machine does not matter 17:55:41 I am sorry again 17:56:02 ContributorTobin: If you look up the most popular linux distributions from DistroWatch, most of them still support 32-bit x86 17:56:44 unfortunately latest rust does not support building for anythong older than i586 which migh not have been sufficient 17:56:51 32-bit x86 is not even rare. Many much rarer architectures are also supported 17:57:10 WG9s: What do they currently mean with "i586"? 17:57:32 i have no clue exactly how that differs form i686 17:57:42 was really just a shot in the dark 17:57:54 i586 is likely orginal pentium with mmx 17:58:12 For gcc and practically every sane compiler i586 means Pentium and i686 means Pentium Pro, Pentium II and generally any 32-bit x86 CPU without SSE2 17:59:36 i would think either i486 or u686 is shat might be needed herei think for this i586 means pentium and i686 mans current intel 17:59:47 but 32-bit 17:59:58 mode 18:00:31 i686 was the last ix86 ever used 18:00:52 so x86 but 32bit is how I have seen it used for well 15 years 18:01:07 ContributorTobin: AFAIK gcc does not produce MMX instructions by default when i586 is used. You need to use an extra flag to have MMX instructions 18:02:10 but for targets in llvm and therfore rust i686 is kind of using a new 64-bit ptocessor running a 32-bit app 18:02:27 so I thought i586 target might fix his issue 18:03:05 The thing is it is getting to the point where features needed do not exist on older processors and the cost of maintaining that code is large especially when everyone seems to want off intel x86 based anything in the industry or so they make it seem. I am betting on RISC V my self becasue a future that is all ARM isn't a future I want to live in. 18:04:23 I am not sure even UXP can be built with an i586 target successfully 18:04:26 IBM PC compatible machines with traditional BIOS were/are well defined and documented. Easy to write even operating systems for them so that it works on every computer 18:04:28 and it is plain gcc 18:05:14 Sompi: uefi is well spec'd and documented as well but no one follows it properly 18:05:26 ARM on the other hand is a complete opposite of that. And also modern UEFI-based PCs, basically the OS developer can assume nothing. The ACPI tables are complete crap and they are so on purpose, because Microsoft wanted it that way 18:05:28 oh well i gave up long ago on building seamonkey using gcc 18:05:54 WG9s: uses clang now everywhere doesn't it? 18:06:01 yes 18:06:07 well winders is a bit fuzzy but 18:06:17 cause all them vs components 18:07:05 i did switch to gcc fo my 64-bit linux builds on 2.53 becaue the mach buildsymbols things works better. but use clang for my 32-bit builds becuase they fail using gcc 18:07:20 sm is clang, mozilla is clang, I guess by extension I am clang too.. everyone is clang. *hits metal pot with a spoon* CLANGGGGGGGGG 18:07:21 We need a RISC-V system with a BIOS-like well-defined interface in its ROM 18:07:50 Sompi: design one ;) 18:08:52 so my 32-bit builds work but if they crash less sybols available to the crashreporter site 18:08:54 UEFI may be well documented and specified, but it is very badly designed 18:08:58 did you know the uefi standard requires that regardless of CSM the first sector of the efi partion must be allowed to direct boot 18:09:28 but no one supports it 18:09:36 hmm perhaps i dhould just build me 32-bit builds with strip disabled so that is not an issue. 18:09:57 ContributorTobin: If the "compatibility support module" is used, it should just load the contents of the first sector to address 0x7C00 and jump to that address, no? 18:09:57 or disable crash reporter 18:10:23 And not care about what's in the sector. Only check that the boot sector signature 0x55AA is there. 18:10:26 well that is even lamer so you have to debug locally so I sould have to disable sytip and enable debug 18:10:38 that isn't what I am talking about.. efi allows 1st sector native booting from an efi partition 18:10:55 without bios emulation 18:10:58 and that would mke the app bigger so less likely to work on an old 32-bit system 18:11:01 I know that many modern BIOSes, for example Insyde BIOSes, don't work that way. They refuse to boot if they don't see a MS-DOS/Windows compatible partition table there 18:11:07 but no one impls it or if they do it is busted and no one does it 18:12:01 ContributorTobin: Ok. I did not know that. Most UEFI implementations refuse to boot at all if there is no GPT partition on the disk 18:12:33 one good thing about building using clang is that as long as you are stuck using rust both are just front ends to where the real work is cdone and both use llvm so beter cmpatability between the c and rust code 18:12:45 I thought that they need the GPT partition table and a FAT32 partition there, where the EFI binaries are 18:13:37 rust clang and glan++ are all just front end parsers the real comiling for all three is done in llvm 18:14:30 Sompi: btw, Rust was created by mozilla and has a mozilla atmosphere even today do you HONESTLY expect Mozilla to keep supporting old cpus forever or push eeveryone to the latest by any means possible? 