which missing lib causes XPCOMGlueLoad error?

nvm, found it

libgtk-3-0 on buntu wasn't installed

only libgtk-3-common was

tomman: I think it's like third or something. Second at least for sure.

Status meeting in 37 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-01-07

ah you had a visit from the ted cruz spammer

I set this in mah channel * CaptainTobin has changed the topic to: Welcome to BinOC/Chat :: No response? Highlight-a-Tobin! :: We like Bob Dole, Bob Dole likes Bob Dole, but Bob Dole doesn't like spam.. BOB DOLE! :: <irc.binaryoutcast.com> XLINE: CaptainTobin added a permanent Z-line on [ipv6 addy] : Ted Cruz to the topic.

seamonkey-2.53: Cross-Reference does not need regenerated at this time.

seamonkey-2.53: Finished checking tree.

also you know it actually helps to reload nginx after grabbing a new cert?

CaptainTobin Hi. Hopefully at 2.53.18 already. I sometimes are late to update the file in the master branch.

i seems somethimes late to renewing my domains certs etc

late new year's resolution

renew things BEFORE they expire

hi frg_Away

IanN_Away: don't go away yet there is a status meeting i heard lol

frg_Away: so i learned how to create basic drop-files rpm and recompile source rpms that are already made

who manages the fedora package for seamonkey btw

CaptainTobin buc is the Fedora maintainer.

on time today~

hi .*

tomman hi

never buy QLC SSDs with Maxiotek controllers~

is that a sub-brand of Broadcom?

broadcom owns vmware

conserning

(Broadcom, a brand widely known for the stability and resilience of their firmware for wireless NICs)

broadcom a brand wide knownly for substandard products and crappy drivers

sorry njsg

i have a different longer term experience with broadcom tech

and it tends to rather annoy me

so where is this status meeting

lol

CaptainTobin: that was sarcasm :-P

checking in for the meeting

oh good then we don't ACTUALLY HAVE to disagree

i like when that happens

rsx11m Rainer_Bielefeld hi

Hi,

I will be lurking and see whether there are tasks where I will be able to assist a little.

hi all

Status meeting time - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2024-01-07

I didn't know there was gonna be one and I been very hit and miss.. i just .. sensed a need to show up.

Rainer_Bielefeld: hi

rsx11m: hi

hi rsx11m

Hi rsx11m, all

Happy New Year to all!

Who's taking minutes?

CaptainTobin: Normally every 3 weeks but hollidays required adjustments

hi Rainer_Bielefeld

happy new year.

I do and late again probably

hi .* (to expand the scope of the first regex), and yes, happy new year .*

hello new year~

njsg: yes difference between regexps and file name refernces

frg: thanks

the shell does not use regexps

frg: no, Maxiotek is a JMicron spinoff of their former SSD controller division

Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank?

rsx11m for setting up the meetings and CaptainTobin for maintaining the xref.

second

second both to be clear

tomman: (JMicron, I think I had bad experience with one controller being less than optimal...)

thirded both

offtopic: Never buy QLC and you are good.

agreed

Action Items

I think the move to our won archive is more or less done thanks to ewong.

^own

yes

Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure

No change I think. website is now maintained in heptapod.

IanN I saw some build jobs using heptapod. Is gitlab still needed for it?

Die ewong say something about it?

frg: he's being doing some testing but we're still using gitlab for the moment

ok Not much of a problem pusning to both.

^pushing

I think pushes to comm-central no longer update our bugs but might be one time.

Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree

All building. central updated too with latest stuff from central queue and revied patches.

thanks for those checkins

all my builds seem to be working

Thanks to Bill to keep it building too.

newly working are 2.53 linux 32 bit builds

Release Train

We will do a 2.53.18.1 Wanted to set it up last week but real life came in between...

