03:15:28 <IsambardPrince> The US is turning into a broken third world country.
03:16:03 <IsambardPrince> Walmart is cutting hours and closing stores now while the "news" asks if $20 million should get some fictional person through retirement.
03:16:23 <IsambardPrince> (Designed to make people feel bad and like it's all their fault.)
04:13:14 <GrannyGoose> ya want a Gun that bad, just go to the Nearest Walmart, assuming most Yankies do that
04:25:24 <IsambardPrince> Walmart stopped selling them.
04:25:42 <IsambardPrince> I guess it looked bad when people bought one and then murdered random people at the same store they bought it from.
04:25:53 <IsambardPrince> Or their coworkers.
04:25:59 <IsambardPrince> Or school children.
04:26:19 <IsambardPrince> Walmart censored all of the music CDs they sold, including a country album.
04:26:50 <IsambardPrince> They refused to sell the entire album instead of simply demanding an edit to remove the line "Watch our children kill each other with the guns they buy at Walmart Discount Stores."
04:27:31 <IsambardPrince> I think the sporting goods department still sells ammunition though.
04:27:58 <IsambardPrince> It's more profitable. There's no federal law requiring you to background check ammunition buyers.
04:28:32 <IsambardPrince> There's a lot of liability if you sell a gun in a manner that violates federal law, but you can sell ammunition to almost anyone.
05:55:50 <GrannyGoose> you can still buy Guns here in Australia if you want one badly , you just gotta know the right place/people to get it from, Johnny Howard ( ex Liberal PM ) didnt get rid of them all
06:12:34 <IsambardPrince> Yeah, Canada won't be any different. Even if it was, it has the largest land border in the world....with us.
06:12:57 <IsambardPrince> Trudeau made a gigantic black market for expensive guns going north to Canada on the black market.
06:13:06 <IsambardPrince> They'll still have them but the government won't know who does.
16:03:04 <CaptainTobin> you realize of course the last conversation at least transmitted to matrix log basically would get this channel, project, users, staff are only slightly right of the Pale Moon project .. just making sure others remain aware
16:03:24 <CaptainTobin> deemed only*
16:05:10 <CaptainTobin> greetings IanN[m] and frg_Away as well as franstam tomman and WG9s
16:05:37 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin hi
16:05:45 <CaptainTobin> how goes it
16:05:48 <CaptainTobin> I am in a GOOD
16:05:50 <CaptainTobin> Mood.
16:12:56 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin halfway ok but a bit stressed. 2.53.17b1 done andno the next release adventure now
16:22:25 <Swampogre> Hello. Have some of you guys tried Debian 12? Any problems to report?
16:25:26 <franstam> hi
16:26:37 <Swampogre> hello, franstam
18:21:40 <tomman> close to upgrade on one of my rigs
18:21:46 <tomman> but this one? Not today, dear~
18:25:29 <frg_Away> tomman beta 2.53.17b1 is done. Do you want an early test drive to check for your crashes? Done with different compilers among other (small) things.
18:25:43 <tomman> Oh, I meant Debian :D
18:25:54 <frg_Away> tomman I know
18:25:55 <tomman> but sure, I'm upgrading betas here then
18:26:07 <frg_Away> tomman which language?
18:26:11 <tomman> es_AR
18:26:14 <frg_Away> and os?
18:26:33 <frg_Away> linux x64 and windows x64?
18:27:05 <tomman> so far only Linux x64
18:27:14 <tomman> I largely stopped using my Win7 installs here
18:31:16 <tomman> anyway, any link?
18:31:28 <tomman> I see the WG9s's nightlies are at 18b1
18:31:57 <tomman> (FWIW I'm using build 20230604141501)
18:33:11 <WG9s> tomman i see you found the new nightlies seems nothing i try topost to archive.mozilla.org/ftp.mozilla.org seems to get here anymore
18:33:29 <WG9s> please use the new link inthe topic
18:33:55 <frg_Away> tomman see private for the link
18:34:03 <tomman> got it~
18:34:20 <frg_Away> tomman let me knwo when the download finished.