18:14:57 or not push* 18:15:21 WG9s: So is that why Mozilla switched, better rust interop? 18:15:36 i am not sure 18:15:53 I still feel it was a dick move to completely reformat an ESR tree mid-stream with clang formatting 18:16:07 basically makes diffing impractical 18:16:13 Mozilla is moving farther and farther away from free software ideals 18:16:28 ws not involved in that but seems on real compiler with just the front end parser front end being different sounded better to me for interoperability 18:16:34 Mozilla is a more complex situation than I may have portrayed in 2017 dude 18:18:09 and they have a lot of problems, most of which seems to be reactionary 18:18:24 A relatively modern browser for DOS would be cool 18:18:29 like how Firefox the UX has stagnated and the solution is shove in AI 18:18:33 seems like linux is more interested in rust than before instead of just aing thy would support drivers written in rust, now seem leaning toward rewriting parts of the kernel in rust 18:18:55 WG9s: we all saw that coming didn't we? 18:18:57 WG9s: Probably not going to happen before gcc can compile rust 18:19:31 so will anyone hardfork the kernel make it rust free? 18:19:33 lol no 18:19:39 The current official rustc compiler is in hands of people that purposely want to break stuff and rewriting static parts of Linux with rust would just destroy its portability 18:19:59 i hAVE NO IDEA JUST READING NEWS ARTICLES 18:20:10 oops sorry hit caps lock 18:20:25 THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!!!!! 18:20:26 lol 18:20:29 Many "news" articles nowadays are just hyping nonsense 18:20:38 Sompi: nowadays? 18:20:57 But gcc is going to have rust support soon 18:21:30 let's just rewrite seamonkey in objective-c and be done with it 18:21:33 And it will fix the issue with the targets 18:22:06 https://drewdevault.com/2019/03/25/Rust-is-not-a-good-C-replacement.html 18:22:14 no it isn't 18:22:22 it's cpp for javascript coders 18:22:31 who were not trained properly 18:22:37 strangly i don't know it 18:22:53 anyway biggest issue i have with rust is not with rust but is with mozilla. mozilla has these crates they provide to do things and they depend on mozilla added temp exceptions to the rust rules to make it easier to transition a mozilla module to rust and then they fix it all to actually comply with rust one transitiond and then the temp crap they did is no longer allowed in the next version... 18:22:55 ...of rust 18:23:25 was only evfver allowed with warnings that for a non-mozilla build would be errors 18:23:47 I almost started learning rust, but then I noticed that most rust advocators are shitheads, and as I wrote in the previous sentence, advocators. For them it is an ideological thing and they have long time ago stopped caring about the fact that things should also actually work and not just be ideologically pure 18:24:29 but that is why we have issues with seamonkey becuase we backport mozilla bugs that reauire the kluges and then update to a new version of rustc and suddenly it breaks 18:24:51 A memory-safe low-level programming language would be a very good thing to have. Too bad the state of rust is what it is. 18:24:51 that is not rust's fault that is mozilla's fault 18:25:16 WG9s: yeah, do you not have comm's rust workspace crate hack shit 18:25:35 I didn't check when it was done on central 18:26:01 anything in comm-central i have 18:26:18 but not in comm-release used for 3.63 18:26:24 2.53 18:26:34 cause and I am no expert, yet, but it looks like they use a hack to basically supply their own crates and include mozilla ones and generate an alt geckorust thing 18:27:59 Sompi: likely won't change until it is widely adopted and enough people at the same time come to the realization that it is incredibly broken and then they fix it which busts everythng before it and a whole new group is pissed off about it 18:28:50 rust is perfectly named.. the question is will the corrosion eat through everything before it is repaired 18:29:15 but 2.53 builds with latest rust. we don't use it for macOS because rust versions past 1.73.0 don't support as much backwards comparability as we ate trying to provide 18:29:42 yeah that is all new to me 18:29:46 or compatibility even 18:29:52 I know it exists and I can point to it 18:29:57 I can write programs in C. I can also weld metals. 18:29:59 that's about it on the rusty front 18:30:03 so far anyway 18:30:25 I can fix damages that rust has done. 18:30:29 Sompi: I wish I could write shit in C/CPP 18:31:09 I understand C++ but I don't memorize enough of its things that I could actually write it. But everything C should also be valid C++ so technically I can also write C++. :D 18:31:09 i wish i could go to CDC3300 assembly language 18:31:33 oh that is kind of how I do c++ 18:31:42 I did a little 68k assembly when I was hacking on a Sonic 2 for the megadrive disassembly 18:31:47 does that count? 