I am working with ewong to figure out hwo to integrate my 2.53 builds to the new archive site

why a .1 this time?

to fix a crash in MessageChannel

and some security fixes

I pan to still keep my archive site but will advetise the official one wonce it wotks untill we have miror sites for the offisal archive. a dont want a single point of failure

so iof an issue on the officails site I can just update the #SeaMonkey topic temporarily to my site till t is fixed

and once 2.53.18.1 is out will start thinking about 2.53.19b1

In case new people wonder about the new background on my site that is the it is the snowstorm background as it is snowing here.

Extensions Tracking

nothing new here I think

i'm not aware of anything that's changed

no new breakages to report from here so far

2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable

BAU for me

Still trying to get SpiderMonkey updated with Myckel. Now at mid 62a1 but the new regexp breaks.

buc took a look too and found one problem but still no go.

Looks like I need to put in the patches from the wip branch in piecemeal: gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-wip

most wanted JS features these days for frameworks: dynamic imports is becoming a widespread one, also BigInt

I've noticed some frameworks are getting better at concealing errors about unsupported features

yes, always helpful!

sorry, some spillover sarcasm.

so that makes it somewhat difficult to figure out why websites break as you can't see the why from the get go

tomman yeah the wip branch has the "beginnings" in. Would be a snap to add it fully from it wouldnÄt it be for the regexp breakage. Taking this out would mean the other half of the web breaks again. bahhh...

the usual recommendation to find out what breaks would be to check the JS console for errors, but some pages will indeed either hide it, or show an error in unrelated code that can't handle an error condition

off topic: If it were not for SeaMonkey I woudl leave IT probably now. No more fun with mondern OS versions and the web itself. Only good for shopping around now mostly.

for me still woring with ewong to be able to post builds form my automation to the new archive server seems i can not post directly from my build server unless i update to later linux version whch would mean my builds would have less backwards comptibility. thying to see if the jumphost could be used as an intermeidataly that I could put builds on in a zi[p file with a sccript to run to...

...install them so scp the zip file and then ssh a command to process the zip fileused t do this back in the day when we for security reasons has zer acces to ur external web server for the conapny form our internal net and had do post a file with info and files it should install

this was set up by my much smarter friend Howard. I just inherited it when he left the company.

it seems there might be a stronger push towards Wayland in the linux world, which probably won't help adding to actual fun, unless you don't need the X Window System

njsg yes this too

frg: I haven't researched yet, my first question is, I think "how are BSDs handling this?". One thing is some linux distros wanting to ditch X11, another thing is the whole *nix universe.

ah, Wayland

well just next iteration of what was originall called W for windows and then updated so called it X as next letter in the alphbet but then for next udate instead of calling it Y decided to name it after a twn in the ares

X11 is the hill I chose to die on, but distros may not have any option after Red Hat effectively signed X.org's death warrant

so it's get on board or die (XWayland is a bandaid at best)

Also, what's the future of 32-bit SeaMonkey versions?

it makes it sound way different because of a differnt way of naming but really now differnt than when W became X

that's another thing on the chopping block not only on Windows, but also across the Linux ecosystem

for backwards compatibility, the question is how not to require newer versions of standard libraries (especially GNU libc++, but probably also GNU libc), right?

next Debian stable will not ship i386 installers anymore

Firefox only recently more or fully supported it. If someone wants this in SeaMonkey we need help. It is about 6000 patches to widget. Not all needed but a bunch will be.

is just the latest way to do windows in *IX form MIT

just a new name

Personally I will ditch any wayland only and not shipping kde too distro.

Wayland inlcudes a thing called Weson (a neighboring town) to permit running X11 apps under wayland

Weston

a problem is that wayland is different and may not have all X11 features

IanN As for i386 I assume no decision yet. When we switch to Rocky 8 for building it should go away for the official builds imho.

