11:06:34 <WG9s> ContributorTobin: I so yous your cross-reference.  way faster than my pervious method of using the Linux find command on my source repo
15:58:31 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: good then now that I can apply the patchqueue i can index it
15:59:08 <WG9s> yes what i landed was intended for central so I reverted it
15:59:32 <WG9s> so really no reason to rebuild unless you build with the inadvertant change
15:59:50 <WG9s> last real change was several days ago
15:59:53 <ContributorTobin> i mean i can index a patched up tree and put it up for searching
16:00:23 <ContributorTobin> I find this old piece of perl trash one of my most important tools
16:00:36 <WG9s> i inadbertnatly landed a change and reverted it is of you did not buid with the inadvertant change no reason ro rebuild
16:01:03 <ContributorTobin> also I am adjusting it so it WILL index mjs and sys.mjs files as javascript that sould make searching central better too
16:01:16 <ContributorTobin> ah
16:01:20 <ContributorTobin> good to know
16:01:42 <ContributorTobin> that's some good coordination there WG9s :)
16:02:06 <ContributorTobin> not sarcastic i am serious it is nice to know when unexpected things are up without just.. finding out
16:02:50 <WG9s> so you are indexing central also?  i have been using searchfox for that
16:03:11 <ContributorTobin> yeah I ran into an issue that yet again delayed my restoration of ALL THE TREES(tm)
16:03:42 <ContributorTobin> but back on track and since I am adding central back and all the older trees i can like weekly wise or w/e rerun the patch queue and regen xref
16:03:50 <ContributorTobin> i think it may be helpful
16:03:52 <ContributorTobin> would be to me
16:04:36 <ContributorTobin> 102?!
16:04:43 <ContributorTobin> where the hell did 115 go?
16:04:49 <ContributorTobin> errrrg
16:05:17 <WG9s> problem i have with comm-central is since seamonkey  can;t run well enought to get a owrking UI sometimes hard to test patches.  and poweres that be tell me just to make sure it builds and don;t try to get tye UI working.
16:05:40 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: I will solve THAT problem
16:06:07 <WG9s> they realy are onl interested in backporting security fixes to 2.53 and dont give a shit it central actaully works
16:06:41 <WG9s> so if i keep it building they feel easier to backport security fixes
16:07:18 <ContributorTobin> with this reconstruction "component" I am working on.. using code I am investigating and developing for my xre example application.. I can provide suite with an ALT ui that works enough to access other windows and start devtools.. THEN what needs to happen next i would imagine would be to get glue and content handler working for browser .. next ifdef mailnews and composer off and start getting navigator working.. and in five
16:07:18 <ContributorTobin> years maybe we can start the real task of modernizing the codebase
16:08:03 <ContributorTobin> all I need to do is get devtools working in my example app, I already have e10s going minimally
16:08:56 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: the reason there is no main window is because glue doesn't run and glue is what spawns it if no other code spawns anything
16:08:59 <WG9s> big reason for not going forward is getting webextensions to work but tring to keep leagcy extensions working
16:09:29 <WG9s> I know and I had a lst of things to backport to fix and was told to stand down on that effort
16:09:30 <ContributorTobin> I actually got navigator.xhtml to spawn. it was just a few toolbar lines and nothing else but i saw it on my screen with my eyeballs
16:10:27 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: it may not may not be the PRIMARY destiny but it is AMONG the components of my destiny at least to keep some form of netscape alive
16:10:41 <ContributorTobin> don't question it, it doesn't do any good lol
16:12:23 <WG9s> ContributorTobin: well you sometimes do same as i do.  an I am right and you are worng attitude rater than a we seem to diagree here lets talk about it and see if we can reach a compromise
16:12:38 <WG9s> just sayin'
16:12:47 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: No i know and I am not even sure the majority of seamonkey users would accept it or if this tinkering can ever reach the famed high level of development and use with cardnal gram meters and nofer trunions and the like.. but I tell you the new SeaMonkey Encabulator will be big!
