12:23:00 <CaptainTobin> hi frg_Away
12:23:11 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin hi
12:23:30 <CaptainTobin> been exploring browser/ a bit in central
12:23:46 <CaptainTobin> you realize it is complete insanity
12:24:18 <CaptainTobin> like I see what they have done and a few pieces of UI that have only been transformed not redesigned is very very telling
12:24:35 <CaptainTobin> someone didn't do their job properly cause I have enough to resolve the differences
12:24:40 <CaptainTobin> to a basic extent
12:24:54 <CaptainTobin> it is insanity tho
12:25:32 <frg_Away> yes. Control flow during startup /shutdown is basically shot becuase they want to show something fast. And other things I dislike like the newtab
12:26:05 <CaptainTobin> what do you do when there is more radical redesign happening and it is more insane than ever?
12:27:36 <frg_Away> If we can't keep the source in central it is an academic question. So one step at a time.
12:27:47 <CaptainTobin> well
12:28:55 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin have Spidermonkey now at 61 which is stable but the backported regexp stuff dislike me. Looks like I need to go forward and see if I can align them more. gc crashes pretty fast.
12:29:30 <CaptainTobin> I still say jump spidermonkey str8 to 68
12:29:40 <CaptainTobin> and adjust xpc and jsapi calls accordingly
12:29:52 <CaptainTobin> but your replay strat would be broken
12:31:21 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: basically i do need to create a pseudo-sane firefox browser if for no other reason than it can be tested to see just how far mozilla has fallen or how insane xhyperxulml actually is beyond what the files and devtools tell me
12:32:22 <CaptainTobin> also how can waterfox people be so awesome to create late model bootstrap rdf and overlay capable polyfills but be too stupid to do the application forking correctly
12:32:38 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: people are weird
12:32:59 <CaptainTobin> and leave mozconfigs in the root of the sourcetree
12:33:05 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin basically a one man show. We are at least a few people show :)
12:33:07 <CaptainTobin> that's just being a dick
12:33:24 <CaptainTobin> commiting mozconfig to the root of the repo is being a dick
12:33:27 <CaptainTobin> and ALEX knows this
12:34:14 <CaptainTobin> ah frg_Away but the fruits of today's waterfox was not produced as a one man show but a corperate product of an adclick company
12:34:27 <CaptainTobin> the LAST real one man show waterfox was classic
12:35:03 <CaptainTobin> on... the base you are evolving successfully-ish-kinda-still-better-than-most-good-job
12:35:36 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin classic had at least a few contributors. I didn't see an ad code in the later one and I suspect that is why it is now a one man show again.
12:35:40 <CaptainTobin> least you are smart enough to realize insane problems require insane solutions see your dev train
12:35:41 <CaptainTobin> lol
12:35:47 <CaptainTobin> i can respect that so much
12:36:45 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: you know I am only learning about current day gecko so i can embed it in xpfe for no reason than it will seriously break some people's minds thinking about it
12:37:04 <frg_Away> well just pushed l10n to our hg and git masters so this is sane again.
12:38:38 <CaptainTobin> I wish I could do l10n for people but it is such a large job tho have they figured out how to just default back to en-US when strings aren't found yet?
12:39:30 <CaptainTobin> if I EVER design a string system it will have FALLBACK DEFAULT as english strings
12:40:37 <CaptainTobin> if i knew how to code it i'd solve it in xul by telling it if it is chrome priv then no entity return entity name as string
12:41:08 <frg_Away> The merge at lest is better now but I think the fallback is now only implemented in Fluid. But this is sooo complicated again. Designed to fly to the moon again when you just need strings. Overengineered imho.
12:41:13 <CaptainTobin> if not desired explicitly chrome manifest flag strictentitys=true
12:42:32 <CaptainTobin> we need a new engine designed with xpfe/toolkit and gecko capabilities but webkit's orginal k-cleanness
12:42:56 <CaptainTobin> maybe one day
12:42:59 <CaptainTobin> or maybe servo
12:43:02 <CaptainTobin> lol
12:43:43 <CaptainTobin> it would be almost trivial to just embed chromium inside of gecko 1.8.1 (after i get gcc building updated)
12:43:49 <CaptainTobin> and just do it that way
12:44:33 <CaptainTobin> someone needs to fork thunderbird's frontend before they completely and finally fuck it up be radically diverging from the communicator orginal mailnews structure
12:44:50 <CaptainTobin> more than firefox ui aesthteic casing already did at our levels
12:44:51 <frg_Away> servo is dead. And if it is all rust I leave it to others. Ok with doing backports but I really dislike this language.
