13:56:04 <njsg> sqlite also impacts stored data
13:56:35 <njsg> wasn't the bundled cairo one of the reasons for the mozilla code base to drop support for Windows NT 5.1?
13:56:50 <njsg> (i.e. so that it could be upgraded)
13:58:21 <frg_Away> njsg icu dropped xp support.
13:58:50 <njsg> ah, I'm misremembering then
14:00:05 <tomman> and now I've just learned that ICU is one of the rare survivors of the ill-fated Taligent
14:06:37 <frg_Away> Updated my mac mini to 13.6 and 2.53.17.1 still runs :)
17:43:38 <CaptainTobin> so frg_Away wonder what the xpfreaks are gonna do now.. cause icu been adding bunch of radical api changes so.. hacking back in xp support or backporting shit is bound to be a pain in the ass
17:44:59 <CaptainTobin> _nuke is back as a member of MCP .. more or less .. I am sure he has more insight into large gap icu changes if he wasn't too stuck up to speak to anyone here
17:45:42 <njsg> are there any alternatives to ICU? what's the story and the field here?
17:46:39 <tomman> XPfreaks? Wait, no 98freaks?!
17:46:41 <CaptainTobin> as for more details on current events i am out of the loop but ICU as one of those diversity libs which serves real world needs but taken way too far and everyone uses it.. I'd say the alts are limited.
17:46:51 <tomman> I demand my Windows Me port of a modern™ browser!
17:46:53 <CaptainTobin> njsg:
17:47:24 <CaptainTobin> aside from rements of pre-icu mozintl
17:47:32 <tomman> https://blog.isosceles.com/the-webp-0day/ nice writeup on the WebP flaw
17:47:45 <tomman> spoilers: there is exactly ONE implementation of the format, and that's Google's libwebp
17:47:54 <tomman> thus everyone and his dog got the bug
17:48:07 <CaptainTobin> LOOK There is only one format we need on the web.. Portable Network Graphics
17:48:27 <njsg> I'll counter-argue with text/plain :-P
17:48:29 <CaptainTobin> WE just need to improve the FUCKING COMPRESSION CAUSE IT'S BEEN 20 YEARS BUT NOTHING ELSE NEEDS CHANGED
17:48:30 <tomman> butbutbut it's old and heavy! Bloggers and Google netops engineers said so!
17:48:45 <tomman> that's the whole point behind WebP, according to Google
17:48:51 <njsg> we also need compression algos that don't require powerful computers
17:48:52 <tomman> it compresses better, etc
17:49:00 <CaptainTobin> what as a one frame of vpx video?
17:49:03 <njsg> some of the newer formats for at least video seem to be very painful in that regard.
17:49:28 <tomman> they don't care, as long as they get to save billions on outgoing network traffic
17:49:44 <CaptainTobin> I JUST WANT PNG WITH BETTER COMPRESSION
17:50:00 <CaptainTobin> njsg: webp IS a video format
17:50:08 <tomman> but then suddenly 99% of your user base won't be able to open your newfangled PNG Max
17:50:13 <tomman> and we're back to square one
17:50:35 <CaptainTobin> wheeeb pee is a video format
17:50:41 <tomman> only Google has the ability to push their half-assed web formats, and of course they pick whatever crud their inhouse engineers came up with
17:50:44 <njsg> that's why HTML 3.x already had support for nested alternatives of embedded content, and why HTTP might offer support for that too. I think Gopher+ has views too.
17:51:18 <CaptainTobin> well WE GOT jpeg II Turbo Alpha Prime XP Edition now
17:51:22 <tomman> in fact the whole reason WebP became a thing was because Google force-pushed it through everyone's throats via Chrome, as they usually do
17:51:23 <njsg> but of course once you go with "oooh shiny it's the new cool" as a reason to pick it, it's hard to make that go with "support alternatives"
17:51:24 <CaptainTobin> least in Pale Moon
17:51:25 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:51:29 <CaptainTobin> I GUESS
17:51:49 <tomman> and now, there is also competing vomit like HEIF and... I've heard AV1 can encode static images too
17:52:02 <njsg> Hey, how's compression in OpenEXR? Can we use that?
17:52:24 <tomman> this is why JPEG XL stands a fat chance in hell of becoming widespread
17:52:38 <CaptainTobin> so I wrote a single subdir level mozbuild-like file copier and preprocessor.. which includes the mozilla pyhon c-style preprocessor
17:53:02 <njsg> how does JPEG XL compare to 2K? 2K is the one which can also do lossless, right?
17:53:09 <njsg> (or at least one of...)
17:53:11 <CaptainTobin> anyone interested in an actual production quality version?
17:53:13 <tomman> JPEG 2K also whent nowhere
17:53:35 <njsg> butbut it sounds y2k-ready!
17:53:52 <CaptainTobin> i really dislike jpegs
17:54:05 <CaptainTobin> I like.. png
17:54:05 <tomman> > JPEG XL is based on ideas from Google's PIK format and Cloudinary's FUIF format (which was in turn based on FLIF).[19]
17:54:09 <CaptainTobin> and apng
17:54:19 <tomman> Apparently XL can do both lossless and lossy compression
17:54:25 <CaptainTobin> yes
17:55:06 <tomman> > Support for JPEG XL in Chromium and Chrome web browsers was introduced for testing April 1, 2021[53] and removed on December 9, 2022 - with support removed in version 110.[54][55] The Chrome team cited a lack of interest from the ecosystem, insufficient improvements, and a wish to focus on improving existing formats as reasons for removing JPEG XL support.[53][56][54]
17:55:08 <tomman> HA!
