WG9s: IanN_Away: SeaMonkey 2.53.18b1pre 20230708211500 disables all add-ons including ChatZilla. Help→Restart with Add-ons (not) disabled changes nothing. I've gone back to build ID 20230708110002 which has them.

tonymec|away Missing line/bad rebase. Should be ok tomorrow again.

frg_Away: Next time I see a new build I'll try it; but I'll keep yesterday's "good" tar.bz2 just in case.

tonymec|away was offline for most of the day yesterday. Internet provider had a major outage here in the north.

frg_Away: :-(

frg_Away: weather related

?

no framstam just back to the single pound spelled out copy linked to a matrix room.. links are on the front page.. not gonna link it here

IanN_Away not sure what caused the outage. Building housing a hub for northern Germany had an electricity failure. Maybe someone cut a cable ? :)

sup?

CaptainTobin hi

You are on early reletive to useal.. doing a status meeting later?

yes also woke up earlier. Work tomorrow so need to adapt :)

Need to do the last weeting notes too. Watned to do it yesterday but internet took a coffee break.

I am assisting someone with a demo "webapp" actually using my code to demostrate openshift container tech specifically how it isn't JUST for the off-the-shelf packages.. I am gonna use selene code as the basis the code that runs the Pale Moon Developer Site .. vs my current day php standards

as a lifecycle demo

so that is nifty

gives me a good external reason to get a bunch of shit accomplished so really helping my friend helps me way more than one might think and that is exactly what I could use right now

besides, it ain't like much has happened in the year and a half since my last update of phoebus and decendant code updates .. I guess after all this time my systems have really proven their worth.. as they are able to stand up without updates or development or any kind of conserning care about unfinished but solid as hell systems I developed not forked but created.

CaptainTobin Do you think if this bug is included it makes a dent with old add-ons? Bug 1389510

Doing it would make followup js patches apply cleaner and faster.

stand by

have to see when it was introduced

frg_Away: that has been something from back to netscape 6.. at least mozilla 0.9.4.1

honestly given how little code is removed just to break a core feature in xpc i dunno what benefit it really is.. is there a reason you would want to take it in dude?

uhh

accept the patch.

I would say FOR NOW.. Convert the consumers but leave the code in place until you bump up against it in a way that justifies its removal

unless you wanna do a random sampling from caa

and SEE how much it is used

I might take it out and let it bake a bit. This code has a hugs followup chain with property changes. Bug 1404310. and lots of others. So far I managed but took me hours of rebasing already.

true

dude i love this 1.8.1 code well the non-toolkit parts so much more modular

i'd check if domi needs it lol

cause if so that at least to me would be unacceptable

cause domi is life

frg_Away: is dom inspector dead here?

Not in 2.53 but we have broken it a bit.

shame on you

i mean mozilla killed venkman long ago

you MUST keep DOMi alive!

heh

unintentional. IanN_Away mentioned some css breakage.. Just didnÄt have to time to look into it. Overall it still works.

I am gonna just bake it back in

well the devtools debugger is quite ok but the css stuff is blarg...

btw if i take an xpfe codebase and make it linux only then the xp part would no longer apply correct? so then what do I say xpfe means when it is on linux only?

Obvious

The eXPerence Front-end

I have never liked the orion or the firebug based devtools

least yours aren't jetpack anymore RIGHT

tell me you ported THAT goodness at last right?

seems my reduced patch for that intl shit i did .. wasn't everything it HELPED but didn't solve everything and it is gonna get deep

addon-sdk is still in but the devtools no longer use it. I would love to get rid of the sdk but... Already breaking too much older stuff.

and if MCP releases in this condition they are gonna be so fucked.. I just had to give up and revert aura back so i could work

BTW in typical BinOC (and maybe Portal's Aperture) style.. I have come up with an excessively grandious name for what I intend to use mozilla and kde code to do.. The Binary Outcast Desktop Environment and Software Collection.. BinOC/DESC!