18:36:08 <WG9s> seems the mozilla folks changed clud providers so we are on the back foot
18:36:23 <WG9s> cloud providers
18:36:58 <tomman> frg_Away: done!
18:37:11 <tomman> brb, upgrading~
18:50:50 <tomman> back~
18:51:45 <tomman> hit a minor snag: the addons manager hangs the browser if 1) you have SeaFox installed (which changes the UI layout style for the addons manager), and 2) you click the "Get Addons" tab
18:52:05 <tomman> insta-hang with 100% CPU, and no way out except via SIGTERM
18:52:30 <frg_Away> tomman was the add-on compatible before?
18:53:07 <tomman> well, can't remember having gotten that hang in, like, ever
18:53:22 <tomman> aside of that it still works (but I do remember having patched it once due to some deprecation)
18:54:45 <frg_Away> tomman well this one and 2.53.18 will probably still cause some grief wrt old add-ons but hopefully that was it then for some time.
18:55:10 <tomman> I already wrote off Flashblock, but aside of that I expected Redirector to break again
18:55:22 <tomman> but this time it doesn't need more patching, thankfully :)
18:56:36 <frg_Away> Had a similiar problem with version number but confined to the add-on manager itself. page broke becuase I removed some cruft. But this was a few releases ago when I added back the versions.
18:56:38 <tomman> sadly SeaFox got abandoned back when Win10 was still being shoehorned into every Win7 box ever
18:58:32 <tomman> Oh, forgot to say: if I get into that "Get Addons" hang, to exit it I have to kill the browser, start it in safe mode, disable Sea Fox, restart in normal mode, enter the (new UI) Addons manager, click any tab BUT Get Addons, reenable Sea Fox, restart SeaMonkey once again, and then it remembers the last selected tab
18:59:07 <tomman> the Get Addons tab won't hang without Sea Fox, so I guess it's some incompatibility that arised there
18:59:33 <tomman> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=2836799&start=60 even his author wasn't exactly clear on how his replacement even worked
19:00:43 <tomman> maybe I should hack SeaFox and nerf that overlay?
19:02:06 <frg_Away> tomman Full themes can break the world and cause support issues. The main reason why Mozilla took them out I think. All in the name of Webext security. Right...
19:02:24 <tomman> and now I remember what changes I did to my SeaFox install
19:02:28 <tomman> actually only CSS stuff!
19:02:39 <tomman> not a single line of XUL/JS :D
19:02:58 <tomman> SeaFox is not a theme, but an addon
19:03:08 <frg_Away> Just counted yesterday and now about 450 third party rust crates in latest Firefox. About 400 MB of source glibberish. Good luck for the future...
19:03:27 <frg_Away> tomman what does it do?
19:03:43 <tomman> basically it restores some FF3.x UI bits
19:03:55 <tomman> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=2836799
19:04:18 <tomman> one of the changes it does is restoring the "old" addons manager UI
19:04:40 <tomman> (I see a extensions.xul and addons.xml on the XPI)
19:05:33 <tomman> oh, and my sessionstore.json got nerfed again too
19:05:39 <tomman> time to restore my session again, the hard way
19:06:40 <frg_Away> tomman maybe you can keep the console open during shutdown. If an error occurs early might be caught there.
19:10:10 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: sorry got distracted on something trivial that didn't work
19:10:13 <CaptainTobin> .........
19:28:42 <CaptainTobin> good to know your development progress is plodding along
19:28:59 <CaptainTobin> even if you have to drag it kicking and screaming
19:29:15 <CaptainTobin> i think seamonkey has a serious rust problem
19:29:20 <CaptainTobin> it's become addicted
19:29:26 <CaptainTobin> we need to get it halp
19:29:37 <CaptainTobin> into rehab
19:29:39 <CaptainTobin> :P
19:39:26 <tomman> https://paulrobertlloyd.com/2023/162/a1/css_day/ the tragedy of CSS is that this whole post layout
19:39:45 <CaptainTobin> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
19:41:40 <tomman> > All the additions to CSS, JS, HTML, and even the continued growth of frameworks and abstractions, are a choice. You have a choice to limit yourself and your team to a subset of the available tools, and it's a good idea to do so. The web as a platform is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, it needs to expand and grow in order to cater to all. Restricting the tools for...