WG9s_: no, Weston is the "reference" compositor

it does not provide X11 compatibility - XWayland is a separate thing

last I checked PRIMARY was TODO or in progress in Wayland; Also, it seems the different approach breaks xscreensaver

and not all DEs use Weston - GNOME and KDE Plasma bring their own compositors, and the GNOME one is infamous for only supporting what GNOME requires and nothing else

at least according to some blog at jwz.org

frg: yeah, need to switch to Rocky 8 soon though

tomman: well, it *is* GNOME

njsg: yeah, Wayland also breaks screensavers, and this is by design :/

njsg: sadly the most used Wayland compositor is GNOME's one

hey folks

tomman: yeah, precisely what I was aiming at, it's not that the design is good or bad, but that it is different, so it's bound to not work for some things, it's bound to introduce undesirable differences for some users

I hope it's okay if I speak a bit here, since I'm a Wayland aficionado?

that's the single biggest problem with Wayland: you can't assume your compositor will implement the features your app needs

macOS native building is sitll also broken because of some missing stuff which could only go in for the Rocky builder.

so gotta be careful there

ah, Mac

which these days means ARMac too

I summoned some BinOC Re-enforcements to assist.

Son_Goku sure.

problem with the gnome is that is is severly bloated and is why we are thinking of dropping linus 32-bit suppot becuase gnome on a 32-bit system really sucks

IanN: and would the switch to Rocky 8 affect backwards compatibility in linked binaries?

so from the perspective of features that a web browser needs, the baseline is generally implemented in Mutter (GNOME), KWin (KDE), and any compositor using wlroots as their building block

njsg probably. Later libstdc++

at least at this point now, maybe not a few years ago, but definitely now

my guess will require glibc version 2.28

Son_Goku personally I just want it to work. Don't care but either X11 or Wayland. But Wayland seems to be an ongoing big construction site.

Yes any bump in el build host and deps will affect backwards compatibility to be .. non-existant lower than the glibc version

frg: WG9s_: so the problem is in requiring newer libstdc++ and possibly newer libc? As in, is this the *only* thing that'd need a solution?

frg: I think the main thing SeaMonkey would be concerned of is integration of the xdg-desktop-portal API for screensharing, camera, and microphone access

otherwise, the rest of it is windowing "stuff" that IIRC you guys get mostly from GTK already?

oh and portal for file picker

frg: WG9s_: I remember seeing some options about that, but IIRC a problem was also in other packages and libraries built and linked with seamonkey?

They do not use client drawn window controls except in full screen Son_Goku

they rely on window manager client decorations

right, so that means libdecor integration

libdecor handles SSD setup in all environments, especially ones that don't have it directly supported

Son_Goku There are just not enough devs around. I am keeping Windows and macOS floating and IanN and WG9s mostly Linux. No problem doing backports but not much time left to actually do our own stuff.

firefox has both modes on linux now so patchqueue i guess?

... client drawn window controls, is this a world where everything looks like a TWAIN scanning appled designed by the vendor to look unique? :-)

njsg: i build with --enable-stdcxx-compat to get wanings about issues and then have a script the post processes the log file output to find those and find the latest version required and all it reports is needs glibc 2.28

yeah, I think there's some judicious cherry-picking from Firefox

that could work here

but it may require bringing in all the compositor work in general

which could be massive

stranksy and jgrulich did most of the work for this upstream firefox, I could connect you with them if it'd help?

and not wholey compatible with this design

this is using an old version of fedora to try to maintin compatibility for my builds I amd using f29

Son_Goku I/we know what to do in general but just no time. Easier to just put the wigtet fixes in chronologically and rebase.

ah okay

sorry

I didn't mean to make it sound like you don't know stuff

Son_Goku nothing to be sorry about. It is just that we are so few devs. Mozilla toiplet paper budget and resources are probably higher :)

lol

how close is your webrtc integration code to upstream firefox?

Son_Goku No offence taken. I is just still a wonder hat we are managing with so few people.