16:12:52 <ContributorTobin> ... what was I saying?
16:14:00 <WG9s> no just in the past! just saing butting heads uis not usually the best approach.  kind of why I am banned from bugzilla
16:17:05 <ContributorTobin> Well I believe tinkering on central will help backporting and at least to me educational never the less
16:17:22 <ContributorTobin> but it would be nice to see patches in produced versions too
16:18:39 <ContributorTobin> There are likely dozens and dozens of tiny simple things that need done in 2.53 in just suite/ its self
16:18:57 <ContributorTobin> that wouldn't affect the patchqueue
16:19:30 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: I think I have a grasp on BASIC fluent l10n tho
16:20:09 <ContributorTobin> the part that isn't complicated as hell and a pseudo scripting language
16:20:42 <WG9s> good to have someone on board who has things to contribute areas that our current crew is lacking in.
16:21:39 <WG9s> like I said if we all have the same point of view and talents ehn we only need one contributor the point of having a team is others have other points of view and other talents
16:21:49 <ContributorTobin> Like I told thunderbird, I should have been helping all along .. tangibly
16:22:33 <WG9s> oddly  I was one of the first Thunderbird contributors bak in the day
16:22:45 <ContributorTobin> not just screaming about what you should do but helping you do it
16:22:47 <WG9s> no one is left from that team
16:23:00 <WG9s> I am still around but not sorking on THunderbird
16:23:35 <WG9s> and i don;t think any of the others contribute to anything mozilla related anymore
16:24:29 <ContributorTobin> I dunno if it is my specific disillusionment with Interlink or just because some of their new ideas on their UX redesign are kinda neat and it sure gives a feeling like they considered what they are doing and ARE making an effort.. Even if it isn't perfect yet..
16:24:56 <ContributorTobin> it is not the same feeling I get from Firefox UX design
16:25:34 <ContributorTobin> jorge does betterbird
16:25:41 <WG9s>  good friend of mine is a UX engineer and I always thought Mozilla would have benefited from hiring her.
16:25:43 <ContributorTobin> standard8 is still mozilla
16:25:51 <ContributorTobin> but not really working on thunderbird anymore
16:26:43 <WG9s> but he was more suire than Thunderbird but was one of those suite people we thought was open to our suggestions for fixes
16:27:28 <ContributorTobin> emillio, standard8, jcranmer are around and were the first to.. i dunno acknolege my existance after what I would guess is figure out why the hell I was building an XRE app in their lobby so to speak
16:28:27 <ContributorTobin> WG9s: I did tell you i went to mozilla general and started building my XRE application live in-chat right?
16:28:49 <ContributorTobin> looking back maybe not the best ideas but.. i did it and it wasn't a disaster
16:28:50 <ContributorTobin> so
16:31:11 <WG9s> the poepl i think were responsible for TB were Scott McGreggor chief engineer on the project and kind of doing the UI stuff, Dave Mose was a mailnes engineer interested inthe project and really intersted in getting IMAP to work, Arvid doing the icons for the UI and me who just tested stuff especially to make sure that the IMAP suff actually worked with servers that compied with the standard....
16:31:12 <WG9s> ... the original mozilla crap only worked if the imap server was the one mozilla based their code to interact with.  completely ignoring the fact that there was an existing standard
16:31:45 <ContributorTobin> the 10-52 era of thunderbird was pretty crap all things considered
16:31:52 <ContributorTobin> they realllly mangled the mailnews ui
16:32:05 <ContributorTobin> stuff in various aborted states of transition
16:32:12 <ContributorTobin> Interlink was a fucking disaster to work on
16:32:14 <ContributorTobin> ui wise
16:32:43 <ContributorTobin> but today they are cleaning it all up even tho part of it is because it will bust soon but still cleaning up they are doing
16:33:30 <ContributorTobin> I dunno what it is about what they are doing specifically UX wise but they have my attention, that should say something .. to some anyway
16:34:28 <ContributorTobin> I didn't even know Mozilla had their own imap impl
16:34:32 <ContributorTobin> that wasn't standard
16:34:34 <WG9s> I posted about this before but mozilla came along and decided they did not want to support YB as a tier 1 supported project and gabe us working on it three choulces to pick for what the derection to proceed should be and we unamiaously picked one of the three and they came back and said tough shit you picked the worng one.
