00:00:38 hi tomman 16:42:40 so i got this prompt in FF 115 ESR to "take a survey" 16:42:42 https://qsurvey.mozilla.com/s3/winmigration-us 16:42:44 afaik (but maybe not) i have all FF "crap" turned off. 16:42:45 so either i don't, or they bypass it, as they wish. 16:48:35 interesting questions as FF is trying to figure out just what "Mozilla" will become 17:35:32 good morning 17:38:18 i hope the best for mozilla really 17:42:57 it's faster than even a qtwebkit that's patched up to it's ass (falkon) which really isn't very different from chromium webkit nowadays... 17:44:08 Hitman_47: true 17:44:54 and at least mozilla technology has a bunch of crazy fucks who can pick it apart and make it do things .. chromium not so much 17:45:18 Hitman_47: We lost the browser war, this is now a war of the desktop and computers its self 17:45:25 browsers are JUST a component driver 17:46:17 You could call it the last great browser war but the stakes are beyond that 17:46:34 RedHat is going to use Mozilla Firefox with userChrome hacks to run their new web anaconda installer 17:47:03 RATHER than making a basic xre application with a browser element to use the tech but not the branded product in the core role of installer shell 17:47:25 Firefox the branded product as the core of everything is JUST AS BAD as chromium 17:47:29 but 17:47:38 not Mozilla in the older platform sense 17:48:37 Firefox is dead top priority important to Mozilla and I can't change that but I think even they aren't opposed just not able or willing to do much to facilitate it 17:49:02 especially considering NOW they are to all become AI obsessed idiots cause new leadership 17:49:03 so.. 17:49:09 that will take up much of their time 17:49:45 afaik the mozilla engine has been overhauled once already 17:50:10 in general tech shifts I count 2 and a half times 17:50:25 once when mozilla.org was formed of course giving rise to the core netscape tech 17:50:36 past communicator 4 i mean 17:51:20 oh okay indeed 17:51:31 then a half-change with xpfe to toolkit and another half change with quantium, and another half change with merging xul with xhtml and adding way more rust 17:51:35 lecture me more on that anaconda installer i had no idea it existed for 20 years 17:51:58 redhat linux's installer? 17:52:05 right now its mostly python based 17:52:14 but its backend is being rewritten to cpp 17:52:24 and will get redhat's cockpit as a webfrontend 17:52:48 and they will use userchrome to hide firefox ux and use firefox the branded product as a vital core system component 17:52:55 This is wrong imo 17:53:32 okay so switching to a web frontend cause it's trendy but instead of electron chromium they will be more reasonable and use mozilla but forked and with a stylesheet 17:53:36 and lazy as fuck when I the formerly always pissed off and continued social cripple has already basically done it in 3 days 17:53:55 heh 17:54:03 on modern mozilla 17:54:18 but still it's better than electron 17:54:27 well it isn't electron api based 17:54:30 it's true mozilla based 17:54:36 a real mozilla application 17:54:42 good 17:54:47 with its own nsGenericApp.cpp and everything 17:55:07 for executing stuff outside of it's sandbox thing 17:55:25 well e10s is now unavoidable 17:55:39 but know what e10s would be good for? a pwa/site specific browser runner and manager 17:55:52 that feature mozilla didn't hardly bother with 17:56:40 Consider Hitman_47 if i created such a pwa/generic ssb runner that could take the spot for a lot of people who have to do the second browser dance.. and what are they using a second browser for? webapps 17:56:59 true 17:57:09 I have a marketable product right here using the most basic mozilla tech and no one will make it except me even tho I laid it out in a public channel 17:57:13 what a world we live in huh 17:58:00 it is indeed but wishing you the best of luck man 17:58:06 Then again if this world was right the suite would still be mozfunded and not shunned for a decade 17:58:27 I am gonna help anyone I can.. I am done playing favorites 17:58:30 and xul would have stayed :) 17:58:41 me too kinda 17:58:50 XUL and core netscape tech