hi tomman

so i got this prompt in FF 115 ESR to "take a survey"

afaik (but maybe not) i have all FF "crap" turned off.

so either i don't, or they bypass it, as they wish.

interesting questions as FF is trying to figure out just what "Mozilla" will become

good morning

i hope the best for mozilla really

it's faster than even a qtwebkit that's patched up to it's ass (falkon) which really isn't very different from chromium webkit nowadays...

Hitman_47: true

and at least mozilla technology has a bunch of crazy fucks who can pick it apart and make it do things .. chromium not so much

Hitman_47: We lost the browser war, this is now a war of the desktop and computers its self

browsers are JUST a component driver

You could call it the last great browser war but the stakes are beyond that

RedHat is going to use Mozilla Firefox with userChrome hacks to run their new web anaconda installer

RATHER than making a basic xre application with a browser element to use the tech but not the branded product in the core role of installer shell

Firefox the branded product as the core of everything is JUST AS BAD as chromium

but

not Mozilla in the older platform sense

Firefox is dead top priority important to Mozilla and I can't change that but I think even they aren't opposed just not able or willing to do much to facilitate it

especially considering NOW they are to all become AI obsessed idiots cause new leadership

so..

that will take up much of their time

afaik the mozilla engine has been overhauled once already

in general tech shifts I count 2 and a half times

once when mozilla.org was formed of course giving rise to the core netscape tech

past communicator 4 i mean

oh okay indeed

then a half-change with xpfe to toolkit and another half change with quantium, and another half change with merging xul with xhtml and adding way more rust

lecture me more on that anaconda installer i had no idea it existed for 20 years

redhat linux's installer?

right now its mostly python based

but its backend is being rewritten to cpp

and will get redhat's cockpit as a webfrontend

and they will use userchrome to hide firefox ux and use firefox the branded product as a vital core system component

This is wrong imo

okay so switching to a web frontend cause it's trendy but instead of electron chromium they will be more reasonable and use mozilla but forked and with a stylesheet

and lazy as fuck when I the formerly always pissed off and continued social cripple has already basically done it in 3 days

heh

on modern mozilla

but still it's better than electron

well it isn't electron api based

it's true mozilla based

a real mozilla application

good

with its own nsGenericApp.cpp and everything

for executing stuff outside of it's sandbox thing

well e10s is now unavoidable

but know what e10s would be good for? a pwa/site specific browser runner and manager

that feature mozilla didn't hardly bother with

Consider Hitman_47 if i created such a pwa/generic ssb runner that could take the spot for a lot of people who have to do the second browser dance.. and what are they using a second browser for? webapps

true

I have a marketable product right here using the most basic mozilla tech and no one will make it except me even tho I laid it out in a public channel

what a world we live in huh

it is indeed but wishing you the best of luck man

Then again if this world was right the suite would still be mozfunded and not shunned for a decade

I am gonna help anyone I can.. I am done playing favorites

and xul would have stayed :)

me too kinda

XUL and core netscape tech is great .. for those who know what it is..

that has always been the issue

my self interests have reduced in a lot of fields

i understand why oldschool software is more complicated so xul wasn't catchy

at uxp or sm's level XUL is almost trivial

that doesn't factor in

what is more complicated is modern mozilla

with e10s and xul but not xul but only sometimes xul but not for much longer

and they changed the l10n strings too

the base form has many advantages but the sugar confuses the hell out of me

it's basically stringbundles hacked into dom shit to take over for dtd .. that part is great..

i have unfortunately no idea about that

the be smart and be a psudo programming language parts not so much least on the learning how it does it

heh

yeah neither did I until a few days ago

in general i kinda like even js but man the assembled webapp crap and the programs written in e.g. rust are an eye sore

go is dumbed down python so i'm ok with it

except for google sticking it's nose in compilers instead of justmarketing it

I am also tinkering with suite on comm-central.. don't expect much of anything except experience building from the perspective of familar code but hell I dunno. I mean I think the suite could be fixed up tho it would loose some stuff but also gain some stuff and be somewhat different but I think it could be styled to be largely the same for the most clashy bits.. but that is way way way way more work on tech I am just barely getting a

grasp back on in this new state so no magic SM 128 i am afraid but improvements DO help in backporting to a degree.

