there that's a little better thereisonlyxul.org

0930|14:57:33 <+tomman> at least serve me a .sh! :D <-- next thing malware authors will be hitting "what do you mean .sh is not bash? What do you mean GNU and UNIX, isn't it all linux?"

<+tomman> you can't activate W10/11 anymore with a legit W7/8 key starting last week <-- you mean windows 7 users don't need to find ways to blacklist gwx.exe anymore? :-)

njsg this is long gone. You could install Windows 10 and enter a Win 7 or 8.1 key to activate. According to deskmoderer this still works for Windows 11 22H2. Getting a junky Thinkpad X230 this week and can try.

^deskmodder.de

Status meeting in 30 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2023-10-01

frg_Away: ah, I was thinking of the other way around, the nagging to install 10 in 7

Here for the meeing

meeting

hi .*

I am here for the meeting as well seeing as I like SeaMonkey Status Meetings. Well I always have and even sometimes have something to add!

Status meeting in 3 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2023-10-01

Status meeting time - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2023-10-01

hi rsx11m

hi rsx11m

Who's taking minutes?

hi all rsx11m

me

thanks

hi everybody!

Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank?

I nominate Rainer Bielefeld for help aand website changes.

seconded

thirded

Action Items

hallo world~

just in time for breakfast and meeting

We have a meeting with MoCo on Tuesday, initially to discuss storage

I AM HIOING MOVING THE NIGHTLY ARCHIVES TO MY SERVER HELPS

hmm opps must have hit caps lock

*covers ears*

sorry abut that

:P

thanks WG9s

Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure

should reduce storage costs

Not much done here. Our Windows 2012 R2 server will be pactchable for another year in Azure.

But the new one is there. Just need some stuff from the old and would like someone to mount the old e: disk to it.

frg: hopefully that's something ewong can do

Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree

I can transfer it via rdp but this would take longer and is billable.

Need to do some pushed to central but behind one review so will wait till then.

Everything builds.

Didn't try clang 17 yet.

reminding me maybe we need to sthand up a tinderbox type server to show status of build

I could maybe do this on my server if I can find the code as that is where the builds are performed

WG9s would need someone to maintain it. I think we are "out of people" already so would't want to add something. As long as your builds build this is all I need :)

but that is all this needs to show is staus of my recent builds

Getting tinderbox setup is an insane task.. creating a tinderbox-like setup tailored to your neeeds is a far more doable prospect

something simple is better

well that is what i think is needed since it is all local on my server sould be simpler

need to show staus of recent builds on my server

and can re-instate what used to be a rule. you can;t check in on red except for things that should fix the redness

Well if someone can find the sources I am sure between the lot of us we can find out what voodoo mozilla using

2.53.18b1pre currently has a broken delete bookmarks function. Will be fixed in the next build.

I have developed a bit of a knack for that it seems.

I am out on this one in any case. Would add another swamp to my swamped one.

so maybe just something to show lat build status green or red.

i can probably do that

mozbuild its self has diag capability and automation hell built in surely we can extract status collect it and put up a green cell or the traditional firegif if it succeeded or failed

Release Train

2.53.17.1 was done as a security release

but then some builds i don;t do if earlier ones v=failed. like a major issue with linux-64 means i do not do macOS or linx-32 so do I mark them as failed or not sure.

same with sindows 32-bit if 75-bit fails

same with sindows 32-bit if 64-bit fails

WG9s: status now magic later ;)

Last weeks vp8 encode fix should not concern us. Fixed in 2.53.18b1 pre.

so green if last build sorked red if it failed and grey if was not tried

If anyone thinks the encode bug would hit us too we can do a 2.53.17.2 but I just don't see how.

may I ask why nss dbm is a hard requirement still?

my opinion is we whold try to get a 1.52.18 beta build out soonish and doing a 2.53.17.2 will just delay that

my opinion is we whold try to get a 2.53.18 beta build out soonish and doing a 2.53.17.2 will just delay that

Updated from 2.49.x and earlier. Needed for migration. I thought about removing it for some time now. Anyone not on 2.53 will not be on 2.53 ever I think.