16:34:39 <ContributorTobin> i mean i shouldn't be surpised
16:35:21 <ContributorTobin> oh wow
16:36:46 <WG9s> well this resulted in Scorr leaviing and soon after his good friend Ben Goodger (chief engineer on Firefox) also leaving and Scott went to GOggle to become cief engineer on Chrome.  SO google chrome should have been a Mozilla project if they had not pissed up the Thunderbird team.
16:36:49 <ContributorTobin> I know how shunned seamonkey was
16:37:00 <ContributorTobin> but I don't have the full background on TB in early days
16:37:34 <ContributorTobin> google chrome as a mozilla project makes a fuck ton more sense
16:37:52 <ContributorTobin> for what the original goals for chrome were before it decided to become the web
16:37:57 <WG9s> I was one of those pissed becuase they tld us we had a vote and then told us the vote was a sham and they had already picked the direction
16:39:00 <WG9s> but this is who Google chrome got to be Ben was chief engineer at Mozilla on Firefox befre he quit over this issue
16:39:47 <ContributorTobin> well i hope my efforts broadly overall will result in a Mozilla that either embraces other people using their platform codebase and not just firefox web platform or simply shrugs and says sure ok, don't bust us or else
16:41:14 <ContributorTobin> and I would like to see more cooperation between projects in the wider mozillasphere
16:41:54 <ContributorTobin> above below beside or off on a tanget, there should NOT be all this hostility and hording of tech advancements
16:42:13 <ContributorTobin> WG9s:
16:43:21 <ContributorTobin> at this point, I think getting mozilla ok with other apps is more likely than healing the cracked mozillasphere
16:47:24 <WG9s> Yes the lost their way want to go bak to being at or near top as a borwser without understanding how they ot there.  back in the day when firefox first acme out it made it;s mark becuse pwople weary about the internet asked their friends who were IT guys and they were all UNIS/Link guys and recommented Firefox.  but since then Moailla has decided FIrfox on WIndows is all they care about.
16:48:24 <ContributorTobin> Firefox on Mac during the 4x era
16:48:38 <ContributorTobin> that was where all the UX stuff came out of
16:48:42 <ContributorTobin> mac users
16:48:54 <WG9s> perhaps
16:49:41 <ContributorTobin> thing is if thye had given us what was originally designed for 4.0 and not the watered down version
16:49:45 <WG9s> but really don;t care if wht they produce works on windows an think the sistros will fix their screwups so still no official build that works on all linux distrols
16:49:50 <ContributorTobin> everyone would have loved Firefox 4
16:50:17 <ContributorTobin> well no build can work on ALL linux distros
16:50:35 <ContributorTobin> best you can hope is general genericability by building on rhel/centos
16:50:45 <WG9s> firefox 4 was an odd thing.  only reason it worked on Linus was becasue of my patches
16:51:11 <ContributorTobin> so basically you enabled all this
16:51:12 <ContributorTobin> lol
16:51:25 <ContributorTobin> you're fault heh
16:51:31 <ContributorTobin> your*
16:51:42 <WG9s> the whole firefox button the new thing with firefox 4 only ever orked on any Linux distro was becuase of me
16:52:18 <ContributorTobin> yeah you really are the devil himself
16:52:34 <ContributorTobin> appmenu buttons are terrible lol
16:52:56 <ContributorTobin> why does a program need at best an XP start menu of their own?
16:53:19 <WG9s> I knw tried to make it work as inobtusively as possible but without that I think Linux would have been dropped as a supported platform.
16:54:20 <WG9s> was also an issue where it did not work on windows with multiple monitors.  I also fixed that.