is great .. for those who know what it is.. 17:58:59 that has always been the issue 17:59:02 my self interests have reduced in a lot of fields 17:59:31 i understand why oldschool software is more complicated so xul wasn't catchy 17:59:50 at uxp or sm's level XUL is almost trivial 17:59:58 that doesn't factor in 18:00:19 what is more complicated is modern mozilla 18:00:35 with e10s and xul but not xul but only sometimes xul but not for much longer 18:00:47 and they changed the l10n strings too 18:01:02 the base form has many advantages but the sugar confuses the hell out of me 18:01:22 it's basically stringbundles hacked into dom shit to take over for dtd .. that part is great.. 18:01:41 i have unfortunately no idea about that 18:01:42 the be smart and be a psudo programming language parts not so much least on the learning how it does it 18:01:59 heh 18:01:59 yeah neither did I until a few days ago 18:03:14 in general i kinda like even js but man the assembled webapp crap and the programs written in e.g. rust are an eye sore 18:03:38 go is dumbed down python so i'm ok with it 18:04:12 except for google sticking it's nose in compilers instead of justmarketing it 18:04:42 I am also tinkering with suite on comm-central.. don't expect much of anything except experience building from the perspective of familar code but hell I dunno. I mean I think the suite could be fixed up tho it would loose some stuff but also gain some stuff and be somewhat different but I think it could be styled to be largely the same for the most clashy bits.. but that is way way way way more work on tech I am just barely getting a 18:04:43 grasp back on in this new state so no magic SM 128 i am afraid but improvements DO help in backporting to a degree. 18:05:48 And I really wanna do a UX spit and polish pass on the entirety of seamonkey 2.53 18:06:08 it desperately needs it 18:06:48 best of wishes man 18:06:53 i love seamonkey 18:07:07 textboxes and searchboxes not the same height, padding in places, similar designed UIs where buttons in same locations and have same functions get flipped that sort of crap 18:07:32 you know.. take a rag and give it a good wipe down and touch up 18:08:30 Spawn every window study them, make it look... 18:08:32 GOOD 18:08:49 does the gtk3 switch make this easier or the same? 18:08:58 and yeah hehe 18:09:02 that thing developers used to have time for when releases didn't need to be out every 2-3 days 18:09:55 i remember this with some old proprietary programs back in the day 18:10:23 i dunno how much GTK3 affects SeaMonkey's platform yet but a fully xul platform tends to do better since it overrides styling or accomidates gtk styling.. Firefox is mostly relying on GTK styling and matching it when it emulates it 18:10:43 but remember html even xhtml is more freeform than xul design is 18:10:51 and xhtml can have tags namespaced 18:11:28 so xul can be targeted and html otherwise which follows web rules not xul rules so deviations COULD be easier actually 18:11:50 got it 18:12:00 but it all has pros and cons 18:13:49 it can certainly be worth waiting for a while longer 18:13:57 if we had some way to do embedding in mozilla one COULD hotwire modern mozilla into a xul application 18:14:17 tho u'd likely have to feed it a webextension and orchastrate that shit 18:14:30 but it isn't IMpossibe 18:15:52 it would probably look better to the eyes than patching a userChrome.css 18:16:13 but hey at least some themes are made for librewolf in the meantime with it 18:16:27 i use half that half seamonkey 18:18:19 (also used falkon quite a bit but qtwebkit has too weird of a useragent now and since switching to qt6webkit it's gotten heavy) 19:06:23 It is a great shame that qtwebkit is long dead 19:06:31 and qtwebengine is just a chrome wrapper 19:06:35 .. fake name 19:06:39 webengine.. 19:06:46 what an implication 19:06:48 regardless 19:06:49 ye 19:06:59 even worse 19:07:13 my concept is XULvolution has many forms including evolving past xul 19:07:19 webdevs are in a new trend of "let's ban native applications", and of course the only allowed development platform is Chrome. 