And I really wanna do a UX spit and polish pass on the entirety of seamonkey 2.53

it desperately needs it

best of wishes man

i love seamonkey

textboxes and searchboxes not the same height, padding in places, similar designed UIs where buttons in same locations and have same functions get flipped that sort of crap

you know.. take a rag and give it a good wipe down and touch up

Spawn every window study them, make it look...

GOOD

does the gtk3 switch make this easier or the same?

and yeah hehe

that thing developers used to have time for when releases didn't need to be out every 2-3 days

i remember this with some old proprietary programs back in the day

i dunno how much GTK3 affects SeaMonkey's platform yet but a fully xul platform tends to do better since it overrides styling or accomidates gtk styling.. Firefox is mostly relying on GTK styling and matching it when it emulates it

but remember html even xhtml is more freeform than xul design is

and xhtml can have tags namespaced

so xul can be targeted and html otherwise which follows web rules not xul rules so deviations COULD be easier actually

got it

but it all has pros and cons

it can certainly be worth waiting for a while longer

if we had some way to do embedding in mozilla one COULD hotwire modern mozilla into a xul application

tho u'd likely have to feed it a webextension and orchastrate that shit

but it isn't IMpossibe

it would probably look better to the eyes than patching a userChrome.css

but hey at least some themes are made for librewolf in the meantime with it

i use half that half seamonkey

(also used falkon quite a bit but qtwebkit has too weird of a useragent now and since switching to qt6webkit it's gotten heavy)

It is a great shame that qtwebkit is long dead

and qtwebengine is just a chrome wrapper

.. fake name

webengine..

what an implication

regardless

ye

even worse

my concept is XULvolution has many forms including evolving past xul

webdevs are in a new trend of "let's ban native applications", and of course the only allowed development platform is Chrome.

tomman: new?

you mean the past decade?

OK, actually increasing

actually there is pushback

it just is all designed like the web

but these days you now see idiots writing on their Xitters and Mastodumbs about "native is a mistake, death to native"

but regardless

"native == unsafe"

so native peoples are unsafe got it

Rust! All! The! Things! (but compile them to WASM, of course!)

tomman: rust will be an important language but it won't take over .. already there is a lot of undercurrent opposing web everything and seek a more balanced approch and it is STARTING albeit slowly to creep back into the mainstream but those who advocated for the general insnaity in the first place are continuing to double and triple down .. and the feel i get these days is the feeling that those who created the half-waste of time this

past decade has been are gonna be put on rails and a lot of people are gonna be playing fixup as well as figuring out how to operate in the mess we are in now

I just refuse to use fanboy-fueled languages

and Rust has become basically a religion these days

tomman: is the Rust religion any less valid than our xul religion?

they may think so but should we?

tomman: abandon xul then

seamonkey is LITERALLY here to try and continue the suite in the fanboy languages of yesterday

plus the new fanboy languages

well, at least the only fanboys of XUL are us, and we're harmless :D

but Rust... ugh

I am the keeper of the soul of The Beast, stick with me and I will not lead you astray.

:P

that sounded a lot like the visual novel i'm playing right now :D

nice

xul is not a bad language it is the implemenyation in how add-ons worked that was brain damaged. the way cul add-ons in particular and add-ons in general allowed the add-on to change anythingin the code instead of having a sell defined api for how to change things.

add-ons could alter anything defined in the source as a global

WG9s: I partly agree with you but only in so extensions that impact the web in todays terms should not be the application modification level of xul extensions.. That should be handled differently from something like a webextension which is today's conception secure priv isolated and web service focused

we should not treat mozilla style extensions as trivial

BUT

the whole point of them IS that deep same level same tech same means modification of the targetApplication

the whole idea of webextensions is that they are supposed to be browser agnostic, but that does not appear to be the case at all

it should simply not be regarded nor called an extension because that defintion has changed