18:32:14 Every instruction set has its own assembly 18:32:33 yeah i know 18:32:46 x86 is incomprehensable except for what looks like 68k 18:32:48 lol 18:32:54 c++ is mostly c with the idea of new to crate something that stays as long as refernced and addref to add additional refernces as far as I know 18:33:09 and memory shit 18:33:20 in str8 c you have to manage memory yourself 18:33:47 68k assembly has a cool way of telling the addressing modes. On x86 you have at least three different syntaxes that are common and on all of them the addressing modes are often very vague 18:34:07 that is what i mean c++ is so pwople who have no clue how to manage memroy can write programs that son;t leak like a sieve 18:34:34 .net teaches people to expect it and tout it as a feature 18:34:39 or did for most of its run 18:34:40 lol 18:34:51 but encourages people who really don't know how to program to attempt to do so 18:35:16 every .net thing I wrote fuckin leaked even simple bs like a tray thing that pings a site every five minutes and loops a wav file if it can't 18:35:38 just sit there idling eating bytes of ram 18:35:59 after a few hours it eat some megs after a few days it at several hundred megs 18:37:17 I'm not sure but it seems that the rust's equivalent of "crashing"/segfaulting is that it starts eating up memory like crazy and finally the OOM handler kills the program 18:37:40 I very much prefer segfaults over that 18:38:28 well we all fucked around and didn't help stop rust when we had the chance, we are stuck with it. 18:39:28 might as well learn to manage and control it so it doesn't manage and control us 18:39:38 ContributorTobin: btw you asked about the xref wanted to thank you for keeping the ghostbusters reference alive 18:40:13 ContributorTobin: Diversity is generally good in computing, and also in programming languages. Too bad that rustaceans actually seem to be against diversity, they want everyone to use only their thing 18:40:24 Diversity is good for freedom 18:40:57 Sompi: you must be a democrat 18:41:11 I don't live in US 18:41:13 depends on his definition of diversity doesn't it WG9s 18:42:06 I meant technological diversity, not ethnical diversity. Ethnical diversity is just a neutral thing, not a good and not a bad thing either. 18:42:18 are you filling a need or a quota, that is what matters to me 18:42:19 I know but republicans seem to think Either you are a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) or you should go back to where you came from 18:43:52 you might not be familiar with the WASP term was somthing form back in the 1960's that we thought we had ridden ourselves of 18:46:33 now they call themselvs christian fundamentalists 18:47:19 well the world sucks too much for there to be a christan god.. that old testiment fucker tho.. not so sure about him. 18:48:11 Corrupted demiurge! 18:48:12 the new testamant at least had this idea that you should lobe your enemies. strange as it ws then and now 18:48:26 love not lobe 18:48:50 yeah and the ones who are loudest about inclusion and diversity will find every single thing about you to reject you out of hand 18:48:56 same shit 18:49:07 humanity keeps making the same damned mistakes 18:49:51 well you also get the NIMBY thing i love those others but Not In My Back Yard 18:49:56 I remember when George W. Bush talked some crazy stuff about the axle of evil and wanted to bomb the whole middle east, and back then democrats were anti-war. How things have changed... 18:50:54 but was a different war now i don;t see why wee are supporting Isreal. 18:51:58 i dunno but it sure feels we skewed into some tanget that keeps getting worse and we keep surviving it 18:52:30 like this today is not the world anyone was calling for 18:52:46 anyone outside a power structure with wide sweeping reach anyway 18:52:47 Gworce W BUsh wanted to go in and finsih what he thought his father left undone. Issue is, go figure, Dadham Hussein was actually the one keeping stbiity in the regieon. There never were any weapons of mass destruction, but he insisted he had them and that is what kept his neighbors form making war. 18:53:31 Well W also taught us the internet is a series of tubes 18:53:41 Now democrats want to bomb half of Ukraine to drive Russia away from there 18:55:11 I stopped paying attention.. We may get nuked at any time and there is a chance it will be from our own government.. so.. that doesn't consern me because unless we get nuked I still have to deal with things as they are atm 18:55:23 also the idea he was hacking off body parts of citizens. those stories is what kept the factions form in Iraq from fighting against each others. He ruled with an iron had and feared by his citizens and neighboring countries, but it worked. 18:56:32 not saying he was a great guy or that i thought his methods were the greatest. but they seemed to work to keep peace until we came along 18:57:01 War propaganda is easier to identify afterwards 18:57:12 we could have launched a tactical nuke at his palace during some speech and it would have been less casualties over all 18:57:56 Today's news are tomorrow's war propaganda... 