00:00:38 <Tobin> hi tomman
16:42:40 <therube> so i got this prompt in FF 115 ESR to "take a survey"
16:42:42 <therube> https://qsurvey.mozilla.com/s3/winmigration-us
16:42:44 <therube> afaik (but maybe not) i have all FF "crap" turned off.
16:42:45 <therube> so either i don't, or they bypass it, as they wish.
16:48:35 <therube> interesting questions as FF is trying to figure out just what "Mozilla" will become
17:35:32 <Tobin> good morning
17:38:18 <Hitman_47> i hope the best for mozilla really
17:42:57 <Hitman_47> it's faster than even a qtwebkit that's patched up to it's ass (falkon) which really isn't very different from chromium webkit nowadays...
17:44:08 <Tobin> Hitman_47: true
17:44:54 <Tobin> and at least mozilla technology has a bunch of crazy fucks who can pick it apart and make it do things .. chromium not so much
17:45:18 <Tobin> Hitman_47: We lost the browser war, this is now a war of the desktop and computers its self
17:45:25 <Tobin> browsers are JUST a component driver
17:46:17 <Tobin> You could call it the last great browser war but the stakes are beyond that
17:46:34 <Tobin> RedHat is going to use Mozilla Firefox with userChrome hacks to run their new web anaconda installer
17:47:03 <Tobin> RATHER than making a basic xre application with a browser element to use the tech but not the branded product in the core role of installer shell
17:47:25 <Tobin> Firefox the branded product as the core of everything is JUST AS BAD as chromium
17:47:29 <Tobin> but
17:47:38 <Tobin> not Mozilla in the older platform sense
17:48:37 <Tobin> Firefox is dead top priority important to Mozilla and I can't change that but I think even they aren't opposed just not able or willing to do much to facilitate it
17:49:02 <Tobin> especially considering NOW they are to all become AI obsessed idiots cause new leadership
17:49:03 <Tobin> so..
17:49:09 <Tobin> that will take up much of their time
17:49:45 <Hitman_47> afaik the mozilla engine has been overhauled once already
17:50:10 <Tobin> in general tech shifts I count 2 and a half times
17:50:25 <Tobin> once when mozilla.org was formed of course giving rise to the core netscape tech
17:50:36 <Tobin> past communicator 4 i mean
17:51:20 <Hitman_47> oh okay indeed
17:51:31 <Tobin> then a half-change with xpfe to toolkit and another half change with quantium, and another half change with merging xul with xhtml and adding way more rust
17:51:35 <Hitman_47> lecture me more on that anaconda installer i had no idea it existed for 20 years
17:51:58 <Tobin> redhat linux's installer?
17:52:05 <Tobin> right now its mostly python based
17:52:14 <Tobin> but its backend is being rewritten to cpp
17:52:24 <Tobin> and will get redhat's cockpit as a webfrontend
17:52:48 <Tobin> and they will use userchrome to hide firefox ux and use firefox the branded product as a vital core system component
17:52:55 <Tobin> This is wrong imo
17:53:32 <Hitman_47> okay so switching to a web frontend cause it's trendy but instead of electron chromium they will be more reasonable and use mozilla but forked and with a stylesheet
17:53:36 <Tobin> and lazy as fuck when I the formerly always pissed off and continued social cripple has already basically done it in 3 days
17:53:55 <Hitman_47> heh
17:54:03 <Tobin> on modern mozilla
17:54:18 <Hitman_47> but still it's better than electron
17:54:27 <Tobin> well it isn't electron api based
17:54:30 <Tobin> it's true mozilla based
17:54:36 <Tobin> a real mozilla application
17:54:42 <Hitman_47> good
17:54:47 <Tobin> with its own nsGenericApp.cpp and everything
17:55:07 <Hitman_47> for executing stuff outside of it's sandbox thing
17:55:25 <Tobin> well e10s is now unavoidable
17:55:39 <Tobin> but know what e10s would be good for? a pwa/site specific browser runner and manager
17:55:52 <Tobin> that feature mozilla didn't hardly bother with
17:56:40 <Tobin> Consider Hitman_47 if i created such a pwa/generic ssb runner that could take the spot for a lot of people who have to do the second browser dance.. and what are they using a second browser for? webapps
17:56:59 <Hitman_47> true
17:57:09 <Tobin> I have a marketable product right here using the most basic mozilla tech and no one will make it except me even tho I laid it out in a public channel
17:57:13 <Tobin> what a world we live in huh
17:58:00 <Hitman_47> it is indeed but wishing you the best of luck man
17:58:06 <Tobin> Then again if this world was right the suite would still be mozfunded and not shunned for a decade
17:58:27 <Tobin> I am gonna help anyone I can.. I am done playing favorites
17:58:30 <Hitman_47> and xul would have stayed :)
17:58:41 <Hitman_47> me too kinda
17:58:50 <Tobin> XUL and core netscape tech is great .. for those who know what it is..