^Updates from 2.49 and earlier

Plan to do the nss swithc to esr115 and might remove it then I think.

frg: you merely need to make sure your touchbase version that has dbm enabled but migration to sqlite just has a few version soak time.. then just make sure for profile reasons to keep that version as a touchbase for peole who don't update much

that is how Pale Moon, Basilisk, and Interlink handled it

if it IS migrated already

just drop it and update nss as far as it will allow

Yes. Same for Firefox and TB. Watershed releases. Just with Apple breaking us with every new major release now you can't use older ones there. Not tested macOS 14 yet but might actually an exception from this rule.

But on the other hand earlier versions wouldnÄt run there either so...

well mac you could just make a special release with older dbm enabled nss every year or two.. if you cared

But that is silly forget i said it

I don't care about any one still using 2.49.x or earlier on a still supported OS. I am not happy about old extensions braking but most are fixable or fixed by someone.

Does 56 have the updated gyp nss building?

your 56

webestensions need a version number type thig otherwise just make browser sniffing problem worse. so need a webesxtensions version and way for thebrower either via user agent or an api to provide the webextensions version supported

if not I can assist there.

yes. nss changes basically apply unchanged.

otherwise the entire webextensions idea is just garbage

webex also need ids which mozilla retained

sorry what point are we at IanN

just about to move onto "Extensions Tracking"

right

the idea was extensions that are browser agnostic but implemented in a way that makes them more browser specific

Nothing to add. 2.53.18b1 can be done any time. IanN just needs to be ok with crash reporting there I think.

wasn't that the biggest flaw with WebExtensions since day one?

trying to make them browser agnosting was doomed from the get go

WebExtensions is basically lego. You need to implement much of the logic in the core product imho.

WebExtensions was Jetpack without all that Mozilla-ness

let's be clear here

qwas not a bid idea just a really bad implementation

bsd idea

To me, trying to make extensions browser-agnostic would sound like something that'd either be powerless or only work when all supported browsers aren't different enough to exist as different applications.

but really a lame idea also if the idea is websites will depend on this then should be built in to what is a browser

Extensions Tracking

otherwise the magic needs ot be on the server side where it belong rather then depending on the borwser to be a specific one.

Well we won't change it. XUL is basically dead and we just keep it on life support as long as possible.

but this is not the correct forum for this discussion

2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable

frg: XUL exists beyond sm's tree so declairations of death are a bit premature my friend

bau. Still trying to get SpiderMonkey to 62 in a different patch queue. Halfway there and then the rebase fun starts. Not sure fi I manage. But if I do then 63 next.

I think I have a working archive of my nightly builds that can be used in bisecting issues.

Well it is not dead in our tree too and I invst much of my free time to keep it alive but... :)

Onlyx 400 patches out for 800 left :D

The most wanted JavaScript shiny nowadays is dynamic imports, it's the new "emoji regex" site-breaking feature

i resist you loosing livemarks

and rss features

I've found a couple sites wanting ReadableStreams, but those do work if I enable the respective prefs on about:config

I think they are still there.

I have also posted the SDK tar files I use for my builds

for those trying to do macOS cross compiles

tomman I only do this to apply stuff cleaner. First patches for bigint in in my queue and dymanic imports are in 63.

forgot which site wanted BigInts

...wasn't it Discourse?

ah no, DIscourse actively sabotages browsers that do not fit Jeff's Vision™

Some. My stupid fritz box now too.

wonder if a UA override would be enough for pleasing Discourse, or if there is something else

so many websites using that horrible bloaty broken piece of junk for message boards

...including Mozilla :/

AOB

bau here too

tomman: I've just been using a quick-and-dirty bookmarklet to reset the overflow:hiddens of discourse

njsg: it's not just that - Discourse also disable all links, refuses loading the stylesheets, among other more subtle sabotages

and of course plastering the "Unfortunately your browser is more than 2 weeks old and therefore doesn't fit The Vision™"

next meeting is in 3 weeks time, rsx11m is day light saving changes happening before then?

tomman: uh, I haven't seen link breakage yet, that said I don't browse discourse sites that often

I have moved the Seamonkey 2.53 cross-reference to the project-agnostic xr.thereisonlyxul.org

Well I just removed Edge and now use Vivaldi for problematic sites. Almost suite like and I wonder if they copied some of the old Netscape menu layout.