18:58:12 but oddly he kept peace in the region and once we got rid of him look what happened. 18:58:28 WG9s: Same happened with Gaddafi 18:59:14 And all those refugees come to EU & Russia, destabilizing and weakening them 18:59:18 has it occured to you that while the democrats WANT war they SUCK at war but if they START MORE WAR and loose then they instantly can turn back around against the republicans because we DO know the republicals love war it makes them money with military industral complexes and the like 18:59:23 and if that happens 18:59:25 And I think it is also part of USA's plan 18:59:32 the democrats can instantly switch back to anti-war 18:59:38 and no one will ever call it out 18:59:48 it's actually quite amazing objectively speaking 19:01:21 it is the republicans wo are pro was they thing putin should be able to take over territory using his miltary force. you can;t get much more pro war than that 19:01:58 frg_Away looks at the backlog and then decides its just not worth it lol 19:02:16 I am out of the loop till at least tomorrow and just ocassionally reading stuff. 19:02:41 we are managing a non-heated politcal discussion that somehow happened. 19:02:42 lol 19:02:54 I DIDN'T DO IT lol 19:03:44 ContributorTobin: you wer the one to blame democtrats 19:06:12 Anyone wanting non sse2 or old i586 support today should see a shink :) 99% of todays websites will crawl on these old systems. Core2Duo is borderline only. WASTE OF TIME AND RESOURCES. Pick and old version and use it if you must. 19:06:40 ContributorTobin: is being ignored by me 19:07:53 frg_Away: Actually Pentium III has about the same count of instructions per cycles as Core 2 has 19:09:08 I don't know how it compares to those modern ARM single-board computers. At least the first and second version of Raspberry Pi were a lot slower than Pentium III or even Pentium II. 19:11:56 The ARM world is weird. Modern smartphones should have a lot of computing power, but they are slow af in everything 19:11:59 off topic on 19:12:00 It is not my country but the republican party seems to act like a cult these days and anyone will suffer if Trump wins again. The Dems are not my cup of tea either and Biden is too old for another term. But not my country. Only one thing is iportant Putin must be stopped or we will see more misery down the line. 19:12:02 off topic off 19:12:05 Well I tried to tell you how to see if building for an i585 target would fix your issue but Tobin sjut me down so if you prefr to listen to him I am giving up also 19:12:57 frg_Away: if biden is too old so is trump so why do we have a choice betseen too men who are too old? 19:13:21 Modern Android does not even have proper multitasking. Only the app that has the visible "window" gets CPU time, everything else is paused. It multitasks like DOSSHELL from MS-DOS 5.0. 19:13:45 And still everything is slooooow. 19:14:55 Sompi. You need clock x64 4-8GB and 2 cores at a minimum No P3 is capabale of running a modern browser in anything but self torture mode. 19:15:20 frg_Away: I used it and it worked until rustc broke it 19:15:54 I even wrote a javascript game that draws things on a HTML5 canvas, and my 600 MHz Pentium III ran it just fine and the framerate was fine, it was playable 19:16:58 and still I think it is self torture. I amy using a used $60 T430s from about 2024 right now and it is great. SSD not included in the price but the rest is. 19:17:13 about 2014 not 2024 19:17:47 Pentium III has basically no difference to new CPUs with well-written programs 19:18:04 Sadly most JavaScript code is not so well-written 19:20:28 Sompi yes The P3 is not bad but it is completely obsolete. Only good if want to put together a system playing old games or very special hardware wih no later drivers. 19:20:58 I still use a T42 P3 for programming eproms. 19:21:19 The computer in question has a parallel port and I need it for printing 19:21:37 And sometimes I need to use the web browser but Seamonkey does not work on it anymore 19:27:57 I use a Color Laserjet 4550 from 2000 and was able to put a network card in. There are later i7 or Xeon 5600 boards with a parallel port available too and they are ok too. 19:30:33 And the computer also used to be able to do certain things so it should still be able to do them... 19:40:22 Sompi yeah probably nothing current will work on it. But that is as it is. To make it work you woulld need too much time and resources. 19:44:16 Don't listen to me.. no 19:44:48 damn it 19:48:09 Sompi: please listen to WG9s, I was out of line when I said that shit I said cutting him off. 19:49:15 fuckin politics.. just ruins everything. Have a nice day everyone sorry for the disruption. 