19:41:42 <tomman> ...your project makes it easier to maintain, and easier to onboard new contributors.
19:41:47 <tomman> really Hackernews!?
19:41:58 <tomman> Oh, let's add MOAR COMPLEXITY because there are ONE ZILLION DEVS
19:42:29 <tomman> where is my own Tomman's Javascript Extensions?
19:42:44 <CaptainTobin> idgi
19:42:44 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36298038
19:43:13 <CaptainTobin> is he bitching about google or surrendering to google and the fact his site uses insane google css ?
19:43:17 <CaptainTobin> WTF IS HAPPENING
19:43:36 <tomman> brain implosion
19:43:41 <tomman> that what's happening
19:44:03 <CaptainTobin> EXPLAIN
19:44:18 <tomman> Also I love how webdevs encourage developers to pick a framework and marry to it, just to be forcefully "pushed forward" every time they need to deploy a security patch
19:44:49 <tomman> suddenly you too become part of the problem and all you wanted is to Get Shit Done™
19:44:58 <CaptainTobin> this is the final push
19:45:04 <tomman> and this is why I choose not to pursue a career on webdev
19:45:35 <tomman> "Exactly. Apple's lack of contribution to the internet ecosystem exactly aligns with their profit motive: Selling hardware."
19:45:39 <CaptainTobin> the web needs to be split into The World Wide Web and The Open Web directly by use of a web and app protocol
19:45:40 <tomman> for once I must side with Apple
19:45:50 <CaptainTobin> but they would NEVER allow it
19:45:58 <CaptainTobin> it isn't enough to move advance or change stupidly
19:46:11 <CaptainTobin> it MUST be at the exclusion and destruction of any opposition including alternatives
19:46:27 <CaptainTobin> tomman: the winds have shifted
19:46:55 <CaptainTobin> google is gonna go down a peg, microsoft is gonna be more the big bad and apple is gonna try to unite snobs and slobs under their banner
19:47:00 <CaptainTobin> THIS is what I see happening
19:47:23 <CaptainTobin> oh and Linux is gonna push for the desktop
19:47:29 <CaptainTobin> in a big way
19:47:45 <CaptainTobin> the consumertainment desktop
19:47:50 <tomman> Wasn't Microsoft dead anyway? Noone but Legacy Business™ want Windows these days anyway
19:48:06 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft is dead as so far as most their staff is now AI
19:48:08 <tomman> and that's because they had just finished their 15 year to move off those IBM mainframe to Win32 LOB apps
19:48:19 <CaptainTobin> but microsoft as the big bad is hardly over
19:48:29 <CaptainTobin> ibm is behind the push for linux desktop
19:48:32 <tomman> MS missed the mobile boat big time
19:48:32 <CaptainTobin> they want back in
19:48:38 <CaptainTobin> and Microsoft must be stopped
19:48:43 <CaptainTobin> this was ALWAYS true
19:48:47 <tomman> and folks from the new generations have deemed The Desktop™ unsexy
19:49:06 <tomman> like, something you use when forced on the clock
19:49:32 <CaptainTobin> i am fine with completely cryptic environments only 3 people can use.. ALL for it but not extrapolated and slammed on top crushing everything else everywhere
19:49:40 <tomman> (the ONE exception being gamers, but those only care about RGB LEDs and sub-bullet latency)
19:49:57 <CaptainTobin> well perty colors and games have always gone hand in hand
19:50:01 <CaptainTobin> to be fair
19:50:41 <CaptainTobin> tomman: i am gonna send you a notice
19:51:36 <tomman> I want my KDE3 back :D
19:51:49 <CaptainTobin> trinity devs are visionless assholes tho
19:51:55 <CaptainTobin> lot like Moonchild in that regard
19:52:03 <tomman> the one time I tried Trinity, it didn't played nice with Pulseaudio AT ALL
19:52:07 <tomman> and that was... in 2022
19:52:18 <CaptainTobin> well no one WANTED to play nice with pulse in 2012
19:52:19 <tomman> a shame, because otherwise I would have already moved
