00:05:26 <tomman> "security reasons", like... which ones?
03:19:17 <IsambardPrince> [8/20/23 19:02] <tomman> "security reasons", like... which ones?
03:19:22 <IsambardPrince> Give me a second.
03:20:02 <IsambardPrince> https://www.gadgetsnow.com/tech-news/tenable-ceo-to-microsoft-the-truth-is-even-worse-than-you-think/articleshow/102409213.cms
03:20:45 <IsambardPrince> About Azure security holes. Microsoft doesn't give a shit even though banks and governments are using this and are exposing private personal information on people and classified documents and stuff.
03:21:08 <IsambardPrince> They don't consider it important as long as it's not widely known. They don't fix it until someone publicly shames them.
03:21:11 <tomman> > Microsoft’s lack of transparency applies to breaches, irresponsible security practices and vulnerabilities, all of which expose their customers to risks they are deliberately kept in the dark about.
03:21:13 <IsambardPrince> They are not a security company.
03:21:19 <tomman> well, that's what happens with companies the size of Microsoft
03:21:31 <tomman> they're too big for their own good
03:21:34 <tomman> that makes them slow and useless
03:21:48 <tomman> and the same crap is happening to competitors like Google
03:21:53 <IsambardPrince> It would be better to do any computing locally if at all possible.
03:22:06 <IsambardPrince> Or with any "Cloud" provider other than Microsoft if you absolutely must.
03:22:14 <tomman> sadly many corporations see "computers" as a expense
03:22:20 <tomman> eh, the competition is bad too
03:22:22 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft has never proven that they can write anything competently.
03:22:27 <tomman> Google is terrible, Oracle is even worse
03:22:33 <tomman> and do you want to give more money to Amazon?!
03:23:04 <tomman> the Four Big Clouds™ are terrible in their own wretched ways
03:23:27 <IsambardPrince> Like I said, if you're thinking about the "Cloud" then the answer is "probably not". You should find some way not to do business with any of them, but especially Microsoft.
03:23:36 <IsambardPrince> They had this man working at Azure.
03:23:37 <tomman> tell that to CxOs
03:23:39 <IsambardPrince> Give me a moment.
03:24:04 <tomman> the ones that call the shots at most corporations are the most tech illiterate ones, usually
03:24:07 <IsambardPrince> https://baronhk.wordpress.com/tag/joseph-cantrell/
03:24:21 <IsambardPrince> You're going to descend into the mind of a Nazi who was high on about everything who stabbed a coworker.
03:24:28 <IsambardPrince> Then the media helped Microsoft cover it up.
03:24:33 <tomman> ...let's not go there
03:25:14 <IsambardPrince> I wrote a long series about him until I ran out of material, which he kindly provided because of a very long text file on his public web site.
03:25:15 <tomman> also, I have my reasons to distrust security researchers and companies, but this is not the place to discuss that either
03:25:26 <IsambardPrince> Also, he's in prison now waiting his trial on Second Degree Murder.
03:25:45 <IsambardPrince> But he worked at Azure and he said nobody there knew what they were doing and they were posting questions on Stack Exchange.
03:25:52 <IsambardPrince> I do not thing Google is _that_ bad.
03:26:20 <tomman> for me it's not bad, it's beyond evil
03:26:43 <IsambardPrince> 150 other employers already said they wouldn't hire him or never returned calls or emails before Microsoft got him through a "neurodivergent hiring program".
03:26:46 <IsambardPrince> :)
03:26:49 <tomman> right now, for me, Google is FAR worse than Microsoft
03:26:59 <tomman> but again, not the place to argue that
03:27:19 <IsambardPrince> I've seen plenty of the sausage making process at Microsoft to know not to go near anything from them.
03:28:00 <IsambardPrince> I was somewhat taken aback by SeaMonkey and "Azure Build Server".
03:28:26 <IsambardPrince> I guess I'm glad I use the RPMs. Who knows what could be thrown in at compile time on the "Clown computer".
03:29:34 <tomman> In any case, I do not want to learn about "clown computing" either, even if that puts me at a disadvantage in the work market
03:29:46 <tomman> but then, the entire IT industry has gone to hell
03:29:52 <IsambardPrince> I believe this is partially what reproducible build data is supposed to solve.
03:30:15 <tomman> but then building things from source is getting insane these days too
03:30:34 <IsambardPrince> I probably don't even want to know. Like, with this rust garbage....
03:30:36 <tomman> for example we went from "install these dependencies and run our buildscripts"
03:30:53 <IsambardPrince> 10 years ago you could just run firefox code through gcc on your laptop and out comes a web browser.
03:30:54 <tomman> to "half of our repo is git submodules, how many copies of the SDL2 sourcetree do you want?"
03:30:58 <IsambardPrince> Probably not so fast now.