and just by doing that I no longer have to justify to my self the pursuit of projects because if it fits within THOSE extremely wide bounds it is relevant activity

shit.. a lot of people have a talent for manipulating me.. figured i'd give it a shot

i think more tho about this bug

it cites more emphasis on npapi's internal useage

more than add-ons useage

maybe we cna use some basic logic to narrow it down some

i got a BETTER idea

your bake-in idea but just start downloading shit that exists and functions today off atbn

if almost nothing busts.. keep it gone or revert it based on what is actually on atbn and worked before you removed it

pick extensions that modify content, the popular ones, and any web dev-y ones

as your sample selection

how does that sound to give you the BEST idea of what you should do about this bug

I checked prefbar NoScript and uBlock. Not affected I think.

and at the very least you can say to anyone who has an issue with it that you did this this and that and decided this was the best course given the factors yadda yadda but if you want to bring the feature back yadda get involved etc

i mean that seems to work out best unless you wanna just ditch it all and explore xpfe and evolve it differently

lol

greasemonkey might need to be checked too. If this is not affected probably nothing halfway mainstream is.

I mean at the end of the day this is all best effort anyway and I have always believed that even if the effort might fall somewhat short true effort can be appreciated never the less. Tho experience hasn't really agreed with that.. I still want to believe that can be the case.

still.. never forget a relative retard like my self did over 8 years turn a minor rebuild into a mini-mozilla.. so the bar is rather low as it is .. tho if you aren't careful you might turn your mini-mozilla into a dalek empire and get exterminated by your creations as typically happens.. but nevermind about that ..

I will be glad to leave windows

soon

I have so had enough of systems I have no control over

I am very happy with Server 2019 and Linux seems to go to the crappers. Suse Leap 15.5 with KDE is good and 15.6 will probably be too but ALP is on the horizon. They could put these immutable contaier stuff in the dumpster for all I care.

well linux hardware and drivers is gonna get a boost

but as we know it will be a few more ups and downs before userland software and ux is back to something more rational

now if hardware firmware quality got a boost too

and so there is gonna be a good software and desktop environment gap in the space where drivers are improving and the more mobile-y shit is gonna get more mainstream

on linux in the hands of people people

formerly known as morons

CaptainTobin: I suppose someday in the future some DE projects are gonna be like "look this kind of futuristic layout with so much usability and customization [image of KDE 3]"

njsg: Hi.

;)

hi, hi

I am LITERALLY doing that as a starting point

I am AHEAD OF THE CURVE

I just curved back around faster!

maybe I should go calculate the amount of whitespace in the Windows 98 UI. I'm sure the web view for folders is gonna skew results a bit, though

yeah but webview was very customizable

Think back to Mozilla and KDE of the early to mid 2000s..

wasn't there a sense of similarity

and like they should have naturally worked together and done a kickass desktop experience?

but every attempt failed

every last one

xpfe and kde2/3 design are almost identical

because they both take windows and mac elements and mix them into a really great hybrid of the best of the user interfaces

while xpfe wasn't as customizable as toolkit... toolkit applications indeed were every bit as extensable and customizable as kde applications and the environment was

they should have been natural allies

in impl they are also likewise similar

oweing partly to qt

They always remind me of SeaMonkey

They are more like Pale Moon than SeaMonkey

which is why I didn't just try and join them

nasty people some of em

sorry but as far as trinity's negatives well seamonkey does share a number but they are in the scope of reasonable feasablity and priorities and some decisions made .. the aspects it shares more with mcp and how I used to operate was more along the lines of spiteful vindictive persistance even when it is stupid.

you guys don't do that

I try to not get personal. It is only a hobby and a browser. And usually there are two sites of the coin. Which does not mean I like everyone. I am not Jesus and not on this world be be a saint :)

frg_Away: Problem FIXED in Build ID 20230709110001.

tonymec|away yeah. IanN_Away pushed a fix. I just did the meeting notes and merged with current template. Took it out because just a one time breakage.

frg_Away: I was going to add a line saying "✔ FIXED in 20230709110001" then I saw the entry was gone.

these one time breakages happen all the time so shouldn't be in the meeting notes. Not a bug tracker :) Wonder if we need a new wiki too when mozilla kicks us soon.

is the html editing software composer made available separately

CaptainTobin: yes, it was. I remember plaing with the... FHT? files?

was it folder.fht or something else?

natewrench no

hi .*

hi fr

still here for a bit of the meeting

hi frg_away

hello world~

running out of pancakes here

Meeting time in 2 minutes when IanN_Away shows up :)

frdo we have any feedback on if the new builds work for people?

oops wrong channel

sorry, writing an email

still one minute left :)

meeting time - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2023-07-09

hi rsx11m

Hi rsx11m

just in time :-0

where is our fearless leader?