IanN: wasn't US after EU at this time of the year?

the only Chromed thing in this house are the replacement legs on my chair~

IanN: I don't think so, Europe should be first getting off DST on October 29th

Historical and newer sources will follow.. again .. of course

so possibly the next one is the last one with both summer times

rsx11m: good, so we're fine for the next meeting :)

October 29th it seems.

okay thanks for your time today, next meeting in 3 weeks, same bat channel, same bat time

cu

US should switch November 4th, next meeting thereafter on the 12th

The meeting notes will probably late again :)

kinda got distracted and almost forgot to mention the xr stuff which is the legit reason I am here beyond normal Tobin reasons of course

the meeting after the next one either gets both on winter time, or gets the dreaded DST mix™

so, we are actually switching both sides for the same meeting, which simplifies things ;-)

- ah, then both on winter

Or just do it the Venezuelan Way: throw it at xx:30 :D

rsx11m: always good :)

IanN: thanks for holding the meeting and hope I was not too obnoxious

so we are meeting again in the winter right lol

CoordinatorTobin: well, first still in summer :-)

WG9s: when I am here.. don't worry so much :P

not about that lol

WG9s: never

njsg: technically it's fall here, I guess :-p

and technically frg is right XUL is dead but I ain't gonna let that stand either

rsx11m:

For DST I would love to do it the Egyptian way: Bury the inventors :)

wait.. i been.. inventing shit

frg_Away: that doesn't work for me can I be exempt cause I am not actually on the council?

ok, I'm falling asleep again

see you next time

tomman: can you link me an example of discourse mangling links?

njsg: let me find a Discourse board...

it's possible it's some site-specific behaviour or a newer "improvement"™

CoordinatorTobin. I doubt you invented the DST change so you should be ok.

links here work for me: discourse.llvm.org/t/16-0-6-release/71344

HEY all I need is time travel and I would have invented anything I want

frg_Away:

njsg: oh, looks like they stopped disabling links indeed

now it's just disabling most of the stylesheet and the overflow:hidden shenanigans

I guess I didn't end up at discourse pages often enough to notice links not working

but few months ago I found plenty of Discourse boards that would tie all <A> tags to a bogus onclick handler that would effectively disable them

CoordinatorTobin. Somewhere in the Mulitiverse you did.

meta.discourse.org/t/welcome-to-meta-discourse-org/1 the official instance no longer does that, interesting

also the Mozilla Discourse comes up fine

so I guess not all instances engage in extending Jeff's Vision™

Aren't there enough subtly different incarnations of me as there is.. do you reallllly think the multiverse needs to be involved frg_Away?

tomman: add this as a bookmarklet: javascript:(void(function(){s=document.createElement("style");st=document.createTextNode("html,*{overflow:unset!important;}");s.appendChild(st);document.head.appendChild(s);document.body.appendChild(s);}()))

(why am I adding it to head and body? good question. I did say this was quick-and-dirty!)

huh, a crash...

Hi there, I noticed only now libera killed matrix bridge ... and curios whether you discussed bridging it differently?

No plans and no knowledge/manpower.

I e.g. run our OSM local chapter and many other rooms via github.com/42wim/matterbridge and would be pretty easy for me link the rooms

it works via bot, so it's not direct like before, messages are prefixed

here's image how it looks from matrix side for our osm room - openstreetmap.cz/git/mahdi1234/docu…master/matterbridge/matterbridge.md

it doesn't require any special rights as bot is normal user, so if you'd be interested I can do it

Thanks. I am not even on matrix so something IanN_Away would need to chime in.

If anyone wants to know I downloaded SeaMonkey for amd64 Linux a few days ago. Both the included ChatZilla and Lightning plugins had to be disabled and then re-enabled before they would operate. And in both cases the "preferences" button in the add-on manager did nothing.

ChipMaster: new profile or did you have an old profile around?

ChipMaster: did you restart seamonkey between tries? Is this something you can still reproduce with a separate profile or install?

ChipMaster: what distro?