"Mozilla toilet paper budget", gonna steal that one

60 61 but not supported anyway witout an add-on

okay

that's really where the meat and potatoes are for the "Wayland experience" for browsers anyway

issue here is we have people wanting to run on latest Linux that kind of wants Wayland and those who have 32 bit systems they bought 20 years ago hat they still want to work. and we have limited resources.

May sound really backwards but mozilla slowed down much after about 65. We just need to mover over this hill while keeping compatibility with classic add-ons.

^to move

Wayland windowing has worked for a while in Firefox, I think since at least 65

in Fedora we've had it on by default since Firefox 65

WG9s_: realistically 32-bit architectures are screwed by the end of the decade anyway... Y2K38 is coming

and all the potential "fixes" are ABI breaks, which means nobody can realistically do them

I plan to update widget but js first.

spidermonkey et all IS a higher target

others have prioritized the same

frg: honestly, I'm not surprised that they slowed down after 65

yeah, the biggest priority now is JS compatiblity

wasn't that the Quantum release?

57 was quantum.

well I was close :P

Son_Goku: re 32-bit and y2k38, at least for IA32, how much of a problem would an ABI break be, couldn't it all be compiled as a 'different' architecture, say "IA32-y2k38"?

njsg: everyone who cares about 32-bit x86 seems to want binary compatibility

that's where the problems are

It seems the momentum lasted some time but I see not much change lately. But keep in might that I might be wrong :)

there's a discussion going on in lkml, libc-alpha@, and distributions@ and nobody has come up with a good solution here that doesn't create even more problems

any more AOB?

Biggest breakages was after 60 when the classic add-on stuff was removed.

nothing from me.

as an example, one suggestion was to make 32-bit time_t unsigned, but... that breaks "negative time" (that is, counting dates before UNIX Epoch)

Son_Goku: prblem is borwsers have become bloated adn pwople who ony want to use it to buy things and do banking have to carry all of the bloat to do streaming audio.video which soes not fit in a 32 bit application

I don't entirely disagree

but I also am in the weird position of being slightly thankful because otherwise I'd have a much harder time using Linux as a daily driver for work

the writing is on the wall for 32-bit anyway - in 10 years from now on those of us that will still be running it are retroenthusiasts, virtual machines, and people living on extremely poor countries where the Pentium 4 is still a hot commodity

but no modern software would run on it anyway

Son_Goku: oh, I can appreciate lack of compatibility being an issue, was just wondering because I suppose it'd at least be possible to keep some IA32 system still running with newer software and no y2k38 issue

njsg: there are a few ways if you're fine with no binary compat

the easiest is forcing 64-bit time_t everywhere

oh dear

:)

also, convincing web devs to stop jumping on the latest JS shinies shipped by Chrome is another pain point

and I still don';t now waht is going to happen in 2033 worse than Y2k is when the number of seconds since jan 1 1970 gets too big

tomman: I don't know how broad it is, but at least in my circles, there seems to be increasing pushback on that nowadays

Hmmm... I should be try setting the date on my 386SX-40 to 2038 and see how Windows 95 halts and catches fire

that would be funny :P

IanN: I don't think I have more to add to AOB either.

too big for 32 bit integer

Anyway, none of my 32-bit boxes run web browsers anyway these days (except for that ol' XP laptop which I use only for email)

sorry that I wasn't any help here, but if y'all do have questions about Wayland stuff, feel free to ask

Son_Goku: my view is that such code, especially frameworks, should do at least a minimum job on handling error conditions and not failing unless they have to

njsg: there's increasing pushback on those frameworks in general

Son_Goku: Ideally telling what's the missing feature instead of "upgrade to Other-Browser XYZ"

yeah

Son_Goku I really like to discuss things and keep and open mind so all good. I know that we need to play catch up.

okay, thanks for your time today, next meeting is in 3 weeks time, same bat channel, same bat time

I remember when Google Translate's "Translate this page" broke because they had fallback code for lack of window.performance, but were not checking for a much newer feature