19:50:11 I need to try cross-compiling Seamonkey on a Redhat Linux. Right now VirtualBox is not working on Slackware because the working kernel driver is not fully open source. If they don't fix it soon, I can always use QEMU or something 19:50:39 Or just install Redhat on some physical computer, but I don't have many 64-bit machines 19:53:56 Note to self: Say less things and make what is said more helpful... 19:54:20 It is also a problem if compiling the program requires a very specific type of computer :( 19:55:59 Sompi: i tried to help. you preferred to listen to Tobin. I susgest you ask him 19:57:01 Sompi: If you are gonna listen to me or whatever, I recommend a little less output and little more input from WG9s specifically. I am gonna do the same. 20:24:55 WG9s: I will try what you suggested 20:25:16 I mean what you suggested earlier 20:27:51 A friend also needed a Seamonkey or Firefox build without SSE2 23:00:37 0225|18:05:10 < Sompi> UEFI may be well documented and specified, but it is very badly designed <-- years dealing with BIOS and El Torito make me think the main worry would then be it being badly *implemented* 23:06:36 all you need to know about UEFI is 1) firmware OEMs are trash, and 2) Microsoft 23:10:28 Sompi: in the absence of proper advice on non-sse2 IA-32, I can only think of mentioning linux from scratch and gentoo - that is, check if their instructions or scripts have something for that 23:11:34 polticial off-topic: never been to the US, no right to vote, but it would be silly to say this matters only to the US, this has been spreading worldwide and I wonder how much of the current situation we can actually nail down to a few extremists in the US getting some more power. 23:12:52 Just like Stephen Falken, the rest of the world could try to stay away from this in an island, but would certainly not be shielded from Global Thermonuclear War. 23:17:24 https://tonsky.me/blog/js-bloat/ 23:18:08 gmail has 20 megabytes of javascript 23:18:18 I remember when it had zero 23:18:49 and worked better 23:20:50 I wonder how much does the Mastodon web UI have, it feels heavy (and isn't really well designed UI-wise, and also doesn't linkify news: anymore) 23:21:39 now, when both landlines and the 3G network was closed down, most places here have only 2G, so 256 kbps GPRS is the best connection possible 23:22:36 6 MB of javascript takes a minute to load even with a 1 Mbps connection 23:23:01 putititonelinewithoutspaces!thatsurewillmakeitgofaster! 23:23:05 Another common thing with that javascript crap that in many cases those scripts just somehow break when things load too slowly 23:23:31 So even when the scripts eventually load, they don't work 23:24:00 it tells something when it's obvious that not even the smallest possible deviations in the setup were considered in testing 23:24:19 say, when CloudFlare deploys code that fails on the browsers it is inteded for and launches a DDoS on CloudFlare 23:25:39 Discord has 21 MB of JavaScript 23:25:44 This has 34 kB: http://sininenankka.dy.fi:8082/index.htm 23:25:58 And works on Seamonkey 23:26:47 (the backend is written in C and a 266 MHz Pentium II is already very overkill for it) 23:28:02 Discord is... [censored]. Gave up on even giving it a try when to run it again I was presented with a new EULA, on top of bad usability. 23:29:27 blue duck, is that a reference to something? 23:30:00 most modern websites are literally unusable, not only with other browsers than chrome or firefox, but also with less than 10 Mbps internet connection 23:30:06 njsg: just a random thing 23:31:37 even facebook has ~always been like that - the scripts just "give up" when the page loads too slowly. it requires a relatively wide bandwidth connection to even be able to use the chat there 23:32:13 I have 25Mbps here, and even with that the wonders of modern Internet routing often ensures me a miserable load time experience for many websites, when I get sent through the slowest/most congested possible route 23:33:06 that chat thing that I made works just fine with a GPRS connection. I once tried to use the Discord phone spyware app with a GPRS connection and it could not receive and send the text messages in the chat, apparently there was too much overhead in them 23:35:50 You don't need GPRS to experience crap mobile service 23:36:17 here in Venezuela we have unusable 3G and unusable 4G, where sometimes even opening something as simple as a static page will stall harder than a 737 MAX 23:37:43 I've seen decent mobile data over 3G, but that may have been because I didn't wander too far from densely-populated areas, and I didn't try 20MB JS webapps 23:38:05 tomman: don't worry, the 737 MAX comes with an automatic system to help avoiding some stalls 23:38:42 Finland demolished its landline network and now 3G was also closed. Now we have 4G and 5G but theis coverage is very limited, and 2G that works almost everywhere but it is far too slow for today's needs. And also the 2G is going down in 2029 23:38:57 s/theis/their/ 23:40:28 elisa ended the cheaper "lower-bandwidth" data package for prepaids, I was expecting that to mean they at least had much more bandwidth to offer now? 23:40:37