12:44:59 <CaptainTobin> servo is dead as far as mozilla
12:45:04 <CaptainTobin> but others are interested again
12:46:51 <CaptainTobin> yeah you really can't do much with mozilla now not with much that came before it.. I mean it is still completely possible to have a non-firefox mozilla application but you'd have to use dev history of conversions and your own experience and increasingly fleeting documentation to work out just what they have done and when and how
12:47:03 <CaptainTobin> and the shitty thing of it is
12:47:46 <CaptainTobin> right now would be the perfect time to jump back on because there are signs of more shit to come and commonalities for compairson are dwinding
12:48:57 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: you do realize the moment that thunderbird gets mailnews core and fe to match firefox specs thunderbird will just become a webextension for firefox
12:48:58 <CaptainTobin> right
12:49:06 <CaptainTobin> or at least there is a STRONG likelyhood of it
12:53:34 <frg_Away> webextensions will never be able to do this. A pwa maybe but Firefox does not support them. And I block them in Edge. The last thing I need is a web app having access to local reources by design. Of course all safe and sandboxed... It is this way already with classic extensions but I can live with this.
12:54:49 <CaptainTobin> first two things to do in a firefox of today.. make the tabs that are tabs look like tabs again and remove all the bundled webextension garbage they added in as experiments
12:55:09 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: webextension != chrome extension
12:55:18 <CaptainTobin> it just IS chrome extension + mozextras
12:55:33 <CaptainTobin> that was the selling point
12:56:11 <CaptainTobin> https://xr.binaryoutcast.com/mozilla-central/source/browser/extensions/
12:58:25 <CaptainTobin> or they will make it a different format
12:58:35 <frg_Away> not much extras. They use experiment apis but are still limited.
12:58:39 <CaptainTobin> call it an applet like i was gonna do with an appcore
12:58:58 <CaptainTobin> their old system add-ons were just xul extensions but for thee not for me
12:59:15 <CaptainTobin> they could add that kinda shit back different extension different manifest diffrent trigger
12:59:18 <CaptainTobin> do it that way
12:59:22 <CaptainTobin> matches gmp strat
12:59:35 <frg_Away> That is why the devtools client is still built-in
12:59:45 <CaptainTobin> indeed
13:00:11 <CaptainTobin> they just HAVE to decide to add more ways and then there are.. more ways
13:00:16 <CaptainTobin> IF is the question
13:01:11 <CaptainTobin> with all the ui garbage opera and edge are doing
13:01:28 <CaptainTobin> mozilla MAY have to open up a more expanded "browser extension" form of webex tech
13:01:32 <CaptainTobin> to keep up
13:01:38 <CaptainTobin> cause they can't internally
13:01:51 <CaptainTobin> and webex is still MOSTLY just chrome's shit
13:01:56 <CaptainTobin> not addressing mozshit
13:03:59 <CaptainTobin> well luckily you log this channel and there are a few assimilated mozis here so they are now aware that is an option they can pursue and take credit for.. my gift i guess lol
13:04:11 <CaptainTobin> if kairo were smart he'd push it
13:04:16 <CaptainTobin> but he is matrix so
13:04:19 <CaptainTobin> not here so not smart
13:04:21 <CaptainTobin> anymore
13:04:58 <CaptainTobin> hi job how's the college going?
13:05:44 <job> pretty fine so far, classes haven't really started yet despite the first day supposedly being last Tuesday
13:06:20 <job> im tired from the volunteer effort yesterday to get a public elementary school nearby ready for their own first day of classes
13:06:24 <job> lol
13:07:22 <CaptainTobin> that's nice you are involved in more than what's left of the internet
13:07:32 <CaptainTobin> I might consider it one day
13:07:37 <CaptainTobin> ... one day
13:09:04 <job> Touhou is literally the only thing keeping me sane here in the internet :P
13:10:40 <CaptainTobin> job: sanity is an elusive quality
13:11:01 <tomman> job: at least Cirno doesn't make web browsers... YET
13:11:40 <tomman> (also eventually ZUN's liver will force him to quit beer... and making new games under the influence!)