17:58:59 <Tobin> that has always been the issue
17:59:02 <Hitman_47> my self interests have reduced in a lot of fields
17:59:31 <Hitman_47> i understand why oldschool software is more complicated so xul wasn't catchy
17:59:50 <Tobin> at uxp or sm's level XUL is almost trivial
17:59:58 <Tobin> that doesn't factor in
18:00:19 <Tobin> what is more complicated is modern mozilla
18:00:35 <Tobin> with e10s and xul but not xul but only sometimes xul but not for much longer
18:00:47 <Tobin> and they changed the l10n strings too
18:01:02 <Tobin> the base form has many advantages but the sugar confuses the hell out of me
18:01:22 <Tobin> it's basically stringbundles hacked into dom shit to take over for dtd .. that part is great..
18:01:41 <Hitman_47> i have unfortunately no idea about that
18:01:42 <Tobin> the be smart and be a psudo programming language parts not so much least on the learning how it does it
18:01:59 <Hitman_47> heh
18:01:59 <Tobin> yeah neither did I until a few days ago
18:03:14 <Hitman_47> in general i kinda like even js but man the assembled webapp crap and the programs written in e.g. rust are an eye sore
18:03:38 <Hitman_47> go is dumbed down python so i'm ok with it
18:04:12 <Hitman_47> except for google sticking it's nose in compilers instead of justmarketing it
18:04:42 <Tobin> I am also tinkering with suite on comm-central.. don't expect much of anything except experience building from the perspective of familar code but hell I dunno. I mean I think the suite could be fixed up tho it would loose some stuff but also gain some stuff and be somewhat different but I think it could be styled to be largely the same for the most clashy bits.. but that is way way way way more work on tech I am just barely getting a
18:04:43 <Tobin> grasp back on in this new state so no magic SM 128 i am afraid but improvements DO help in backporting to a degree.
18:05:48 <Tobin> And I really wanna do a UX spit and polish pass on the entirety of seamonkey 2.53
18:06:08 <Tobin> it desperately needs it
18:06:48 <Hitman_47> best of wishes man
18:06:53 <Hitman_47> i love seamonkey
18:07:07 <Tobin> textboxes and searchboxes not the same height, padding in places, similar designed UIs where buttons in same locations and have same functions get flipped that sort of crap
18:07:32 <Tobin> you know.. take a rag and give it a good wipe down and touch up
18:08:30 <Tobin> Spawn every window study them, make it look...
18:08:32 <Tobin> GOOD
18:08:49 <Hitman_47> does the gtk3 switch make this easier or the same?
18:08:58 <Hitman_47> and yeah hehe
18:09:02 <Tobin> that thing developers used to have time for when releases didn't need to be out every 2-3 days
18:09:55 <Hitman_47> i remember this with some old proprietary programs back in the day
18:10:23 <Tobin> i dunno how much GTK3 affects SeaMonkey's platform yet but a fully xul platform tends to do better since it overrides styling or accomidates gtk styling.. Firefox is mostly relying on GTK styling and matching it when it emulates it
18:10:43 <Tobin> but remember html even xhtml is more freeform than xul design is
18:10:51 <Tobin> and xhtml can have tags namespaced
18:11:28 <Tobin> so xul can be targeted and html otherwise which follows web rules not xul rules so deviations COULD be easier actually
18:11:50 <Hitman_47> got it
18:12:00 <Tobin> but it all has pros and cons
18:13:49 <Hitman_47> it can certainly be worth waiting for a while longer
18:13:57 <Tobin> if we had some way to do embedding in mozilla one COULD hotwire modern mozilla into a xul application
18:14:17 <Tobin> tho u'd likely have to feed it a webextension and orchastrate that shit
18:14:30 <Tobin> but it isn't IMpossibe
18:15:52 <Hitman_47> it would probably look better to the eyes than patching a userChrome.css
18:16:13 <Hitman_47> but hey at least some themes are made for librewolf in the meantime with it
18:16:27 <Hitman_47> i use half that half seamonkey
18:18:19 <Hitman_47> (also used falkon quite a bit but qtwebkit has too weird of a useragent now and since switching to qt6webkit it's gotten heavy)
19:06:23 <Tobin> It is a great shame that qtwebkit is long dead
19:06:31 <Tobin> and qtwebengine is just a chrome wrapper
19:06:35 <Tobin> .. fake name
19:06:39 <Tobin> webengine..
19:06:46 <Tobin> what an implication
19:06:48 <Tobin> regardless
19:06:49 <Tobin> ye
19:06:59 <tomman> even worse
19:07:13 <Tobin> my concept is XULvolution has many forms including evolving past xul
19:07:19 <tomman> webdevs are in a new trend of "let's ban native applications", and of course the only allowed development platform is Chrome.