16:55:03 <WG9s> worded even worse if the multiple moitors did not have the smae screen reolution
16:56:01 <WG9s> my feeling all along was this was a bug in the windows compolitor that Microsoft thought apps should deal with rather than the compositor should have taken care of
16:56:19 <ContributorTobin> likely
16:58:52 <WG9s> seemed in order to get autohiding of the takbar yo work applications needed to each reserve the bottom line of dots on each window to be notused by the app rather than the compositor should just tell the app that row of dots does not exist
16:59:33 <WG9s> so that if you positions the mouse in that row the task bar could auto unhide
17:00:43 <WG9s> was also a stupid assumption in the mozilla code that the taskbar was only in the pirmary window but nothing in the micorsft code prevented you form moving it to another window
17:02:31 <WG9s> they did reserve the botom row but only in the primay window
17:03:00 <WG9s> so that ausohide worked properly if the taskbar was in the primay window.
17:03:56 <WG9s> if you moved it to another window, not so much
17:07:42 <ContributorTobin> My first real crash course into the Mozilla build system that was virtually undocumented was updating the libvpx lib and to do that not only did I have to learn on a basic level how mozilla makefiles work but a primitive form of mozbuild (24) but i was backporting the build system changes from a much more developed mozbuild. I had to translate BACK part of it to makefiles
17:10:33 <ContributorTobin> I managed it tho, luckily there wasn't an api change and the glue didn't need adjusted else I'd be screwed as cpp crippled as I am
17:11:17 <WG9s> hmm seems to me i did something very simlar but not latest thing frg asked me to get lubdav1d to work with 2.53
17:12:20 <ContributorTobin> i do NOT lubdav1d
17:14:16 <ContributorTobin> I still don't understand why there is so much hardcode app to srcdir rather than the define MOZ_PHOENIX or whatever since allmakefiles went up in smoke that shouldn't hardly ever be needed save for local_includes and any test references
17:14:23 <WG9s> libdav1d
17:14:34 <ContributorTobin> i was making a joke with your typo lol
17:15:52 <ContributorTobin> if CONFIG['MOZ_PHOENIX']:
17:16:16 <ContributorTobin> rather than if CONFIG['MOZ_BUILD_APP'] == "browser":
17:16:48 <ContributorTobin> see what I mean WG9s
17:16:57 <ContributorTobin> I fully resolved this in UXP actually
17:17:01 <ContributorTobin> it was some work
17:17:46 <ContributorTobin> it it allowed MOZ_PHOENIX to mean Firefox-based and an additional MOZ_AUSTRALIS meant firefox 52 based and application defines for specifics
17:17:49 <ContributorTobin> it was a good system
17:18:14 <WG9s> I knew you were making a joke
17:21:27 <WG9s> i did tha someone posted a thing in a music related Facebook joke abut Ina gadda devita and i replied is that related at all to In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida?
17:22:42 <ContributorTobin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI
17:24:42 <WG9s> funny think was in a facebook goup where the topic was what was the first song you ever danced to!
17:25:06 <ContributorTobin> heh
17:45:28 <Sompi> Mozilla Developer Portal still does not work with Seamonkey
17:45:55 <ContributorTobin> is it supposed to?
17:46:03 <Sompi> I think so?
17:46:10 <tomman> MDN deeply drunk the Chromeisms kool-aid, sadly
17:46:38 <tomman> it's like GiggityHub, where every week it breaks in new and wonderful ways here
17:46:56 <ContributorTobin> I interchange shithub and gitshrub
17:47:01 <ContributorTobin> i like gitshrub better
17:47:03 <Sompi> Most websites don't work with Seamonkey anymore, and the problem is always some "illegal character" in some several hundred kilobytes long line of minified javascript
17:47:46 <tomman> Sompi: that's usually websites relying on fancy Chromeisms on whatever framework they use, and they are under this weird trend that frameworks must be updated weekly of things get "stale"
17:47:53 <Sompi> Usually all online javascript validators also detect errors on those scripts, but Chrome and Firefox somehow are completely ok with it
17:47:57 <ContributorTobin> Sompi: yep, and I know it is top on the mind of frg and others
17:48:18 <tomman> ha, even Javascript validators are having a hard time keeping up with the Joneses
17:48:56 <tomman> that says a lot on the sorry health of the JS ecosystem
17:49:06 <Sompi> But isn't Mozilla Developer Portal at least supposed to work with all browsers?
