16:58:22 <CaptainTobin> Good morning
17:05:37 <CaptainTobin> libera staff eh? a fan or someone been bad?
17:50:49 <CaptainTobin> hi tomman
17:50:51 <CaptainTobin> and a-865
17:51:00 <tomman> a backup a day keeps the DR away~
17:51:06 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:51:41 <CaptainTobin> good ol vmware
17:51:54 <CaptainTobin> only damn thing that can run windows properly under linux
17:52:12 <CaptainTobin> I need a shortcut so.. vm and samba
17:53:30 <tomman> > VMWare
17:53:32 <tomman> dude, RUN
17:53:34 <tomman> RUN AWAY
17:53:36 <tomman> FAST!
17:53:43 <tomman> because Broadcom's came with the axe
17:53:47 <tomman> and it's sharp
17:54:18 <tomman> it's even worse than when Orrible® bought VirtualBox via Sun :/
17:55:58 <CaptainTobin> yeah I know
17:56:01 <CaptainTobin> but for RIGHT NOW
17:56:06 <CaptainTobin> vmware is still vmware
17:56:13 <CaptainTobin> the best way to run windows on linux today
17:56:24 <CaptainTobin> tomorrow is a different story but I just need a shortcut
17:57:25 <CaptainTobin> i wanna get stuff done fast and efficiently and for me right now that remains windows. Only a temporary situation but yeah.
17:58:08 <CaptainTobin> either that or boot to windows direct.. and that is not even setup yet this vm partly is
18:00:15 <CaptainTobin> https://youtu.be/FS-M9MopMgw?si=ZUMWG9ZmIZX3KtMH
18:00:20 <CaptainTobin> love that clip
18:13:45 <CaptainTobin> hmm.. can't see to EXECUTE anything over samba
19:09:05 <jonadab> Wait, wait.  You wannt get stuff done fast and efficiently, and in order to accomplish that you are using MS Windows?  Seriously?
19:10:32 <jonadab> That is NOT what Windows is for.  Windows is for when you're deploying computes for users you don't want to have to train, and you don't care if they're productive or not as long as they don't ask you too many questions.
19:11:32 <jonadab> "Here, this'll work just like your computer at home.  Or not work just like your computer at home, more like.  Whatever.  Just like your computer at home.  Have fun."
19:12:49 <jonadab> s/wannt/want to/;
19:15:14 <CaptainTobin> Well I am gonna be productive and ask questions anyway.
19:15:23 <CaptainTobin> jonadab: never stopped be before
19:15:27 <CaptainTobin> me*
19:17:28 <CaptainTobin> jonadab: I been using computers since I was 3 and windows since windows 3.1 happened and you know what.. on linux currently I am using openbox and picom on x and that isn't gonna serve me for ever either
19:27:37 <CaptainTobin> besides it isn't current windows its an ntlite'd ltsc 2019 to my specifications .. as close as I could get
19:28:06 <CaptainTobin> so it basically presents its self more as Windows and less As a Service
19:31:34 <jonadab> I mean, you do you, but Windows is designed to be quick to _learn_ not quick to _use_ .
19:34:28 <CaptainTobin> it isn't about me doing me it is simply right atm the lack of linux experience is slowing things way down or blocking
19:35:48 <CaptainTobin> I hope broadcomm doesn't screw up vmware or at least not too much before I don't need to rely on a windows vm crutch much
19:36:32 <jonadab> I expect the worst they're going to do in the first three years or so, is deprioritize it so it doesn't get as actively maintained as you might prefer.
19:36:43 <jonadab> Long-term, who can say.