19:07:34 tomman: new? 19:07:40 you mean the past decade? 19:07:46 OK, actually increasing 19:07:58 actually there is pushback 19:08:09 it just is all designed like the web 19:08:11 but these days you now see idiots writing on their Xitters and Mastodumbs about "native is a mistake, death to native" 19:08:12 but regardless 19:08:20 "native == unsafe" 19:08:33 so native peoples are unsafe got it 19:09:01 Rust! All! The! Things! (but compile them to WASM, of course!) 19:11:46 tomman: rust will be an important language but it won't take over .. already there is a lot of undercurrent opposing web everything and seek a more balanced approch and it is STARTING albeit slowly to creep back into the mainstream but those who advocated for the general insnaity in the first place are continuing to double and triple down .. and the feel i get these days is the feeling that those who created the half-waste of time this 19:11:46 past decade has been are gonna be put on rails and a lot of people are gonna be playing fixup as well as figuring out how to operate in the mess we are in now 19:12:07 I just refuse to use fanboy-fueled languages 19:12:18 and Rust has become basically a religion these days 19:12:46 tomman: is the Rust religion any less valid than our xul religion? 19:12:59 they may think so but should we? 19:14:18 tomman: abandon xul then 19:14:39 seamonkey is LITERALLY here to try and continue the suite in the fanboy languages of yesterday 19:14:50 plus the new fanboy languages 19:14:54 well, at least the only fanboys of XUL are us, and we're harmless :D 19:14:58 but Rust... ugh 19:15:12 I am the keeper of the soul of The Beast, stick with me and I will not lead you astray. 19:15:30 :P 19:15:47 that sounded a lot like the visual novel i'm playing right now :D 19:15:54 nice 19:16:14 xul is not a bad language it is the implemenyation in how add-ons worked that was brain damaged. the way cul add-ons in particular and add-ons in general allowed the add-on to change anythingin the code instead of having a sell defined api for how to change things. 19:16:55 add-ons could alter anything defined in the source as a global 19:17:45 WG9s: I partly agree with you but only in so extensions that impact the web in todays terms should not be the application modification level of xul extensions.. That should be handled differently from something like a webextension which is today's conception secure priv isolated and web service focused 19:18:04 we should not treat mozilla style extensions as trivial 19:18:05 BUT 19:18:27 the whole point of them IS that deep same level same tech same means modification of the targetApplication 19:18:36 the whole idea of webextensions is that they are supposed to be browser agnostic, but that does not appear to be the case at all 19:18:56 it should simply not be regarded nor called an extension because that defintion has changed 19:19:19 I would propose the term Modification or Mod 19:19:24 and mods have risks 19:19:27 and power 19:19:30 and responsiablity 19:19:39 extensions today are not mods 19:19:42 "browser agnostic", where "agnostic" means "Google" 19:19:49 and still have user-agent sniffing. I think should be an api to return we extension version supported by the browsr adn then depend on that rather than ua sniffing 19:20:12 so by doing that one could re-introduce that level of extensiablity and customization AND not have to support shit cause it's a mod modifications have to target what they modify properly 19:20:24 well google could have been mozilla had they not pissed off their chief engineer. 19:20:26 I just fixed the fuckin add-ons ecosystem, give me the netscape trademark already 19:20:29 lol 19:20:58 treat xul extensions like video game mods 19:21:02 that's the ticket 19:21:09 puts it in a more approerate context 19:21:16 WG9s: whatcha think? 19:21:26 I was never that thrilled with netsapce. they were the ones who invented forcing ads on us 19:23:50 the guy who invented mozaoc and had a browser that was government grant funded and therefore could not promote ads. took the code to start netscape and ads were born. 19:24:23 the internet came out of government funding 19:25:00 I honestly think my over all goal is to eliminate the concept of a web.. browser 19:25:38 That is the direction I am personally heading 19:25:49 elimination of the web browser 19:26:03 and the need for a document navigator to do the modern web hoopla 19:26:38 I want to free navigators from having to be webapp browsers. 