I'm running Devuan 5 (Deb12).

Seamonkey had been restarted several times.

Neither plugin showed. I got on here with Pidgin but then it occurred to me to try to disable/enable them and here I am in ChatZilla.

ChatZilla was not in the status bar nor window menu and did not respond to the CLI switch.

did they show as *enabled* in the add-on manager?

Yes. And punching the preferences button did nothing.

yeah, so far it's looking like the extension parts that would add these things did not get to run / be processed

Maybe I should say "poking" or "clicking" punching may give the wrong idea. :))

Some distros also bundle it separately and install it in a distro extension directory. This will fail then too.

now if the extension was enabled, this would mean something went wrong in initalization? or is there some other way an extension can end up enabled without working?

A note about my install technique: I un-tar'd to /opt, chown'd root:root the content and I run as a regular user.

frg_Away: I downloaded it from the site. I'm not using a distro bundle.

so you downloaded from the project website; Did you still have any other seamonkey installed (via package manager or something), or have you used seamonkey before on that system?

No. Fresh install. Brand new laptop!

ChipMaster yeah just be sure that you remove the old opt SeaMonkey directory before unpacking and make sure no old cZ only distro package is installed somewhere else.

And, yes, I downloaded it from the project website.

If you just unpack into opt without nuking the old one first the old distribution copy might still be there in distribution/extensions

frg_Away: as stated there IS no "old one". Completely virgin machine.

ChipMaster: if you start with a new profile, does the same happen again?

Let me sign off and give it a whirl...

In one of my test vms I managed to run SeaMonkey as root with the user profile. It did not go well either and I ended up with exactly the same error message.

It was never run as root.

ChipMaster: brand new laptop, OS install from scratch, no migration or copy from another machine?

(if so at least this should simplify things a lot for testing)

Yes I never knew what exactly happend there too but the profile was toast.

Alright give me a moment and I'll be back...

do you know if your distribution/system has some sort of additional "protection" layer like apparmor, selinux, ...?

I disabled those.

BRB

am I the only one having issues with latest SM and live.com ? even with latest WG9s build for 64-bit Windows and empty profile

OK guys. I could not dupe but I'm pretty sure I know why I had the problem. I originally test drove SeaMonkey with an install in my home folder. After I saw enough good I installed it system-wide as previously described. I did not delete my profile directory between moves. This probably had it _looking for the plugins in all the wrong places_.

Sorry. My blunder. Thanks for attempting to help.

But I still have font/scrollbar questions if anyone has answers. Is it possible to post pictures here? This is my first time taking more than a casual glance at IRC.

FYI: I AM using ChatZilla. ;-)

you can upload to a free service like postimages.org and paste the link in here.

I usually use ibb.co

ChipMaster: yeah, sharing images in IRC is usually done by sharing an address to the image over http[s] ^

ChipMaster: what UI toolkit is used by the other applications you use that look different from SeaMonkey? What Gtk+ theme have you selected or installed? Or is it the default one for the distro?

That illustrates the difference between SeaMonkey's UI and another GTK2 based app.

SeaMonkey is GTK+3

That explains the broken scroll bars.

But I read somewhere I could create a CSS file to override ride the font size. That's my main desire. I want some screen space back.

well, within gtk+3 you can create CSS files, yes, that's how themes apparently work in GTK+3. Now what you write on the file might change between minor versions of GTK+3...

ChipMaster for css stuff best to ask in mozillaZine. Frank Lion might be able to help.

Unfortunately my attempt with "userChrome.css" failed. Oh! That's right. I saw the example file in the seamonkey install directory.

ChipMaster: At least switching to modern will probably give you something more... scrollbarish? But modern really isn't for integration with the system UI look

Nothing "integrates" with my "system ui" look. And frankly I'm a "swiss army knife" kind of guy. I care about function over appearance everytime.

So how does one switch to "modern"?

ChipMaster: View->Apply Theme->SeaMonkey Modern

Wow! That's nice!

Still lost the page up/down features. But I've never figured out how to get those back in any GTK3 scenario.

what were these features?