I would propose the term Modification or Mod

and mods have risks

and power

and responsiablity

extensions today are not mods

"browser agnostic", where "agnostic" means "Google"

and still have user-agent sniffing. I think should be an api to return we extension version supported by the browsr adn then depend on that rather than ua sniffing

so by doing that one could re-introduce that level of extensiablity and customization AND not have to support shit cause it's a mod modifications have to target what they modify properly

well google could have been mozilla had they not pissed off their chief engineer.

I just fixed the fuckin add-ons ecosystem, give me the netscape trademark already

lol

treat xul extensions like video game mods

that's the ticket

puts it in a more approerate context

WG9s: whatcha think?

I was never that thrilled with netsapce. they were the ones who invented forcing ads on us

the guy who invented mozaoc and had a browser that was government grant funded and therefore could not promote ads. took the code to start netscape and ads were born.

the internet came out of government funding

I honestly think my over all goal is to eliminate the concept of a web.. browser

That is the direction I am personally heading

elimination of the web browser

and the need for a document navigator to do the modern web hoopla

I want to free navigators from having to be webapp browsers.

yes this all came out of darpa

and also balance web and desktop

well odd combination of darpa and ham radio operators

I want to bring webapps to the desktop and also push native programs so that both MUST sidebyside compete and be the best they can be..

inside a web browser with an address bar and back and forward buttons and a personal toolbar and some paltry form of extensions.. webapps don't HAVE to be any good they can rely on the browser to override its deficncies even if it is lazing out in favor of reload or clear your cookies.. cause seems like they built that flaw into the libs rather than avoiding it.

on the desktop

against other programs

webapps must compete with desktop

browser is just an apple thing apple had on macs with network access

rather than desktop competing with whatever is inside a desktop program

i forget waht they called it

well i use the term browser to define what browsers became post-2008ish

and navigator for the stuff before

where the main focus was rendering .. html documents with some images and minor styling and a little event driven js to make it all nifty

world wide web, navigator, netscape.. openweb, browser, chrome

Firefox was a navigator now it is a browser

but not an App Platform™

Firefox is not a platform

funny

but Firefox OS somehow is :D

Moonchild said the same thing about Pale Moon in 2013

tomman: heh

ironically that one still lives as the trainwreck of KaiOS

mozilla is helping kaios out

which SOMEHOW survives in 2024 despite being a dumpsterfire

KaiOS 3.0 was a brutal transition

so does Pale Moon

"time to rewrite your applications, again!"

red mozilla started many dumpster fires

that's where they lost Meta, so KaiOS no longer has its flagship 3rd-party application shipping on every phone, WhatsCrapp

Green Mozilla will put some of em out but because he is a badass he will let others burn

I miss green mozilla

he was a cool dude

THIS FUCKER

tomman: home.mcom.com

we need to rescue that lizard

I like they capped the web server to roughly 5kb/s

bless JWZ

he did that

period-accurate performance is his motto

Netscape is a network navigator that allows retrieval and viewing of world wide web multimedia documents.

SEE

NAVIGATOR

WORLD WIDE WEB

MULTIMEDIA DOCUMENTS

lol

"multi-media"

Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems

no it is multimedia

on that page

"Display and interaction with documents as they load"

how novel

and yet we have regressed on that

now if the 30MB dogpile of toxic JS framework hellstew doesn't load (or fails to run because you're not using an Approved Web Browser AKA CHROME), then you get nothing

"Performance tuning for 14.4 kilobyte modems"

nowadays every webdev assumes you have symmetric unlimited gigabit fiber with negative latency

"Multiple simultaneous interruptible network loads of text and images"

can't really do that anymore with most JS-driven sites :/

"Multiple independent windows"

do cellphones even have windows!?

android has tiling windows now

works like early sidebyside metro

they may have added rust - but, they removed the trust !