00:17:12 <franstam> why not migrate the core feature of their software to run a less dumb browser engine? like goanna?
00:17:55 <franstam> if they up the support to win 10, some games on their platform would break cos dont suport win 10?
00:18:08 <franstam> april fools joke?
00:19:28 <franstam> did they wake up one day and forget to use their brains ?
00:19:45 <franstam> did they check that some games dont even support windows 10 and higher???
00:20:12 <tomman> it's Valve
00:20:38 <tomman> all they care is about filling pools of cash for Uncle Gaben, and keep cancelling Half-Life 3
00:24:57 <tomman> also they assume people don't like to play old niche games
00:51:01 <franstam> what is half life again?
00:51:07 <franstam> gave up on that game
01:04:19 <tomman> OK, Portal 3 :P
01:14:04 <franstam> lol
01:14:18 <franstam> own portal 1 & 2 but only played 1
01:14:31 <franstam> even HL1 & 2 only played 1
01:14:42 <franstam> should i play 2?
08:41:00 <njsg> franstam: this can border the idiotic if the component pushing this is Steam itself: do they *really* need something chrome-ium in there, and does it really need to be such that it won't support NT 6.1? not even some plan to cater for such devices?
08:41:24 <njsg> it sounds like a too big of a restriction to put on Steam, if you ask me, but I don't think Valve asked me :-)
08:57:53 <franstam> njsg, i guess valve went with a chromium engine in their software when nt 6.1 support dropping was nowhere in sight
11:20:16 <tomman> franstam: indeed Steam switched to CEF (Chrome Embedded Framework) circa 2013 or so, not a new change (before that they used IE on Wundows, and some Webkit thing under Mac/early Linux releases)
12:02:24 <njsg> but was that just so that people could browse steam webpages from steam or is it really used for the game management UI and features?
12:44:30 <tomman> the entire UI is a webapp these days
12:44:47 <tomman> it's closer to Electron than you would think
12:45:26 <tomman> (parts of the UI still use Valve's inhouse toolkit, but most of the UI is webshat since 2017 or so)
13:04:05 <franstam> yes we now have weird ui bugs like right click friends list not working when friends list is not wide enough
13:04:16 <franstam> like what kind of bullshit bug is that????
13:30:15 <franstam> https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/6670425060410741794/
16:45:56 <CaptainTobin> >Microsoft Server Operating System but NOT Windows Setup.
16:46:28 <CaptainTobin> they are positioning windows server to survive when windows client doesn't even have local install media anymore
16:46:56 <CaptainTobin> subtle conditioning to disassociate server from windows
16:47:54 <CaptainTobin> ain't like microsoft hasn't been repeatedly failing to do that since windows 8.. wonder if everyone is fed up by now to just let microsoft have their way and reduce win32 to a wine-level layer at best
17:07:42 <xuochi> Personally, I've felt for quite some time that Microsoft should just open source WinXP Pro 32 and 64 along with DirectX, and then also make a WINE style portable API for *nix. Then, continue to develop Office for that API and make it available for everything as a compiled perpetual license like they used to...
17:07:54 <CaptainTobin> they can't
17:08:02 <CaptainTobin> they can open source PARTS
17:08:05 <xuochi> Beyond that, they could have a certification system for games and applications that earned a tiny bit of revenue for each piece of commercial software sold.
17:08:14 <CaptainTobin> it has to do with patents and contracts and IP
17:08:16 <CaptainTobin> and shit
17:08:34 <CaptainTobin> they COULD open source the pre-IE NT 4 port of the chicago cabinate shell
17:08:43 <CaptainTobin> aka orginal Windows Explorer
17:09:28 <xuochi> Well, DEC no longer exists to claim their VMS IP, the BSD TCP/IP stack is already opensource, the patents that IBM had on parts of NT are long expired, and SpyGlass's IP rights are also long expired.
17:09:43 <CaptainTobin> of course they'd give us the asciifucked 9x version i bet
17:10:18 <CaptainTobin> the real problem are companies that no longer exist and the rights are either unknown or hostile
17:10:55 <CaptainTobin> but realisticly the NT4 source is ripe for open sourcing cause a lot of that code done in-house has been replaced by purchased or unrelated code
17:11:02 <CaptainTobin> especially the shell
17:11:30 <xuochi> eh, Microsoft has the money to spend.
17:11:33 <xuochi> bribe all the people.
17:11:47 <xuochi> In the end, I just feel this would be a far more profitable path for them.
17:12:05 <xuochi> No one cares about an OS except for nerdy folks like myself. Everyone cares about applications.
17:12:06 <CaptainTobin> not like everyone doesn't already HAVE the source code at this point.. we just are waiting for microsoft to either go bankrupt and hope the assets aren't aquired by google or the like.. or for microsoft to say what code is ok to be relicensed
17:12:39 <xuochi> Win32 is the single stable API that exists at this point on any OS. Linux is changing constantly, macOS is changing constantly, Windows is doing dumb stuff that everyone hates constantly...