19:52:23 <CaptainTobin> because they hate the dev
19:52:42 <tomman> well, it's not 2006 anymore, Pulse was trash back then, but had plenty of time to mature and it's now rock solid for the 99%
19:52:50 <tomman> but we're beginning the circle again with Pipewire
19:52:59 <CaptainTobin> and pulse is being slowly abandoned
19:53:03 <CaptainTobin> just as it got pretty solid
19:53:08 <tomman> I tend to not listen to Poetteringware hateboners
19:53:36 <CaptainTobin> but I might end up BUILDING my own distro
19:53:40 <tomman> as usual, follow my Pact of Non-Aggression: you don't mess with me and I'll let you live
19:53:47 <CaptainTobin> to BE a very traditional OS if not linux os
19:54:01 <tomman> that's the rule I follow with systemd, Pulseaudio, and other pieces of controversial softwar
19:54:16 <tomman> the one exception is Wayland - I do not want to have anything to do with that trash
19:54:24 <CaptainTobin> dude
19:54:41 <CaptainTobin> xorg as a project imploded years ago it is virtually unmaintained and everyone wants it dead
19:54:48 <CaptainTobin> you have no choice outside the bsds
19:54:51 <CaptainTobin> for xorg
19:55:06 <tomman> I do: stick it to the man, and stick to Xorg 'till the day I die
19:55:12 <tomman> that's the hill I've choosen to die on
19:55:33 <tomman> Xorg is dead, but it's replacement is an ABOMINATION
19:55:34 <hyc> seems to me wayland only exists because people wanted faster game rendering
19:55:53 <CaptainTobin> but i am thinking about a wayland compositor that is really simple and WILL do shit the way we would want it ..
19:55:54 <hyc> getting rid of network portability seems quite a loss
19:56:35 <CaptainTobin> because the ONLY TRUE examples of wayland compositors are people devoted to the post-modern crap.. and everything else is an experimental demo that is abandoned
19:56:42 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin 2.53 currently has 177 rust crates in third_party. These are 177 too many but can't be helped. But 461 with more than double the source size. No wonder comm-central is a dog to compile. Takes  almost an houzr here compared to 2.53. which is about 23 minutes.
19:57:13 <CaptainTobin> plus mailnews core
19:57:33 <CaptainTobin> that always slows up the build
19:58:08 <CaptainTobin> shit at MY level mailnews is likely the single largest pure mozilla component left in the codebase
20:00:04 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: notice
20:09:57 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin suspect the ship has sailed unless a few more people show up. Hard enough to keep up with gnome and wayland.
20:15:56 <tomman> the problem is to convince us dinosaurs to gather and collaborate with the ressistance
20:17:14 <CaptainTobin> Resistance is futile. They will be assimilated.
20:17:40 <CaptainTobin> ... well it is SLIGHTLY better than exterminate isn't it?!
20:18:31 <CaptainTobin> i should REALLY diff 1.9.2 and 2.0
20:18:38 <CaptainTobin> just to see
20:20:35 <CaptainTobin> would be nice to evolve up a reference prototype with the select technologies I want would likely have to start with a gecko 2.0 retrograded to 1.9.2's ui features and components while still retaining the engine advancements and continue up the line
20:22:13 <CaptainTobin> man all these ideas stuff to try .. experiments to run.. hmmmmmmm
20:26:02 * a-865 has never tried to open any kind of wayland session
20:26:24 <a-865> hopefully I'll die before Xorg
20:26:42 <a-865> Xorg should be good for another 10 years at least
20:45:53 <frg_Away> a-865 well wayland immutable Linux distros with snapped programs plus Windows 11 and mac stuff which degrades even more with every version... The future is bright. I will probably leave IT and just use a laptop for occassional shopping in a few years.