13:12:28 <job> tomman: Apparently she wrote some :P https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/web_browsers/index.html
13:12:57 <job> Cirno may be an idiot, but she's not batshit insane ;)
13:13:03 <tomman> true~
13:13:18 <tomman> that's the job of Clownpiece
15:05:57 <CaptainTobin> so how do you feel about sys.mjs
15:06:01 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away:
15:09:44 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin Neutral. Seem they want to put language features in for which js was never designed. But it is useful so if it works and we are not seeing the 6th or 7th iteration of ChromeUtils.import so it be. Supporting it will probably not easy with xpconnecxt still functional. Not sure.
15:11:59 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: so they went from Components.import to ChromeUtils.import to es6 modules but not true ones sorda still half-jsms.. except now i no longer know what symbol it is exporting
15:12:08 <CaptainTobin> also xref doesn't index mjs yet
15:12:15 <CaptainTobin> nor treat xhtml as xul
15:12:23 <CaptainTobin> best see if i can rememdy that
15:12:29 <CaptainTobin> soonish
15:12:48 <CaptainTobin> xhtml useage in our levels also is for including html namespace shit so it will be fine anyway
15:13:46 <frg_Away> You forgot the 3 or 4 variants of ChromeUtils import :)
15:14:15 <CaptainTobin> sorry I am still PRE-ChromeUtils so not forgot just don't know and might not care lol
15:15:04 <CaptainTobin> half the about pages rely on bubbling up to the chrome window level
15:15:11 <CaptainTobin> that is exceedingly conserning frg_Away
15:16:06 <CaptainTobin> all started with the UI tour
15:16:15 <CaptainTobin> i KNEW that was gonna be abused horribly once possible
15:16:49 <CaptainTobin> it breaks the browser element layer and alows inner to affect outter
15:16:55 <CaptainTobin> and that scares the fuck out of me
15:17:02 <CaptainTobin> if that gets back into normal user hands
15:17:14 <CaptainTobin> or an exploit allows it to happen from the web
15:17:36 <CaptainTobin> it is like mozilla is trying to turn xhtml into remote xul frg_Away
15:20:24 <frg_Away> Only implemented the 60 level because compativle with Components.import
18:41:07 <therube> just noting (not concerned) https://pcsx2.net/ loads as a "black page" in SeaMonkey
18:47:16 <tomman> therube: can confirm here
18:47:26 <tomman> "SyntaxError: missing : after property id main.d9781a86.js:2:206878"
18:48:24 <tomman> also some CSS visibility:hidden script shenanigans
20:16:03 <jonadab> therube: It sends wget a 403 error.
20:16:21 <jonadab> So clearly somebody is _messing around_
20:16:42 <jonadab> (messing around with what content different browsers receive, I mean)
20:18:13 <therube> never thought to try wget.  maybe they're just blocking it?
20:18:16 <jonadab> curl gets a custom Cloudflare block page.
20:18:49 <jonadab> So yeah, the site is deliberately sending different content to different browsers for some reason.
20:19:04 <tomman> in the meanwhile, PCSX2 is still a mess to compile :/
20:19:06 <jonadab> So it almost certainly will only send the real content to the two or three specific browsers that the site authors care about.
20:19:21 <tomman> but that's fine, let's also bring that mess to our public website
20:20:18 <jonadab> I would file this under some combination of Sturgeon's Law and "There are more websites in the world than there are people, so if a particular website isn't usable, you can find another one."
21:45:52 <IsambardPrince> I was looking around and openSUSE seems to have a port for everything I use on ARM, including SeaMonkey.
21:46:00 <IsambardPrince> Is anyone actually using this on a Pi?
21:46:26 <IsambardPrince> I know Firefox is horribly broken on PowerPC. I have no familiarity with non-x86 platforms.
21:54:29 <njsg> jonadab: that's cloudflare's valuable protection, I've seen sites where it's looking at the TLS interaction too...
21:55:38 <tomman> "Clownflare is totally not a MITM, no sir, they're a Valuable Internet Partner"
21:56:23 <njsg> jonadab: in this case, changing UA in curl is enough, so it possibly isn't even looking at TLS?
22:05:33 <IsambardPrince> 11% of all Web sites use them. It's getting to be quite annoying as a user of NoScript and a non-US VPN server.
22:06:15 <IsambardPrince> So are they pissed off by SeaMonkey in the UA string?
22:18:01 <njsg> who knows (no really, I think this can have different settings, and it can also be automagic)
22:18:13 <njsg> I can say "Firefox" suffices here