Seems IanN fell asleep wrinting the mail :)

I do the meeting notes

maybe we are done already? ;-)

who's taking notes

me

^^^

Last ones only today becuase I had an internet outage yesterday.

thanks

FotFT?

I nominate buc for the new regexp patches. They are not so new but just took them 2 weeks ago becaues planned to do a full backport. Took too long and still on the menu but we need something working in between.

seconding

thirding

great :)

Action Items

Nothing new unless we want to discuss need new infra and services ere.

^here

we could do

We need to move sverices. Mozilla finally decided it is thime to let us go end of Q3. The MZLA appendix is eager to do too and replied 5 minutes later. So source code will probably be removed from comm-central, addons tb net will end and no more distribution from archive.mozilla.org. Legally all fine.

There's a new director of SRE at Mozilla, who sent a nice welcome email to us

OK then I will say we do have servers ewong set up on buildnet for some of what we would need like wiki ldap bugzilla. not sure if they are up to capacity we would need. also not sure where the servers came from and if they might be part of the infra we need to get off of.

we'll be asking if they are willing to continue down a contractual shared services route which was floated in 2019

ooof, Mozilla as usual keeping friends

We are mostly alaeady 90% on our own. It is not the end of the world but would affect translations and bug hunting mostly.

well would need to havw our own ftp and mirroring sites

what is still available in addons.thunderbird.net? themes?

if we need to get off of archive.mozilla.org/ftp.mozilla.org

A few full themes and addons. As far is I know reviews are not done. Dictionaries are affected most. webext ones work now. ALso not the end of the world but inconvenient.

are they retaining old builds there? or do they plan to get rid of old stuff? Just wondering if it could/should be stored elsewhere, say, in the internet archive.

Reviews for new ones are not done. There was some talk a few years ago to set us up not no follow-up. I expect a revam anyway with webext onky.

(archive/Ftp.mozilla.org, not addons.tb.net)

afterburst micro servers are fantastic hardworking machines in de and ny datacenters .. been using them for years .. they also drive the PM project.. I'd seriously consider dealing with them for setting up some servers .. it is rather reasonably priced as well

I suspect old stuff will just be available.

as well as other teirs

unmananaged but they will help you

the people behind it are server it geeks basically who came together to form a hosting company that doesn't suck.. I think they succeeded

In theory we could probably just upload builds to gitlab now.

yeah you should also mirror to github but freemium services do have limits

^I expect a revamp anyway with webext only.

but don't put your eggs in one basket if using the major services

Sharing binaries should not be too hard. Update services might take a hit for a few releases.

For bugzilla will probably move to graveyard and forgotten by mozilla then.

cause infra dropping out from you is something this project has been extremely lucky about thus far but yeah man... don't JUST do gitlab if you do gitlab do gitlab mirror to github and bitbucket and use their services as much as possible while also having a canonical copy yourself on a couple servers

The easiest thing is probably migrating from ftp.mozilla.org

in this way you can assure that no one single failure can cripple a mozfree seamonkey project

CaptainTobin I wouldn't trust gitlab for one second.

We have an azure presence but if we host there need to calculate traffic cost.

I would say "find some reasonably affordable hosting" and go the selfhost way, but... these days the landscape has changed too much

but seriously look into afterburst

AWS/Google/Azure all offer various forms of storage

these days it's all "use this AWS contraption"

true and they all will terminate your service at the first whim

on the flip side, those clouds offer the best bang for the buck if you can stand the complexity, especially from their wide variety of services AND billing

IanN:

i am NOT saying don't use them.. just don't exclusively rely on them

anyway I would suggest thinking on this and having a sperate meeting just on this topic and moving on with the agenda

Trust me on this.. I helped run a shoestring open source browser and mozilla platform project for eight years.. i am also rebuilding after the aftermath of putting too many eggs in one basket.. if nothing else learn from my failures so it at least has some worth beyond the pain endured resulting from them