19:37:19 <tomman> CaptainTobin: too late, Broadcom has already gutted VMWare and is in the process of extracting the value and throwing the pieces in the trash
19:37:38 <CaptainTobin> no they will just enable newer windows 10 features to make 2019 as close to 2021 as possible and when 2021 goes THEN 2019 will be the last pseudo-real version of windows left and it will rot badly and yet a lot of people will stay on it
19:37:48 <tomman> for example they're moving everybody to mandatory subscription models, and ONLY if you're This Tall Enough To Pass
19:37:48 <CaptainTobin> tomman: damn it
19:38:06 <tomman> the future of their desktop virtualization products is also unclear
19:38:10 <CaptainTobin> they are trying to end keygens
19:38:15 <tomman> but ESXi is already dead
19:38:19 <CaptainTobin> really
19:38:22 <CaptainTobin> so they fucked us
19:38:25 <CaptainTobin> god damn it
19:38:37 <tomman> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/10/broadcom_ends_vmware_partner_program/
19:38:43 <CaptainTobin> well.. 15.5 works for now(tm)
19:38:44 <tomman> https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/23/broadcom_vmware_reorg/
19:39:09 <tomman> https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/28/broadcom_vmware_partner_transition/
19:39:25 <CaptainTobin> well
19:39:26 <CaptainTobin> shit
19:39:56 <tomman> at least Orrible® is letting VirtualBox alone to stagnate and bitrot
19:40:15 <tomman> but Broadcom is pulling the classic Wall Street move: sell the parts while the corpse is fresh
19:40:35 <CaptainTobin> virtualbox fucked up my entire networking stack killing dbus and rendering my system unshutdownable
19:40:45 <CaptainTobin> so tell me how oracle didn't screw up
19:41:17 <tomman> I can't use VBox anyway due to The Sanctions™ (Orrible® blocked my entire country despite the embargo only targeting the government)
19:41:28 <tomman> so I was pretty much forced to move to QEMU/libvirt
19:41:44 <CaptainTobin> and libvert has no real windows acceleration atm
19:41:45 <tomman> powerful, but also far from being as user-friendly as VBox
19:42:01 <CaptainTobin> i can't use kvm as IF it was vmware
19:42:10 <CaptainTobin> it isn't an analogous target or featureset
19:42:14 <tomman> libvirt's handling of virtual networks is horrible, compared with VBox's seamless integration
19:42:28 <CaptainTobin> vmware's handling was best
19:42:55 <tomman> I haven't used VMWare since 2012 or so, back when Player was a nice tool
19:43:02 <CaptainTobin> virtualbox has always looked like and operated as an example of open source's failure
19:43:20 <CaptainTobin> it is a real shame
19:43:39 <tomman> for me what was VBox's strongest selling point was its user friendliness - you could go from zero to VM in minutes
19:43:49 <tomman> but that did made it not really suitable for servers and stuff
19:44:26 <CaptainTobin> well.. it isn't like I will need to virtualize windows for practical using it as a computer in a window for very long
19:44:27 <tomman> wanna run a headless VM on a server? Good Luck With That™ (systemd DID made things easier, but come on...)
19:44:35 <CaptainTobin> just right now to get shit going
19:45:27 <tomman> now, if all you need is to run good ole' XP on your desktop, VBox was like that supermarket brand mayonnaise - cheap, tastes good, and it comes from the same OEM as the big brand expensive mayos :D
19:46:05 <CaptainTobin> and that is why kvm fails as a vmware workstation replacement.. it is geared to virtualize servers and be a node.. vmware workstation's primary function is to present you with a computer in a window
19:46:27 <CaptainTobin> at reasonable performance
19:47:11 <CaptainTobin> I need windows in a window not a server running windows
19:47:17 <CaptainTobin> ;)
19:47:35 <tomman> yeah, that's what I'm saying too - KVM is aimed at being a ESXi competitor
19:47:47 <tomman> you run that in a server farm, not in your laptop
19:48:34 <CaptainTobin> but while vmware made that same tech work as a stellar virtual computer box in a window .. that isn't kvm's goals cause kvm is redhat
19:48:58 <CaptainTobin> the work around is an open source impl of rdp with remotefx
19:49:12 <CaptainTobin> instead of the vmware way which won't exist going forward i guess
19:49:30 <CaptainTobin> and of course microsoft has depercated remotefx
19:49:45 <CaptainTobin> and removed it from their hyperv server
19:49:52 <CaptainTobin> as a display protocol
19:51:07 <tomman> ha, Hy-Perv
19:51:16 <tomman> my only experiences with Hy-Perv have been... craptacular
19:51:26 <tomman> (2008R2 and 2012)
19:51:41 <CaptainTobin> well yeah vmware was better
19:52:29 <CaptainTobin> oh well.. vmware works today and so does my ltsc
19:53:43 <tomman> my very first encounter with Hy-Perv was on 2008R2, I was trying to create a test VM to install CentOS 6 or something
19:54:21 <tomman> needed to add a network card, so I went with a "synthetic NIC" (whatever that meant), and I could never get the VM to boot because of some obscure error related with that virtual NIC
19:54:35 <tomman> ended erasing Hy-Perv and installing VMWare Player
19:55:10 <tomman> years later I would test the waters again on 2012, and well... this time I did got things to boot (including Debian and the Win10 betas)
19:55:45 <tomman> but by then I was unimpressed, and the VM GUI would often act all screwy so I said "to hell with this, I'm sticking to Vbox"
20:04:24 <CaptainTobin> FOUR GIGS
20:04:30 <CaptainTobin> THAT isn't enough ram
20:04:31 <CaptainTobin> lol
20:04:36 <CaptainTobin> hi mrnhmath
20:04:41 <CaptainTobin> how are you this fine day
20:05:14 <mrnhmath> hey CaptainTobin, i'm doing good
20:05:17 <mrnhmath> how about you?