19:07:34 <Tobin> tomman: new?
19:07:40 <Tobin> you mean the past decade?
19:07:46 <tomman> OK, actually increasing
19:07:58 <Tobin> actually there is pushback
19:08:09 <Tobin> it just is all designed like the web
19:08:11 <tomman> but these days you now see idiots writing on their Xitters and Mastodumbs about "native is a mistake, death to native"
19:08:12 <Tobin> but regardless
19:08:20 <tomman> "native == unsafe"
19:08:33 <Tobin> so native peoples are unsafe got it
19:09:01 <tomman> Rust! All! The! Things! (but compile them to WASM, of course!)
19:11:46 <Tobin> tomman: rust will be an important language but it won't take over .. already there is a lot of undercurrent opposing web everything and seek a more balanced approch and it is STARTING albeit slowly to creep back into the mainstream but those who advocated for the general insnaity in the first place are continuing to double and triple down .. and the feel i get these days is the feeling that those who created the half-waste of time this
19:11:46 <Tobin> past decade has been are gonna be put on rails and a lot of people are gonna be playing fixup as well as figuring out how to operate in the mess we are in now
19:12:07 <tomman> I just refuse to use fanboy-fueled languages
19:12:18 <tomman> and Rust has become basically a religion these days
19:12:46 <Tobin> tomman: is the Rust religion any less valid than our xul religion?
19:12:59 <Tobin> they may think so but should we?
19:14:18 <Tobin> tomman: abandon xul then
19:14:39 <Tobin> seamonkey is LITERALLY here to try and continue the suite in the fanboy languages of yesterday
19:14:50 <Tobin> plus the new fanboy languages
19:14:54 <tomman> well, at least the only fanboys of XUL are us, and we're harmless :D
19:14:58 <tomman> but Rust... ugh
19:15:12 <Tobin> I am the keeper of the soul of The Beast, stick with me and I will not lead you astray.
19:15:30 <Tobin> :P
19:15:47 <tomman> that sounded a lot like the visual novel i'm playing right now :D
19:15:54 <Tobin> nice
19:16:14 <WG9s> xul is not a bad language it is the implemenyation in how add-ons worked that was brain damaged.  the way cul add-ons in particular and add-ons in general allowed the add-on to change anythingin the code instead of having a sell defined api for how to change things.
19:16:55 <WG9s> add-ons could alter anything defined in the source as a global
19:17:45 <Tobin> WG9s: I partly agree with you but only in so extensions that impact the web in todays terms should not be the application modification level of xul extensions.. That should be handled differently from something like a webextension which is today's conception secure priv isolated and web service focused
19:18:04 <Tobin> we should not treat mozilla style extensions as trivial
19:18:05 <Tobin> BUT
19:18:27 <Tobin> the whole point of them IS that deep same level same tech same means modification of the targetApplication
19:18:36 <WG9s>  the whole idea of webextensions is that they are supposed to be browser agnostic, but that does not appear to be the case at all
19:18:56 <Tobin> it should simply not be regarded nor called an extension because that defintion has changed
19:19:19 <Tobin> I would propose the term Modification or Mod
19:19:24 <Tobin> and mods have risks
19:19:27 <Tobin> and power
19:19:30 <Tobin> and responsiablity
19:19:39 <Tobin> extensions today are not mods
19:19:42 <tomman> "browser agnostic", where "agnostic" means "Google"
19:19:49 <WG9s> and still have user-agent sniffing.  I think should be an api to return we extension version supported by the browsr adn then depend on that rather than ua sniffing
19:20:12 <Tobin> so by doing that one could re-introduce that level of extensiablity and customization AND not have to support shit cause it's a mod modifications have to target what they modify properly
19:20:24 <WG9s> well google could have been mozilla had they not pissed off their chief engineer.
19:20:26 <Tobin> I just fixed the fuckin add-ons ecosystem, give me the netscape trademark already
19:20:29 <Tobin> lol
19:20:58 <Tobin> treat xul extensions like video game mods
19:21:02 <Tobin> that's the ticket
19:21:09 <Tobin> puts it in a more approerate context
19:21:16 <Tobin> WG9s: whatcha think?
19:21:26 <WG9s> I was never that thrilled with netsapce.  they were the ones who invented forcing ads on us
19:23:50 <WG9s> the guy who invented mozaoc and had a browser that was government grant funded and therefore could not promote ads. took the code to start netscape and ads were born.
19:24:23 <Tobin> the internet came out of government funding
19:25:00 <Tobin> I honestly think my over all goal is to eliminate the concept of a web.. browser
19:25:38 <Tobin> That is the direction I am personally heading
19:25:49 <Tobin> elimination of the web browser
19:26:03 <Tobin> and the need for a document navigator to do the modern web hoopla
19:26:38 <Tobin> I want to free navigators from having to be webapp browsers.