Yes it is nothing whoch can be solved in a meeting. Just a "letting all know" that there might be a discruption in the force for a short time.

totally

not A meeting

Anyway hope I been helpful. This ends the occasional Tobin section of the SM Status Notes or whatever lol

Oh status on xref it is still gonna change with seemless redirect at some point in the next five minutes to five days.. else it will be later this month cause I am going on a trip. After that I will re-eval my resources see if I can offer anything more that isn't super critical but nicely needed in the same way I do xref

frg_away: at least you don't have a cat walking to & fro on your kb

Well the source code is safe and maintained, we are still commited so nothing to worry about.

CaptainTobin fwiw using your xref almost every day. Thanks.

thank over 20 years of saying nope this works fine thanks

:P

just the latest one

Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure

I think we have a new Rocky 8 builder?

frg_away: yes, not used it in anger yet, but I have access

great!

I am still cleaning up the source. Do we want to do 2.53.18 on it. Then I start pushing more build stuff. Abstained so far.

Also should we finally end x86 builds? If WG9s still does them we cann steer people to them.

well i would onlhy do en-US then so people would need to be happy with langpacks

yes, 2.53.18 is the aim for building on new server

x86 Linux distributions are all ancient. Windows x86 7 and 8.1 is EOL and running x86 10 would be a joke.

WG9s I think this would be ok.

Microsoft ought to keep making IA-32 releases for longer, at least a bit after some 128-bit architecture appears

because I want to see what will the WoWoW directory be called then

currently i am doing en_us de and rest of the world on langpacks

well, Debian still ships x86 as of Bookworm

i suppose i could keep doingg that

WG9s: any chance you could do a es_AR build too?

With todays websites you can write OOM on a cardboard and post it every hour.

not really limited space on my build systems

In any case, the only machines I still run x86 are not the ones where I would run a web browser anyway

except maybe for the Thinkpad :D

My T42 still has XP on it. My T61 and up are all x64 only now.

It is not much of a problem but I rather spend the time testing x86 releases to do something else.

Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree

we could always check the stats from the update server for x86 downloads

comm central and 2.53 are building. Lots of Javascript backports in the last days and plan to do some more today so please test. Nothing for web compatibility but groundwork.

also need to work out how to migrate x64 users using x86 builds to 64bit

I suspect when we do Linunx x86 builds on Rocky the requirements for libstdc and friends will go up and makes it incompatible with most remaining i686 distributions.

yeah, potentially

Release Train

For Windows I would recommend manual uninstall and reinstall.

IanN: what are the concerns in such a migration? file type and protocol association/registration? anything inside the profile or extensions?

2.53.17 is around the corner next.

actually i am still working the libstdc and glibc incompatability issues

IanN should we do it this week?

njsg: mainly offering them the 64bit version and doing the right thing for uninstall/install

frg_away: yes, would need to building this week, as away most of next weekend

I think when mozilla did it for Windows the x64 still landed in program files(x86)

IanN Still need to file a bug for 9999999-stackoverflow-25317.patch or label it as No Bug.

Fixes a very obscure crash with a marketing message which was also complete garbage. Not security related.

frg_away: i'd prefer a bug for it

np

Was just busy in the last week and forgot.

Extensions Tracking

Nothing new

2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable

old expression closures and e4x for each is gone now. Please test.

for rountable I am still working on the linux-6bit build issue using clang-126 lld and X11, Niw that I finally got all the hidden pre-reqs in I am back to working on the bug that is supposed to fix this.

I will try to see if Bug 1389510causes damage. If it does not it will make porting future js stuff much easier.

will 2.53.17 ship with the regex stuff?

so far the .18b1 builds are improving a lot the compatiblity with the most popular frame-not-work craze

no Only in 2.53.18b1pre and up.

that was obviously linux 64-bit

tommand 2.53.17 is dropping Python 2. This was needed first so that we are not being removed from Linux distributions.

bau for planning and next from me

AOB

pass

continue;

okay, thanks for your time today, next meet in 3 weeks, same bat channel, same bat time

cu

July 30th, if I'm not mistaken

yes

thanks I

thaniks IanN

bye then

bye rsx11m

away and here as usual