17:12:44 <xuochi> But, win32 is stable.
17:13:12 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft won't open source large parts of NT5x especially xp and later because THAT can still be used viably see the MSFN people
17:13:22 <CaptainTobin> win32 hasn't been stable since Windows 7 my friend
17:13:26 <CaptainTobin> that's the point
17:13:32 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft wants NT and win32 dead
17:14:02 <CaptainTobin> that is why the NT kernel is being reconditioned to run hypervisors only and nt subsystems are deemed not viable cause of modern microsoft's inability to make wsl1 work properly
17:14:18 <CaptainTobin> basically IN EFFECT
17:14:26 <CaptainTobin> the nt kernel is dos and win32 is win16
17:14:40 <CaptainTobin> for ALL intents and purposes and in terms of future prospects
17:14:42 <CaptainTobin> there are NONE
17:14:47 <CaptainTobin> Windows.. is a dead platform
17:15:15 <CaptainTobin> Microsoft Service OS might not be but windows outside LTSC 2019 won't exist by the time it EOLs
17:15:31 <CaptainTobin> EVERYTHING has been positioned this way
17:15:43 <CaptainTobin> and it feels so artifical and so spiteful and petty
17:16:37 <CaptainTobin> because we could decide if the new shit is any good if we were allowed to keep our old shit without hinderance.. but no we aren't it isn't a choice it is by force and the very notion of even questioning it is as bad as calling people racist names at this point.. it is disgusting
17:18:12 <CaptainTobin> Windows is a means to a service it is no longer a product in its own right tho they will gladly take your money anyway.. and doesn't ACTUALLY matter.. to be slice diced mutated trashed abandoned and pissed on along the way
17:18:13 <CaptainTobin> JUST
17:18:15 <CaptainTobin> LIKE
17:18:16 <CaptainTobin> MOZILLA
17:18:59 <CaptainTobin> hi xuochi sorry for the sudden heavy load but damn if others were half as passionate about it as I try to be i wouldn't HAVE to
17:19:00 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:21:10 <xuochi> well, Microsoft is definitely doing their right best to destroy Windows whether or not it's their stated goal
17:21:48 <xuochi> I just feel that developing an operating system is expensive and wasteful. They'd be better off to just develop languages, applications, and the like
17:27:55 <CaptainTobin> like Mozilla creating rust
17:27:56 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:28:47 <CaptainTobin> the thing is.. why does everyone think trying to literally change everything while trying to produce a working product is a good idea
17:28:55 <CaptainTobin> we have had over a decade of proof it ain't
17:29:13 <CaptainTobin> no one can do it because it was stupid to change everything for it in the first place
17:31:32 <CaptainTobin> regardless of if the specific thing is driven by some communist agenda or if the person is or believes in communism one UNESCAPABLE FACT REMAINS that classic communist tactics ARE the operating rules we are under .. radical revolution, purgings, changing everything in stupid ways and maintaining the obvious falsehood that you can have a stable system while nothing that makes up it is stable and is constantly changed out or refactored
17:32:18 <CaptainTobin> and that methodoly even in isolation from ideology has ALSO been proven historically to be stupid as fuck
17:32:27 <CaptainTobin> so i don't even know what is going on anymore xuochi
17:34:49 <xuochi> well, change for the sake of change is bad, but some changes are a good thing. For example, changes in the Linux kernel scheduler have been a good thing. However, I think that things like: "rewrite it in rust" are stupid because there are more mistakes than just memory that can be made, will be made, and to think that one will write perfect software is hubris.
17:35:06 <xuochi> As such, it's far better to simply patch and stabilize what is in front of you 99% of the time.
17:35:32 <xuochi> The only time a full rewrite is in order is if you plan to do something radically different.
17:35:49 <CaptainTobin> xuochi: look at Mozilla for how shit will go wrong everywhere before you realize it
17:35:58 <CaptainTobin> they mapped out a plan for self destruction
17:36:24 <xuochi> This is what angers me about things like Windows. Right when Microsoft got XP to be stable and trusted, it was time to make Vista. Right when Vista's launch issues were corrected, it was time for 7, and so on.
17:36:51 <CaptainTobin> if i actually believed any remaining netscape employee still THOUGHT like a netscape employee i'd call it the best long term troll job back at microsoft and compeditors EVER by destroying them selves and calling it modern and liberal they are getting everyone who crushed netscape to do the same
17:37:06 <CaptainTobin> but we don't live in a universe where terrible things can have a constructive purpose
17:37:22 <CaptainTobin> we live in a universe where petty crualty is its own reward
17:39:28 <CaptainTobin> Well to be fair.. Windows 7 WAS the corRected Vista ie vista that had more than 2 years of development when you radically rearchitect the internals because expanding them already collapsed because webapps and nt kernel are not entirely compatible concepts.. which today is why it must be killed even if no part can be further abused to serve the future bs
17:40:33 <CaptainTobin> AND luckily because everyone is obsessed with feelings and people don't like negative ones.. observations like that don't really get the attention it deserves anymore
17:40:56 <CaptainTobin> so surely it isn't a problem right?