17:49:18 <tomman> "who cares if it isn't on the ECMAScript standards yet, if it works in Chrome it's enough"
17:49:36 <tomman> Sompi: and "all browsers" these days basically means Chrome and "latest Firefox", basicsally
17:49:53 <Sompi> Why React has an "error handler" that just removes all elements from the page and displays a blank page, without giving the user any feedback or information about the problem? Why does MDN even use JavaScript anyway, when the content is only static text?
17:50:24 <Sompi> MDN is supposed to be made by professionals that know what they are doing
17:50:55 <tomman> many frameworks faill in that way
17:50:59 <Sompi> It is literally made by the same people who develop browsers and document the current JavaScript
17:51:05 <tomman> it's the new equivalent of the BSOD
17:51:22 <tomman> thwere is nothing professional in modern JS
17:52:47 <Sompi> Many websites have already megabytes or even tens of megabytes minified javascript
17:53:15 <Sompi> If unminified and object names restored, it would probably be hundreds of megabytes
17:53:28 <Sompi> And they do literally nothing else than show static images and text
17:53:44 <tomman> even worse is that the rendering of static text and images these days is done... client side
17:53:46 <Sompi> And they have more code than any operating system kernel in the world
17:53:57 <tomman> so if you're using a unpopular browser, or a script blocker, you get... a blank page
17:54:09 <tomman> not even a fallback noscript version
17:54:48 <tomman> Combine that with the WSoD, and well, I guess the modern crop of webdevs don't even intend to have their websites read by humans anymore
17:55:29 <Sompi> Somehow the web development industry is full of people who don't know how to code, and don't know how a computer even works
17:55:46 <tomman> many don't even use computers anymore, but cellphones
17:55:50 <Sompi> They just write some crap and no-one even expects it to work properly, because the user can just refresh the page when something goes wrong
17:56:13 <Sompi> And those same people are completely hyped every time when some low-level API changes
17:56:17 <tomman> "we test in production!"
17:56:36 <Sompi> And they don't even write anything for those low-level APIs, to them those APIs are just some buzzwords
17:56:58 <tomman> Good example: BigInt
17:57:02 <Sompi> And peopple who actually write something to those APIs have to write something that actually works
17:57:07 <tomman> why websites now need BigInt!?
17:57:31 <Sompi> And it becomes difficult when the API changes suddenly and the code that Just Worked (tm) becomes stale
17:57:34 <Sompi> :(
18:31:03 <ContributorTobin> Sompi: Browser Parity is for whatwg members
18:31:07 <ContributorTobin> or did you forget
18:31:50 <ContributorTobin> tho by all rights, SeaMonkey IS a browser vendor and a largely independant one at that
18:32:15 <ContributorTobin> SeaMonkey should have as much say as Microsoft or Google or Opera who all use the same fuckin engine
18:32:37 <ContributorTobin> tho that does mean Pale Moon should too so I may have a few mixed feelings
18:32:42 <ContributorTobin> but none that get in the way
18:34:01 <ContributorTobin> of course that ALSO means Basilisk and djames, he called me the n-word after stealing my code from a private repo.. and that word was NOT netscape
18:38:09 <Sompi> First Google introduces "standards" and then they break it themselves
18:58:40 <Tobin> well we all want to see google's strangle hold on standards broken
18:58:45 <Tobin> and not just replaced with microsoft
18:59:26 <Tobin> So I say make 2.53 the best it can be and as possible and also don't shun modern mozilla just cause it doesn't have xul extensions
18:59:31 <Tobin> it's our best bet
18:59:41 <Tobin> not like KDE is gonna retake their engine and save us all
18:59:47 <Tobin> Sompi tomman WG9s