03:31:37 <tomman> One type of applications I build routinely from source is game console emulators
03:31:45 <tomman> they have gone full insane with the git submodule thing
03:32:25 <tomman> including complete repos of large libraries with thousands of commits as dependencies instead of just "hey, ensure you have libfoo version blah++ installed"
03:33:01 <tomman> soon they will include Mesa, Wayland, and the entire Linux kernel as a submodule, I kid you not :D
03:33:30 <tomman> basically reinventing the package manager in the worst possible way
03:33:40 <tomman> not even Maven is *that* braindamaged
06:35:33 <IsambardPrince> I think booting SeaMonkey off Bugzilla was petty. Maybe Mozilla plans to shut off Bugzilla and finish moving to Github?
06:35:54 <IsambardPrince> One last relic. Kills off NNTP, MozNet, now the rest of their own stuff?
06:36:56 <IsambardPrince> [8/20/23 22:29] <tomman> including complete repos of large libraries with thousands of commits as dependencies instead of just "hey, ensure you have libfoo version blah++ installed"
06:37:13 <IsambardPrince> You probably mean people who didn't want to learn git, so they went to Microsoft for hosting.
06:37:38 <IsambardPrince> When I forked the Linux kernel I used a local repo on my laptop.
06:38:17 <IsambardPrince> I didn't want to give anyone else binaries because then I'd have to release source code and they'd start filing issues against it, and it was something I was only doing for my computers.
09:22:55 <njsg> IsambardPrince: public shame, Microsoft? Have they already fixed the "true is false" (or was it "false is true") in VBA? :-P
09:26:45 <njsg> Microsoft... also has people who can write and program and design, but at the same time seems to have had a culture that does not prioritize doing things so well when faced with usual business workflows. Doesn't blow up so visibly as far as they don't send their reps in suits to double-down about their not-100%-compatible Korn Shell being 100% compatible... in front of David Korn.
09:30:45 <njsg> (... well, to be fair I have no idea if the MS rep was actually wearing a suit.)
09:36:38 <frg_Away> lsmbardPrince For what it is worth we are still on Bugzilla. We are trying to work out a new agreement.
09:43:01 <frg_Away> As for the great Microsoft vs. the world discussion. It is how big corporations work. The only thing I find sad is that 99% of the users don't care about anything. They can change it by not using services or buying from them. The other things I dislike is that computing goes in the direction of dumbing everything down. This goes for free software too. Just look at gnome. A white sheet of...
09:43:02 <frg_Away> ...paper is more usable than the gnome desktop :) Not much customization left.
09:48:35 <frg_Away> And for discontinuing support for older OS. If you look at the stuff taken out from Gecko it is not that much. For macOS it is a bit harder but still manageable. Windos apis didn't change much after Vista. An api added there and a parameter changed there imho. Lately with Windows 11 it seems just chaotic and uncoordinated but nothing you really need to support unless you are a game developer...
09:48:37 <frg_Away> ...or a Windows shill imho. And Windows 8.1 in the form of server 2012 R2 is still supported for a few years. It is funny that Internet Explorer 11 is still updated for both Server 2008 R2 and 2012 R2 despite declared dead.
10:29:31 <IsambardPrince> IE 11 is still possible to launch as a browser in Windows 11.
10:29:42 <IsambardPrince> It's not gone. It's just hidden with a redirect to Edge.
10:30:24 <IsambardPrince> About the only thing they do, I think, is keep the TLS stuff updated enough to connect to servers, and fix CVEs.
18:21:57 <e4c9cdc1> hi
18:22:27 <e4c9cdc1> why seamonkey removed from archlinux repo?
18:36:49 <IanN_Away> we have no influence over what distos do
18:47:22 <WG9s> actually this is usually because no one is willing to do the support of the package.
19:37:46 <njsg> best entity to ask would be the distro
20:43:39 <IsambardPrince> I notice SeaMonkey still uses .tar.bz2
20:43:56 <tomman> anything wrong with that?
20:44:04 <IsambardPrince> It seems there's probably a better compression format by now if you're looking to save a little on download costs.
20:44:37 <tomman> I guess everybody and his dog gone with .xz years ago
20:52:04 <IsambardPrince> For archival? Yes.
20:52:19 <IsambardPrince> For stuff done on-the-fly? ZStd usually.
20:52:50 <IsambardPrince> When the computer is constantly at it, to store things and read them back in real time, ZStd level 1 is pretty hard to beat.
20:54:01 <IsambardPrince> The performance continues to be optimized.
20:54:11 <IsambardPrince> So any older benchmarks you see are likely already outdated.
21:55:42 <njsg> download or unpacking?
21:56:52 <tomman> I'm not sure of bandwidth costs for the SeaMonkey crew, but for end users it may not matter if you're on 100Mbit fiber
21:56:53 <njsg> at least I think bzip2 was a bit expensive space or time-wise (or both?) for decompression
21:57:09 <tomman> it could matter a bit if you're on 3Mbit DSL, but then those links forge patience
21:57:45 <njsg> (space, meaning resources, as in space complexity, so: memory)
21:57:46 <tomman> in any case that would be interesting material for some research
22:55:35 <IsambardPrince> Then there's the Wiki mess on mozilla's site.
22:55:40 <IsambardPrince> A lot of that is wikirot anyway.