17:55:10 <tomman> XL is DEAD
17:55:12 <CaptainTobin> and my fuckin pirated version of Paint Shop Pro XI from what.. 2005? can't fuckin read or write them so it is automatically an inferior format
17:55:34 <CaptainTobin> tomman: its been dead for a while
17:55:46 <tomman> enjoy your WebP and HEIF dog vomit :/
17:55:46 <CaptainTobin> it was dead JUST before Moonchild announced it
17:55:52 <CaptainTobin> that he had it
17:55:56 <tomman> it's dead because GOOGLE SAID SO
17:56:00 <CaptainTobin> yes it is
17:56:03 <tomman> there is no other reason
17:56:08 <CaptainTobin> because THAT is the WhatWG
17:56:13 <njsg> eh. so... you're saying Google discontinued a Google product?
17:56:13 <tomman> this is why Google must be dismantled
17:56:18 <tomman> alas, they're not Microsoft :/
17:56:19 <CaptainTobin> it's just google and google's proxies
17:56:37 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft pretty much owns the windows chromium source tree
17:56:46 <njsg> No, but perhaps we can get Microsoft to buy Google's phone and Android dealings to destroy them? :-P
17:56:47 <CaptainTobin> and THEY are diverging it not JUST for edge
17:56:55 <tomman> one part of me is sad because MS axed IE
17:57:05 <njsg> I'm still sad for the loss of IE6 yes
17:57:15 <tomman> I never thought I would ever say that, but the death of IE only helped to strength the Chrome monoculture
17:57:15 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft is gonna fork their windows chromium into a NEW Internet Explorer (not called that) and CRUSH chrome.. and FUCK everyone
17:57:20 <njsg> the saint protector of sites working with other browsers, as ironic as that may sound
17:57:21 <CaptainTobin> you watch tomman njsg
17:57:23 <tomman> nah, I doubt that
17:57:25 <CaptainTobin> they will TRY it
17:57:30 <tomman> Microsoft is dying outside big enterprise
17:57:38 <tomman> the future is Chromey, with a slice of Apple
17:57:44 <CaptainTobin> dude I been seeing some indications otherwise
17:57:46 <tomman> and I do not want to live in such a universe
17:57:58 <CaptainTobin> microsoft is not gonna accept second fiddle forever
17:58:06 <CaptainTobin> as linux and everyone else eats away at them
17:58:13 <tomman> then they should git gud again at cellphones
17:58:15 <CaptainTobin> not now that they have their internal utopia
17:58:32 <tomman> the desktop wars is long over, and noone cares anymore
17:58:36 <njsg> no question, forking chromium and attacking chrome, that'd be the Microsoft way. But Microsoft is trying the big shift to tablets and lease-based revenue.
17:58:43 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft is gonna rise again and it will be as if it was Mozilla with Microsoft's resources
17:58:48 <CaptainTobin> I am calling it dudes
17:58:49 <tomman> and MS screwed up their last chance at the cellphone revolution
17:59:13 <tomman> This is why they're busy rewriting everything to become webapps
17:59:25 <tomman> because they know that the future of Windows is dark tinted
17:59:25 <CaptainTobin> you are allowing the past to limit your ability to extrapolate the future rather than inform it
17:59:50 <tomman> anyway, the future will suck HARD
18:00:04 <CaptainTobin> yes.. and I am trying to figure out specifically HOW
18:00:14 <CaptainTobin> else I should just give up now
18:00:32 <njsg> Speaking of phones and MS, has new-Nokia (HMD?) finally recovered to their level pre-Microsoft? Last I checked reviews - perhaps that was years ago, though - the new software was regarded as something not as good as, say, old Series 40.
18:00:41 <tomman> nope
18:00:44 <tomman> that Nokia is long dead
18:00:55 <tomman> the new Nokia is just Foxconn crap with a Nokia label
18:01:34 <njsg> they're not getting the Keilaniemi building back either?
18:06:07 <tomman> "Nokia" (HMD) cellphones these days are nothing but reskinned Android, or KaiOS crud, or whatever basic UI they get from Unisoc or Mediatek for those dumbphones too weak for KaiOS
18:06:43 <tomman> although it looks like HMD finally dumped KaiOS since they have not released any new model in quite some time, especially since the launch of KaiOS 3.0 (which no OEM seems to want)
18:07:20 <tomman> doesn't help that all of your previous KaiOS apps (2.5 can run apps written for 1.0!) won't work on 3.0 and you need to rewrite them from scratch
18:08:03 <tomman> also noone is making money in that segment, and another of the largest KaiOS supporters (India's Jio) also bailed out off the platform too
18:14:35 <njsg> at least last I checked it was Mediatek, or do they get the software from more than one?
18:15:00 <njsg> I'd argue the best way to make money in this segment would be Nokia S40.
18:15:19 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin well even better now with icu4x: https://github.com/unicode-org/icu4x
18:37:31 <tomman> njsg: for the KaiOS line, it was largely Qualcomm
18:37:58 <tomman> for the non-KOS stuff, mostly Mediatek, not sure if they ever used Spreadtrum/Unisoc
18:43:14 <tomman> https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/31/jpeg_xl_axed_chrome/ ooooh, so MS DID helped Google kill XL
18:43:25 <tomman> "The decision follows long-running legal maneuvering. In February 2022, Microsoft received a patent over a core technology used in JPEG XL, over a year and a half since its previous rejection and despite protests from industry specialists."
18:43:52 <tomman> of course the USPTO ruining tech for everybody, as usual
19:32:31 <njsg> so this was a patent awarded to Microsoft with an existing implementation by Google?
23:44:57 <alinoge> Reddit's transcodes from jpg to WebM are a disaster.
23:45:15 <alinoge> Err, WebP
23:45:51 <alinoge> Google doesn't actually document anything, they throw out code over a wall. Then everyone grabs it.