20:05:39 <CaptainTobin> I been creating an xre app using modern mozilla
20:05:50 <CaptainTobin> totally never existed
20:05:55 <CaptainTobin> before
20:06:22 <CaptainTobin> I hope to get a few tidbits changed in mozilla-central so the build system doesn't have to be modified to do that in the future
20:07:12 <CaptainTobin> mrnhmath: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1091572226748321833/1201441533195468850/9fa9bbdf450b23d06db8f7c329a00223f0fb31451751871998503419904.png
20:08:40 <CaptainTobin> facinating isn't it
20:08:48 <mrnhmath> that looks cool, seems like a huge task with lots to learn from
20:09:17 <CaptainTobin> a lot of it is .. just adapting
20:09:24 <mrnhmath> mozilla xhtml doesn't look too bad
20:09:27 <CaptainTobin> this is just an experiment
20:11:01 <mrnhmath> are you using mozilla central, last esr or else?
20:11:08 <CaptainTobin> release atm
20:11:12 <CaptainTobin> is github working for you
20:11:43 <mrnhmath> a bit slow but yes
20:13:07 <CaptainTobin> mrnhmath: https://github.com/binaryoutcast/mozxhtml-example-app
20:14:31 <CaptainTobin> it's only a browser because well that is what most of mozilla has been focused on so seemed the easiest to get working
20:15:04 <CaptainTobin> but once I figure out how widgets work now as customelements how to use and even possibly create them I will have a nice example sample thing
20:15:18 <CaptainTobin> doing again what some even my self deemed "impossible"
20:16:39 <mrnhmath> very interesting
20:16:42 <CaptainTobin> I just don't wanna maintain a platform codebase as anything more than a testing ground for things I will want to submit or fix in mozilla.. There are PLENTY of existing platform codebases and applications I can assist if they are up for it..
20:16:54 <mrnhmath> that could be used as a benchmark for all the work they've done too
20:17:40 <mrnhmath> like the xbl to ce stuff
20:18:13 <CaptainTobin> Thunderbird has a few elements firefox doesn't use i believe
20:18:16 <CaptainTobin> like a statusbar
20:18:39 <CaptainTobin> but i need to restart
20:18:54 <CaptainTobin> i knew i wasn't gonna get away with installing vmware without doing it on linux
20:28:53 <njsg> tomman: hold on, where did I put HP Disaster Recovery... (was that actually branded HP?)
20:36:50 <njsg> CoordinatorTobin: it's possible broadcom will just make vmware reach the quality level of their wireless firmware
20:39:50 <njsg> tomman: can't you get virtualbox anyway? or do you need proprietary components? given it's floss, it can be distributed without caring about oracle
20:40:23 <tomman> njsg: Debian no longer distributes it on their stable repos because of some licensing spat with Orrible® over backporting security patches
20:40:39 <tomman> also: I can't access the bugtracker, forums, and of course I need the Oracle Extension Pack
20:41:04 <tomman> at least for Java I've got embargo-free choices, like Temurin
20:41:56 <njsg> yeah, the extension pack I understand, but what licensing spat could that be?
20:42:11 <njsg> I'll just guess that debian has the law on their side but oracle attacked with their legal department.
20:42:15 <njsg> it's oracle, so it's a safe bet.