19:26:46 <WG9s> yes this all came out of darpa
19:26:48 <Tobin> and also balance web and desktop
19:27:05 <WG9s> well odd combination of darpa and ham radio operators
19:27:55 <Tobin> I want to bring webapps to the desktop and also push native programs so that both MUST sidebyside compete and be the best they can be..
19:29:20 <Tobin> inside a web browser with an address bar and back and forward buttons and a personal toolbar and some paltry form of extensions.. webapps don't HAVE to be any good they can rely on the browser to override its deficncies even if it is lazing out in favor of reload or clear your cookies.. cause seems like they built that flaw into the libs rather than avoiding it.
19:29:27 <Tobin> on the desktop
19:29:33 <Tobin> against other programs
19:29:46 <Tobin> webapps must compete with desktop
19:30:00 <WG9s> browser is just an apple thing apple had on macs with network access
19:30:02 <Tobin> rather than desktop competing with whatever is inside a desktop program
19:30:13 <WG9s> i forget waht they called it
19:30:34 <Tobin> well i use the term browser to define what browsers became post-2008ish
19:30:46 <Tobin> and navigator for the stuff before
19:31:16 <Tobin> where the main focus was rendering .. html documents with some images and minor styling and a little event driven js to make it all nifty
19:31:37 <Tobin> world wide web, navigator, netscape.. openweb, browser, chrome
19:32:08 <Tobin> Firefox was a navigator now it is a browser
19:32:24 <tomman> but not an App Platform™
19:32:37 <Tobin> Firefox is not a platform
19:32:40 <Tobin> funny
19:32:47 <tomman> but Firefox OS somehow is :D
19:32:49 <Tobin> Moonchild said the same thing about Pale Moon in 2013
19:32:56 <Tobin> tomman: heh
19:33:09 <tomman> ironically that one still lives as the trainwreck of KaiOS
19:33:19 <Tobin> mozilla is helping kaios out
19:33:23 <tomman> which SOMEHOW survives in 2024 despite being a dumpsterfire
19:33:33 <tomman> KaiOS 3.0 was a brutal transition
19:33:34 <Tobin> so does Pale Moon
19:33:39 <tomman> "time to rewrite your applications, again!"
19:33:58 <Tobin> red mozilla started many dumpster fires
19:34:03 <tomman> that's where they lost Meta, so KaiOS no longer has its flagship 3rd-party application shipping on every phone, WhatsCrapp
19:34:14 <Tobin> Green Mozilla will put some of em out but because he is a badass he will let others burn
19:34:35 <Tobin> I miss green mozilla
19:34:39 <Tobin> he was a cool dude
19:35:17 <Tobin> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Mozilla_statue%2C_AOL_Campus%2C_December_2014.jpg
19:35:20 <Tobin> THIS FUCKER
19:36:22 <Tobin> tomman: http://home.mcom.com/
19:36:41 <tomman> we need to rescue that lizard
19:36:48 <Tobin> I like they capped the web server to roughly 5kb/s
19:37:15 <tomman> bless JWZ
19:37:17 <tomman> he did that
19:37:39 <tomman> period-accurate performance is his motto
19:38:42 <Tobin> Netscape is a network navigator that allows retrieval and viewing of world wide web multimedia documents.
19:38:50 <Tobin> SEE
19:38:56 <Tobin> NAVIGATOR
19:38:58 <Tobin> WORLD WIDE WEB
19:39:03 <Tobin> MULTIMEDIA DOCUMENTS
19:39:14 <Tobin> lol
19:39:25 <tomman> "multi-media"
19:39:26 <Tobin> Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems
19:39:37 <Tobin> no it is multimedia
19:39:39 <Tobin> on that page
19:39:47 <Tobin> http://home.mcom.com/home/faq_docs/faq_client.html
19:47:21 <tomman> "Display and interaction with documents as they load"
19:47:23 <tomman> how novel
19:47:31 <tomman> and yet we have regressed on that
19:47:57 <tomman> now if the 30MB dogpile of toxic JS framework hellstew doesn't load (or fails to run because you're not using an Approved Web Browser AKA CHROME), then you get nothing
19:48:12 <tomman> "Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems"
19:48:26 <tomman> nowadays every webdev assumes you have symmetric unlimited gigabit fiber with negative latency
19:49:20 <tomman> "Multiple simultaneous interruptible network loads of text and images"
19:49:38 <tomman> can't really do that anymore with most JS-driven sites :/
19:49:56 <tomman> "Multiple independent windows"
19:50:01 <tomman> do cellphones even have windows!?
19:50:23 <Tobin> android has tiling windows now
19:50:34 <Tobin> works like early sidebyside metro
20:41:01 <therube> they may have added rust - but, they removed the trust !