17:41:01 <CaptainTobin> didn't show up in the telemetry!
17:41:55 <CaptainTobin> "Windows Vista" was in development for five years..
17:42:06 <CaptainTobin> but three years of that was Longhorn
17:42:15 <CaptainTobin> where they shoved everything ever at windows and it fell down
17:42:18 <CaptainTobin> VISTA
17:42:26 <CaptainTobin> NT 6.0.6000
17:42:28 <CaptainTobin> that Vista
17:42:37 <CaptainTobin> was only in development for two years
17:43:46 <CaptainTobin> AND because of longhorn and vista and the shitty handling of OEMs by the time Vista worked no OEMs really had shit ready PLUS add the "Vista Capable" shit on top with old ass XP machines loaded with an OS so advanced it is only now that no one has a choice that they can retard it for everyone
17:44:06 <CaptainTobin> by SP1 Vista was largely stable
17:44:31 <njsg> xuochi: win32 isn't stable, win32 at least used to - I think - not be that hostile to older systems? and more backwards-compatible than javascript?
17:44:32 <CaptainTobin> by SP2 it was nearly eq to Windows 7 rtm save memory model and a few other tidbits..
17:45:14 <CaptainTobin> win32 has in prior to windows 10 and especially 1809 and earlier had EXCEPTIONAL compatibility
17:45:36 <CaptainTobin> i still run a few NT 4 utilities
17:45:56 <CaptainTobin> even a win2k beta util that was later folded into shell32
17:46:01 <CaptainTobin> works perfectly
17:46:42 <njsg> xuochi: microsoft is already putting Office as something that's multi-platform. Only it's not Win32 what they're using as a portable api, but google chrome
17:46:50 <njsg> well, at least parts of office
17:46:53 <CaptainTobin> I use Paint Shop Pro 11 which works perfectly on windows XP through 1809 but starts fucking up on newer builds (also does dwm no matter the graphics driver/card on this system)
17:47:33 <CaptainTobin> actually it works on win2k too but i think i had to fudge windows installer
17:47:36 <CaptainTobin> update
17:47:37 <CaptainTobin> to do it
17:47:39 <CaptainTobin> still
17:47:57 <CaptainTobin> fact is.. win32 up till a few years ago maintained exceptional second to none backwards compatibility
17:48:27 <CaptainTobin> it was the only thing no one ever disagreed that microsoft did right.. UP UNTIL the old and insecure fuckheads leading to this modern web everything
17:48:49 <njsg> meanwhile javascript redefines the defaults of fetch() so that docs now say it sends credentials and manages to break websites
17:49:14 <CaptainTobin> You know when people LAST questioned backwards compatibility going away? The Playstation 3
17:49:20 <njsg> not python 3?
17:49:25 <CaptainTobin> and in the end Sony did whatever they wanted
17:49:26 <njsg> or python 2
17:49:54 <CaptainTobin> previous backwards compatibility going away during a product's lifetime
17:50:09 <CaptainTobin> features at launch stripped away later
17:50:16 <CaptainTobin> forced service updates or banning
17:50:23 <tomman> so... SeaMonkey 2.53 for Windows Me when? :D
17:50:28 <CaptainTobin> SONY proved it would be viable AND not enough would resist
17:50:57 <CaptainTobin> and with the iphone of course everyone realized these people be stupid .. we can tell them anything
17:51:03 <CaptainTobin> and they were right largely
17:51:09 <CaptainTobin> and it is so disheartening
17:51:25 <tomman> ah, the PS3
17:51:30 <tomman> "It Only Does Everything™"
17:51:42 <tomman> ...including losing your personal data to Best Korean "hackers"
17:52:18 <CaptainTobin> well microsoft's new scheme to combat people locking your data and holding you hostage is for THEM to lock your data and hold you hostage
17:52:27 <CaptainTobin> wannacry to OneCore
17:52:29 <CaptainTobin> i still wanna cry
17:52:30 <CaptainTobin> tho
17:52:36 <CaptainTobin> or CorePC
17:52:43 <CaptainTobin> whatever core they are pissing into this week
17:53:06 <CaptainTobin> tomman: you know from W that the internet is a series of tubes
17:53:15 <CaptainTobin> what happens when you shut down all the other tubes
17:53:22 <CaptainTobin> and then shove everything through ONE tube
17:53:27 <CaptainTobin> the tube will get backed up
17:53:28 <tomman> you get Elon Musk?
17:53:28 <CaptainTobin> burst
17:53:34 <CaptainTobin> and all the CLOOOOOOOUD will escape