01:58:50 <IsambardPrince> https://baronhk.wordpress.com/2023/08/03/a-revised-faq-for-mozilla-firefox-users-on-windows-7-8-and-8-1-outlining-why-mozilla-abandons-them/
02:46:18 <tomman> cool, so will Mozilla be buying new computers for the hundred millions still stuck at 7 because their hardware can't genuinely run anything later?
02:46:53 <tomman> (and nope, "move to Linux" is not always the answer, especially for the tech-illiterate often behind those old machines)
02:47:14 <tomman> But then, the entire IT industry has never cared, so meh
02:47:52 <tomman> "If you’re on an unsupported version of Windows, you’re in even more danger than a supported version of Windows, which itself is still quite susceptible to malware infestations."
02:48:10 <tomman> time to move to Windows Me, since today's malware only works on modern Windows versions :D
02:48:40 <tomman> "It’s very sad that Mozilla doesn’t even mention Linux, which will almost certainly be acceptably fast, maybe even faster than your unsupported version of Windows."
02:48:45 <tomman> NO IT'S NOT!
02:49:00 <tomman> modern Linux distros simply run awful on those ancient machines
02:49:08 <tomman> just like modern Windows versions
02:49:37 <tomman> > Many computers can run for more than a decade and a half with Linux and still browse the Web with the latest software. Maybe not so pleasant at the end, but it can be done.
02:49:42 <tomman> oh, he does recognize that
02:53:07 <IsambardPrince> [Wednesday 9:44:08pm]	tomman	(and nope, "move to Linux" is not always the answer, especially for the tech-illiterate often behind those old machines)
02:53:24 <IsambardPrince> Goodwill sells old computers that can't run Windows anymore for like $20 and they run Linux Mint fine.
02:53:57 <IsambardPrince> They preload them with Linux because they don't want to add $50 to the machine for a Windows Refurbishment license.
02:54:14 <IsambardPrince> Which would basically make it a $70 old laptop when it was only $20 for the hardware.
02:54:14 <tomman> noone sells computers for $20 in Venezuela, tho... and old Core 2 Duo boxes (still widely in use here) have lousy performance with modern Linux DEs
02:54:39 <tomman> and I say this a a full-time Debian user on hardware between 2001 and 2012
02:54:47 <IsambardPrince> For $20 even if you have to keep it plugged into the wall it's a good deal.
02:54:59 <IsambardPrince> And quite often you can find a replacement battery for not that much money.
02:55:09 <tomman> software bloat is a big problem all across the industry, Linux included
02:55:29 <IsambardPrince> Core 2 Duo can probably handle Wayland if you use that Sway thing or whatever it's called.
02:55:40 <tomman> MATE went from being snappy on old Pentium 4 laptops in Debian 8 to... being unusable on Debian 9 :/
02:55:43 <IsambardPrince> But at that point you're talking hardcore geek stuff again.
02:55:56 <IsambardPrince> [Wednesday 9:52:56pm]	tomman	MATE went from being snappy on old Pentium 4 laptops in Debian 8 to... being unusable on Debian 9 😟
02:55:59 <IsambardPrince> GTK 3 bloat?
02:56:05 <tomman> THAT'S MY POINT!
02:56:19 <IsambardPrince> They're going to have to swallow GTK 4 at some point.
02:56:22 <IsambardPrince> Have fun with that.
02:56:41 <IsambardPrince> Not as bad as Windows VISTA 11 though.
02:56:57 <IsambardPrince> But still, I mean, why add bloat for another layer of paint and wizmos.
02:57:00 <tomman> I just moved my Inspiron 6400 (Core 2 Duo T7200) to Trinity, but then I don't expect my auntie to use Trinity
02:57:27 <tomman> also, I'm afraid I'll be unable to afford a new PC 'till the day I die, it seems
02:57:35 <IsambardPrince> I use GNOME but my OLDEST computer is a Core i7-6560U.
02:57:44 <tomman> my NEWEST machine is a i5-2450M
02:57:45 <IsambardPrince> And that's STILL massive overkill for GNOME 43.
02:57:47 <tomman> bought in 2012
02:57:58 <tomman> back when hyperinflation wasn't a thing yet
02:57:59 <tomman> here
02:58:33 <IsambardPrince> The US has been experiencing "higher than usual inflation" but it's not has bad as Venezuela by a long shot.