I'm sure that any report to google would be received the same way my request to unblock mozilla.support.seamonkey was. that is, ignored

frg: well I'm here, and you can also catch me on the Matrix side if you're over there (that's where I usually hang out)

(there was a suggestion out there that Google unplugging Groups from USENET was because somebody inside Google managed to escalate a ticket about the spam coming from Groups)

Son_Goku thanks.

the whole y2k issue had to do with 2 things first keeping 2 digit years in the code so sudenl they go back to 1 and second incorrect leap year crap which dud laep year is every 4 years except those divided by 100 but 2000 was a leap year

becaseu was divisible by 1000

Son_Goku: if you visit places like Hacker News, you'll find nothing but praise for frameworks "pushing things forward" (and people spreading FUD about "old Firefox forks")

oh yeah I know

hilariously on the Fediverse it's the opposite

ha, Mastodon

and there's a lot of disdain for HN these days

real rule is skip leap year if year is divisible by 100 unless it is also divisible by 1000

the social network that absolutely requires JS to work :/

tomman: re HN: and also cloudflare staff which actually handles support requests when cloudflare DDoSes itself!

(wish there was a Nitter for Mastodon)

mastodon's official web interface is a nightmare. it's heavy, and possibly geared toward doing everything in a single tab

doesn't RSS work for this?

takes time to load, loves to be async

I've found some Mastodon instances that do not render at all on SeaMonkey due to some latest JS shiny not supported

oh it does, yes

njsg: I don't use masto's official UI myself

there is Brutaldon, a JS-less web client, but it requires an account

tomman: usually you can get RSS of accounts and tags at a mastodon server, might not always work if it's not the official software I guess?

(I only read threads, I don't actively use social media)

I use Elk or Tokodon

while Elk is more JS-heavy, Tokodon is a native client

my ideal way to handle something like mastodon would be something like a USENET client

WG9s_: 100 unless it is also divisble by 400

I'm not interested in native clients for that, sorry :/

so the so called y2k issue was 2 problems one was only keeping the lat 2 digits of the year and 2 not undersatnidning the leap year rules

tomman: no worries

as I've said, I don't actively use social media, I only need to read linked stuff

maybe someday Brutaldon will drop the requirement of having an account for read-only purposes...

WG9s_: 100 unless it is also divisble by 400 unless it is also divisible by 1000

or maybe someone will make a Nitter fork

yes

ah

reminder: 2024 is leap year!

would be fun a release on February 29th :D

IanN I think we are done with the meeting. Next one in 2 weeks but that doesn't mean everyone needs to stop talking now :)

and the newer issue is that i think it is in 2033 that the *nix universally used number of seconds passed the epoch overflows a 32 bit integer

tomman: there doesn't seem to be a request for brutaldon to have a nitter-like mode

maybe ask and they may do it

do they use Github?

gitlab: gitlab.com/brutaldon/brutaldon

ah, Gitlab

frg: 3 weeks isn't it?

at least that one is not THAT broken here yet

IanN Ah sorry 3 I mean.

frg: though the notes say 21st currently

wonders how many things that will break

oh god, Clownflare is checking my web browser to figure out if it is Secure™

tomman: also: older versions of mastodon's web ui didn't require JS and could be read without JS

ha, I had never bothered creating a Gitlab account :D

isn't SeaMonkey on GitLab?

or is it just a mirror there?

tomman: if you have a nicer way to follow RSS, given a mastodon URL, try adding .rss to see if it works

Son_Goku yeah for the 2.53 line. central is broken but building in commn-central. But usually use the command interface only. Wasn't that bad when we started.

ah

Son_Goku use Vivaldi as a second browser now fro broken sites. The closest Chromium thing to the suite.

Edge was ok first but junk now.

Now deinstalling Edgeand the webview2 junk right and left on my systems.