I have a

-GtkScrollbar-has-backward-stepper: 1;

-GtkScrollbar-has-forward-stepper: 1;

in my .config/gtk-3.0 gtk.css

This is hilarious because "modern" is the default look: style-free ... bland. No scroll buttons. And yet modern gives style and buttons!

But CentOS 7 so might not work any longer.

fng_Away: me too! That gives the buttons back.

frg_Away: I was wondering why couldn't I find font settings for gtk+3 here. Forgot to check ~/.config...

ChipMaster: but the default SeaMonkey theme has colored icons, isn't the "modern" approach shades of gray?

njsg: Scroll bars since their inception had the ability to page up/down by clicking the "tray" above and below the "htumb", just like hitting [PG UP] [PG DN]

you mean the space between the up/down arrow button and the draggable location indicator? (sorry, I forgot the names for these components)

njsg: yes the icons are shades mostly shades of gray with minimal color highlights.

ChipMaster: what does it do, scroll to a location?

Well it is a bit blueish not 100% gray

yes, exactly. The GTK3 version seems to have done away with that feature preferring exact positioning, which could already be had by dragging the "thumb".

I've got this in my .config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini:

gtk-primary-button-warps-slider = false

preceded by this comment: # Click on scrollbar, false = move one screenful up/down, true = move to the point clicked.

Oh! That's promising!

what group is that in/

?

oh, [Settings]

missed that.

THX

where you can also add stuff like 'gtk-font-name = Thefontname 14'

(I have the size there, no idea if that really is working or if I just left it there...)

Thanks! I'll track down a reference on that file.

I'm trying to figure out where did I get information on the slider setting from

ChipMaster: ah, I got it probably from what is now docs.gtk.org/gtk3/class.Settings.html

THX!

had some trouble tracking it down because the address I have for that is developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkSettings.html which must have been changed at some point and the redirect is pointing at the wrong place

hopefully the content is equivalent, but here's the archived version web.archive.org/web/20190927161036/…me.org/gtk3/stable/GtkSettings.html

that said, there might have been changes, given that that's from 2019

gtk 4 default style is probably a white screen :)

I've already had enough with gtk+3's theming

breaking changes within gtk+3... I think at least some themes can't have a single version, they have to have several versions, for different minor versions of gtk+3

At least Qt has qt5ct...

Whoops! Gotta watch that ^Q now that all these windows are the same app, as opposed to the Thunderbird, FireFox, Pidgin trio.

Thanks guys for the info. I actually do have to run now anyways.

frg_Away: I am gonna bring qt back to what I am now calling the Universal XUL Platform (yes I know I will get shit for it idc) so once I have that working I am sure you can add it to your widget code or i can see if i can do it.. but if you want qt instead as a real option.. I and Son_Goku are your best bet

widget wise we should be fairly close still right frg_Away

it was only re-removed in 49 and last successfully compiled a few versions before that according to details of the last time it was removed

CaptainTobin we are basically at 60 with widget now. Some later stuff in too.

frg_Away: well luckily widget code is self contained so if i did help bring qt to you it SHOULDN'T interfear much more than configure and build files not source files

i been researching this for a while now

if i can do it is another question but it SHOULD be str8 forward

this still is largely using its xpfe design after all

Yes it is a bit like SpiderMonkey or I would probably jump out of a window and not even trying to update any longer :)

spidermonkey won't become a horriable bitch until about 78 i guess

but 68 will start adding difficulties

when i last looked into it for str8 uplift possibilities

I know when I get to the xpfe 1.8.1 codebase I will be able to almost instantly upgrade the JS engine to at LEAST 1.9.1

if not much further

and IF we were on str8 52 i am sure I could take the js engine almost str8 to 60 save for dom patches

and xpc

maybe later next year i can do an exaustive summery of all the changes made to UXP since 2018 and maybe we can figure out some way to make after-rewind-patching is done get you some enhancements ontop of what you are doing for mozilla maybe as a start in transitioning SeaMonkey to independant non-mozinfra development or infra designed to do the rewind strat

CaptainTobin Going from 56 to 61 was a treat. Problem is xpconnect mostly. I left out some stuff. Now on the compartment to realm changes in 62 and hope that the add-on id removals I didn't take don't break this.