02:58:45 <tomman> of course Silly Valley and the folks at Redmond have zero empathy towards those living in... parts away from California/Seattle
02:58:53 <IsambardPrince> I think you'd have to get into the triple digits for a while.
02:59:13 <IsambardPrince> People are saying hyperinflation here because it's usually about 2-3% and has been running 6-7%.
02:59:27 <tomman> our central bank says "hold my beer"
02:59:32 <IsambardPrince> It's become "pesky" by the standards of a normal country.
02:59:47 <tomman> we just went from FIVE digits hyperinflation
03:00:06 <tomman> and this year we're going to close with near-triple digits again
03:00:12 <IsambardPrince> Yeah, and I mean, it's a really stupid gripe in the US for many people.
03:00:37 <IsambardPrince> If you have savings, park them in a CD or something and you undo like 95% of the accumulating effects of inflation with bank interest right now.
03:00:55 <IsambardPrince> That way you don't have "rotting cash".
03:01:05 <tomman> Anyway, my point is that we should ban the Valley from using new tech
03:01:11 <tomman> maybe then they will learn to optimize
03:01:19 <tomman> a Core 2 Duo has waaaaaaaaaaaay more power than a Cray-1
03:01:23 <IsambardPrince> I don't even like software bloat, personally.
03:02:02 <tomman> a 386SX-40 running Windows 95 on 6MB RAM was just starved, but still responsive
03:02:08 <IsambardPrince> If there's jank on a Core i7 12th generation in Windows 11 (and there is) and that's the latest processor, you have a very bad problem with Windows.
03:02:22 <tomman> a Ivy Bridge running Windows 10 on spinny rust and 4GB RAM is just pathetic in comparison
03:02:26 <IsambardPrince> Because you take a 7 year old laptop and put Linux on it and there's no observable jank.
03:02:53 <IsambardPrince> But you take the newest most expensive PC laptop and Windows 11 and there's jank?
03:03:18 <tomman> well, maybe if you're using Ryzen's fTPM RNG :P
03:03:39 <IsambardPrince> There's too many chokepoints in Windows where it doesn't matter what hardware you throw at it. It's so hideously fat and impossible to optimize that the hardware doesn't even always matter.
03:04:25 <tomman> maybe MS should pull a Intel and revive the XP kernel
03:05:09 <tomman> I mean, Intel had to do exactly THAT (go back to P6 to make the highly successful Core line, instead of continuing with the trainwreck of Netburst which was supposedly "the future")
04:14:50 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft seemed to have some sort of weak tea variant of compressed RAM in Windows.
04:15:09 <IsambardPrince> It seemed in Windows 10 to be more comparable to ZSwap than ZRam on Linux.
04:15:30 <IsambardPrince> It used a really crappy and slow compression scheme on Windows that took too many CPU cycles.
04:15:55 <IsambardPrince> I don't think they use ZStandard compression anywhere. It's hard to beat the performance of ZStd level 1.
04:16:31 <IsambardPrince> Not the absolute best compression, but that's not really what your goal should be with compressed RAM. If you're going to take several times the CPU cycles to get 2-3% more compression, you don't want to do that.
04:20:40 <IsambardPrince> tomman	I mean, Intel had to do exactly THAT (go back to P6 to make the highly successful Core line, instead of continuing with the trainwreck of Netburst which was supposedly "the future")
04:20:50 <IsambardPrince> Yes, but Intel could afford a wrong turn like that at the time.
04:20:58 <IsambardPrince> Bailout Biden isn't always going to be there for them.
04:21:18 <IsambardPrince> He wrecked their China business and AMD's too, and China laughed and just started using more ARM and MIPS.
04:41:16 <IsambardPrince> Tor Browser finally got the monthly Mozilla Security rollup.
04:41:21 <IsambardPrince> This month was a bad one.
17:57:01 <therube> i've not looked to see if we've "released" yet, but just noting that a Check for Updates... is not seeing .17, currently.
17:57:14 <therube> I do see .17 release notes are online
19:06:39 <frg_Away> therube Not sure if ewong has activated updates yet.
23:45:32 <ewong> No, I haven't activated the updates..  sorry..