I've been increasingly able to get away with using Firefox for things

there's only one thing I use regularly that requires Chrome for me, and that's for communicating with a specific group on their preferred video call platform

and Fedora's Chromium works well enough for me for that

ugh, Gitlab is SLOW

tomman anything using webcomponents is a bloated pig usually. Even in a Chrome browser no speed daemon.

add to that a 12 year old Sandy Bridge i5, and you get a GAAAAAAH from me :/

tomman: I know the feels

most of my computers are ~7-10 years old

yeah, even typing text on forms here is SLOW

damn, letting GitLab open for too long really made my SM very sluggish...

that's where about:memory sometimes brings relief~

tomman: final or b1pre?

build 20240104220119

that is... yesterday

I think the debug menu has an option for that

hmm, have never noticed that "Flush memory" menu!

I usually enter about:memory, and try GC, then Minimize Memory

Will be handy, unless that entry is for something else? Is this doing GC, CC and minimize memory?

generally I do GC first, if it doesn't help, I go with Minimize Memory

after a few days I have to restart the browser anyway, because there comes some point where even Minimize Memory won't help anymore

Will I ever be able to login with SM on Discourse forums?

> Discourse

abandon all hope

you don't fit into Jeff's vision

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZ RAPED NUKES ASS

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

CaptainTobin I AM INEVITABLE

CaptainTobin TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZ RAPED TOBINS ASS

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZ KEEPS A JAR OF HITLERS CUM IN HIS FRIDGE

OH GOD

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

WG9s_: this one is for you

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

TED CRUZ PUTS HIS CUM IN MILK CARTONS TO SEND TO SCHOOLS FOR STUDENTS TO DRINK

TED CRUZ KEEPS A JAR OF HITLERS CUM IN HIS FRIDGE

TED CRUZ RAPED NUKES ASS

TED CRUZ KEEPS A JAR OF HITLERS CUM IN HIS FRIDGE

HE TAKES A SIP EVERY YEAR

TED CRUZ RAPED ATHENIANS ASS

TED CRUZ SHARES A CUP OF HITLERS CUM WITH JWZ

TED CRUZS GRANDFATHER AND HITLER WERE LOVERS THEY FAGFUCKED EACH OTHER CROSSEYED EVERY DAY

tomman did a kcik ban

kicks are cool~

so did a ban then a kick so the ban should prevent re-joining at least for now

Honestly the weirdest thing is the mention of Zawinski. I wouldn't have expected him to be on the radar for that kind of spam.

I didn't even notice, that's... too context-aware.

someone should send the log to JWZ :D

IanN_Away: this guy is using ip addresses all over telus's alloc

on my irc server I just banned telus for a while

I wonder who the HELL I pissed off in canada

well he sure is an idiot.

jonadab: I am convinced this spam is happening to target me specifically

because I am here

you get spanned

spammed

CaptainTobin: doubt it, I've seen that idiot spamming on other channels

where else

but the "on-topic" F-bombs are certainly new

I think I saw him once at #debian or something like that

this has also happened on my irc server every time its happened here

so its the same guy

or was it #networking? Can't recall

he is STILL targeting me and my server where no one has said more than a few messages in months

but the Ted Cruz crapola was the same

and when it was offline people sent even less

well who hates me and debian and maybe you guys

i say whomever it is is a bsd user

thing is ted cruz is a corrupt republican and jzw is irrepuably liberal.. why are they sharing hitler's bodily fluids?

so confused

I've always thought trolls have VERY weird fetishes :D

the specific wordchoice is interesting

fetishes straight out from a Japanese visual novel :D

send em to the bme pain olympics

welp

back to linuxing

BOB DOLE!

CaptainTobin: I've seen that spam elsewhere, I think. I can't recall where, might have been #gentoo-*, or perhaps it was on another network...

CaptainTobin: sorry I can't recall the details, but I'd be inclined to say it's not targetting you or at least not just you. I wish I had more data to offer.

now if the spammer gets in here again and starts OFFERING DATA, either they've got another connection here or they're reading from some log?