19:26:46 yes this all came out of darpa 19:26:48 and also balance web and desktop 19:27:05 well odd combination of darpa and ham radio operators 19:27:55 I want to bring webapps to the desktop and also push native programs so that both MUST sidebyside compete and be the best they can be.. 19:29:20 inside a web browser with an address bar and back and forward buttons and a personal toolbar and some paltry form of extensions.. webapps don't HAVE to be any good they can rely on the browser to override its deficncies even if it is lazing out in favor of reload or clear your cookies.. cause seems like they built that flaw into the libs rather than avoiding it. 19:29:27 on the desktop 19:29:33 against other programs 19:29:46 webapps must compete with desktop 19:30:00 browser is just an apple thing apple had on macs with network access 19:30:02 rather than desktop competing with whatever is inside a desktop program 19:30:13 i forget waht they called it 19:30:34 well i use the term browser to define what browsers became post-2008ish 19:30:46 and navigator for the stuff before 19:31:16 where the main focus was rendering .. html documents with some images and minor styling and a little event driven js to make it all nifty 19:31:37 world wide web, navigator, netscape.. openweb, browser, chrome 19:32:08 Firefox was a navigator now it is a browser 19:32:24 but not an App Platform™ 19:32:37 Firefox is not a platform 19:32:40 funny 19:32:47 but Firefox OS somehow is :D 19:32:49 Moonchild said the same thing about Pale Moon in 2013 19:32:56 tomman: heh 19:33:09 ironically that one still lives as the trainwreck of KaiOS 19:33:19 mozilla is helping kaios out 19:33:23 which SOMEHOW survives in 2024 despite being a dumpsterfire 19:33:33 KaiOS 3.0 was a brutal transition 19:33:34 so does Pale Moon 19:33:39 "time to rewrite your applications, again!" 19:33:58 red mozilla started many dumpster fires 19:34:03 that's where they lost Meta, so KaiOS no longer has its flagship 3rd-party application shipping on every phone, WhatsCrapp 19:34:14 Green Mozilla will put some of em out but because he is a badass he will let others burn 19:34:35 I miss green mozilla 19:34:39 he was a cool dude 19:35:17 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Mozilla_statue%2C_AOL_Campus%2C_December_2014.jpg 19:35:20 THIS FUCKER 19:36:22 tomman: http://home.mcom.com/ 19:36:41 we need to rescue that lizard 19:36:48 I like they capped the web server to roughly 5kb/s 19:37:15 bless JWZ 19:37:17 he did that 19:37:39 period-accurate performance is his motto 19:38:42 Netscape is a network navigator that allows retrieval and viewing of world wide web multimedia documents. 19:38:50 SEE 19:38:56 NAVIGATOR 19:38:58 WORLD WIDE WEB 19:39:03 MULTIMEDIA DOCUMENTS 19:39:14 lol 19:39:25 "multi-media" 19:39:26 Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems 19:39:37 no it is multimedia 19:39:39 on that page 19:39:47 http://home.mcom.com/home/faq_docs/faq_client.html 19:47:21 "Display and interaction with documents as they load" 19:47:23 how novel 19:47:31 and yet we have regressed on that 19:47:57 now if the 30MB dogpile of toxic JS framework hellstew doesn't load (or fails to run because you're not using an Approved Web Browser AKA CHROME), then you get nothing 19:48:12 "Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems" 19:48:26 nowadays every webdev assumes you have symmetric unlimited gigabit fiber with negative latency 19:49:20 "Multiple simultaneous interruptible network loads of text and images" 19:49:38 can't really do that anymore with most JS-driven sites :/ 19:49:56 "Multiple independent windows" 19:50:01 do cellphones even have windows!? 19:50:23 android has tiling windows now 19:50:34 works like early sidebyside metro 20:41:01 they may have added rust - but, they removed the trust !