20:42:54 <tomman> I can't recall the specifics, but yes, Debian has the habit of backporting security patches for older releases and Oracle refused because it's not in their best interests to disclose those fixes
20:43:04 <tomman> or some similar BS
20:43:20 <tomman> (There are ways to install VirtualBox on Debian, but that ship long sailed for me, sadly)
20:43:51 <njsg> i thought VirtualBox was floss
20:46:17 <tomman> floss is what Orrible lawyers use, yes :D
20:46:28 <njsg> unless the fixes concern something that's specifically not GPL, or oracle has the full copyright of VirtualBox and relicenses it to release the fix without the source
20:47:08 <tomman> IIRC the situation was basically: Debian: "we need the security patches from your latest release to backport them to our release"
20:47:17 <tomman> Orrible: "lolno, we don't do that, use the latest release"
20:47:27 <tomman> Debian: "that's not how we do things in Debian land"
20:47:37 <tomman> Orrible: "go pound sand then, and beware of the laywers"
20:47:41 <tomman> --lawyers
20:47:56 <MattATobin> `./configure --disable-lawyers
20:48:12 <tomman> now VBox only survives in Sid, and a very niche repo known as Fasttrack, that nobody knows that it even exists
20:48:50 <njsg> well, I guess this depends on who has copyrights in VirtualBox and if anyone is willing to fund Debian's legal expenses, because that is in violation of the GPL.
20:49:15 * njsg points Oracle legal to FSF v. Cisco Systems
20:50:06 <MattATobin> well we can't keep just trying to cancel people these license bits are gonna have to be put to the test and actually solidifed at some point or another
20:51:12 <CaptainTobin> However, history has proven I am not the man to make open source licenses reasonably enforceable.
20:51:30 <CaptainTobin> that is for DAMNED sure
20:52:34 <tomman> https://packages.debian.org/sid/virtualbox note that it's not even on "main", but on "contrib" (because of some DSFG Nedflanderisms because Open Watcom is required to build the BIOS)
20:54:02 <njsg> I guess the easiest course of action is a fork.
20:54:25 <njsg> But that said I've been meaning to have a deeper look at qemu, VirtualBox has never served me that well
20:54:38 <CaptainTobin> well kvm will be fine for non-gui linux
20:54:42 <CaptainTobin> no problems whatsoever
20:54:42 <njsg> I think now it can't even keep the host's keyboard mapping
20:54:47 <CaptainTobin> because that is what it is designed for
20:54:56 <njsg> since some version, I've got to set hacks in the guest OS to have caps lock as control
20:54:59 <CaptainTobin> windows will work but not well gui wise outside rdp
20:55:34 <CaptainTobin> and I don't remember the settings I used to get really good virtual hd access
20:56:22 <njsg> the only thing I did was to make HDs "fixed", although I guess switching to a virtual I/O controller probably helps too, if there's one
20:56:57 <tomman> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=794466 ah, there is it
20:57:03 <tomman> > virtualbox: might not be suitable for stable releases due to lack of cooperation from upstream on security support for older releases
20:57:55 <tomman> and Orrible's answer? "Unfortunately there is an Oracle policy which forbids us to provide relevant information about security bugs, see here: http://www.oracle.com/us/support/assurance/vulnerability-remediation/disclosure/index.html"
20:58:59 <tomman> To be fair, this is mostly a self-inflicted wound by Debian, but Oracle's lawyerisms do not help at all, especially with a supposedly FOSS project
21:16:03 <njsg> so far looks like there is source, but that what oracle is not providing is the link between [code] changes and the listed fixed vulnerabilities?
21:24:14 <tomman> IIRC yes, they will tell "we fixed CVE-blah-blah, but can't tell you how we did because Corporate Policy"
21:24:45 <tomman> so that leaves downstream to figure out what they did changed, which is a lot of extra work
21:25:17 <tomman> (not to mention that such an approach might introduce new security bugs, or break functionality!)
21:44:57 <MattATobin> there HOPEFULLY I have made vmware and samba co-exist
21:45:00 <MattATobin> ... pain in the ass
21:45:27 <MattATobin> man everything being network based in linux is really fuckin stupid if the networking stack busts
21:45:32 <MattATobin> anything can do it it seems
21:48:25 <MattATobin> sssd makes samba fuck the network stack when vmware is started tl;dr among a lot of things
21:48:50 <MattATobin> which kills dbus and cripples pretty much any ipc
21:49:01 <MattATobin> systemwide
21:49:06 <MattATobin> its pretty spectacular
22:16:20 * njsg mutters something about System V IPC :-P
22:16:37 <MattATobin> yeah I am not impressed either
22:20:15 <MattATobin> Yep.. still Tobin. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1091572226748321833/1202014264400035951/image.png
22:35:28 <tomman> why bother with System V when you have Sailor V? :D