13:47:47 <LoadingUser> Help me save the internet from Big Mozilla
14:01:12 <LoadingUser> Current use-case meta: Tablet > Fennec (F-Droid) > Kiwi
14:01:37 <tomman> "Big Mozilla" went bust, the rage is all Big Chrome~
14:04:50 <LoadingUser> But rage is the opposite of better software
14:07:03 <tomman> "better software" stopped being the goal many, MANY years ago
14:07:47 <tomman> otherwise we would not be using smartphones (some of us under duress) for nearly everything
14:08:10 <LoadingUser> Ah-ha! So you admit software is being developed!
14:08:36 <tomman> I also admit blue is still a color :D
14:10:11 <LoadingUser> Moddability is actually my immediate UX "concern"
14:10:15 <njsg> yeah, big blue
14:10:38 <tomman> Big Blue is now Big Blockchain™
14:11:18 <njsg> big blue removed whatever rule they had that still allowed accessing non-js content on some of their pages with specific UA strings
14:12:17 <tomman> oh wow
14:13:10 <tomman> I guess they want those OS/2 machines gone forever :/
14:14:01 <LoadingUser> Script managed content isn't inherently bad, it just needs an appropriate side-channel to restore functionality.
14:14:09 <tomman> yeah, no
14:14:40 <tomman> if you're forcing people to download an execute several megabytes of JS framework toxic hellstew just to read a help file (composed of STATIC content), you're a criminal
14:16:29 <tomman> if you download a page made of good ol' static HTML+CSS, and append to it 1MB of JSON to /rewrite the entire page contents from scratch on load/ (just to make the entire DOM tree vanish because your browser doesn't happen to support the latest Chrome JS feature deployed on last week alpha), you deserve to have a Minuteman deployed into your workstation
14:16:48 <LoadingUser> Okay yeah, uhh, defense qualifies as a problem
14:17:39 <LoadingUser> definitely*
14:17:55 <tomman> "the web browser as an OS" and "frameworks everywhere" (and even "web compilers") paradigms are what led us to this mess
14:18:38 <tomman> of course you tell that to webdevs and they promptly dismiss you with "healthy ecosystem" and "innovation" content-free BS
14:18:57 <LoadingUser> Yes those are all UX terrors
14:19:12 <tomman> because we totally need emoji regexes and client-side frameworks just to fill a form /s
14:19:58 <tomman> At this point I feel that we would achieve little nuking Chrome, as the problem is now with webkids pushing raw untested Github commits to production
14:20:43 <tomman> sanity is no longer valued as a skill :/
14:20:49 <LoadingUser> Actually,  those three forms are good examples of overengineering, since they're each meant to solve both other problems.
14:21:14 <tomman> "Overengineering" is the key word here, and that's how the modern web is built
14:21:40 <tomman> "it works on my new shiny Mac running Chrome Canary, let's push to production and wait for that sweet, sweet VC money~!"
14:22:12 <LoadingUser> Yes, please stop restating the problem, I already feel bad enough as it is.
14:22:44 <tomman> What I want to say is that it's time to tell webdevs to STOP, and start pushing backwards
14:23:07 <tomman> pick simple and sensible over shiny and bloaty
14:23:40 <tomman> start looking at the big picture, and that includes your users AND the device ecosystem
14:24:13 <LoadingUser> Well they'll have to fairly soon since I did generalize a system for making illicit use of any system which doesn't moderate POST requests
14:24:17 <tomman> I don't oppose to sensible progress - if a feature makes my life easier as a dev without turning my users life into a living hell, by all means bake it into the standard
14:24:43 <tomman> but if the sole reason for a feature to exist is because "hey, it's new and it helps to pad my resume", well... we're doomed
14:25:56 <LoadingUser> Yes resume padding is a qualifiable X-risk and global TODO for post-scarcity.
14:36:10 <LoadingUser> Stagnant wealth detected
14:39:41 <tomman> at least it wasn't saved on Silicon Valley Bank :D
14:42:50 <LoadingUser> Wealth conflict: Consult Chaos documentation
14:43:36 <njsg> tomman: I'd say a chief problem nowadays is the "bake it into the standard" part
14:44:19 <njsg> yes, you can add new features, you can specify them, these can be included in a versioned standard, with some way to know whether it's implemented according to it or not
14:44:25 <njsg> that's sometimes not done, see fetch()
14:45:51 <njsg> the rest of it (non-standardized or too new features being relied on, effectively restricting the audience to a few specific browsers) is pretty much browser wars from the 90s IMHO
14:47:04 <tomman> njsg: yea, but even MS wasn't THAT evil in the '90s
14:47:29 <tomman> intentionally broken HTML/CSS implementations, a few vendor-specific extensions, and of course the nightmare of ActiveX
14:47:50 <tomman> and at some point they just let everything rot because "we're too big to fall"
14:48:55 <tomman> compare with the Chromeweb, where "booting the Linux kernel in a tab" is now considered a core feature, and we have dozens of new features with every release, most of them bloaty and pointless
14:50:07 <tomman> "see, we never stop innovating unlike those dinosaurs at Micro-Soft!", obviously that earns the goodwill of eager hipster devs, unlike old boring ActiveX which you nearly had to use it at gunpoint :D
14:50:40 <njsg> but can it run MS Agent on the browser without ActiveX or VBS?
14:52:18 <tomman> well, someone somewhere is either reimplementing it, or even worse, virtualizing it on Webassembly!
14:52:31 <tomman> soon we'll be able to emulate ActiveX controls!
14:52:45 * tomman dies inside
14:53:10 <LoadingUser> Oh good, better you than me.
14:53:37 <tomman> we can already boot Windows 95 on a browser, FWIW
14:54:11 <tomman> the only missing piece of the puzzle is a Javascript native CPU, of course
14:54:24 <LoadingUser> I can port my vulnerability actualizer to 95
15:00:02 <LoadingUser> Alternative: I have polyfill for native code functions.
15:00:39 <LoadingUser> (Also in FF)
15:32:32 <LoadingUser> So I can run Netscape in a tab, but native ChatZilla doesn't conform with market goals?
15:34:55 <tomman> if your chat app doesn't involve a bloated Electron app for cellphones and PCs, a total ban on 3rd-party clients, a fairly abrasive ToS, backdoors for the Three Axis of Evil, and a complete lack of customer support, yes, you're not conforming to market goals
15:34:59 <tomman> also don't forget the paid emojis
15:35:38 <LoadingUser> Right.
15:36:34 <LoadingUser> So ownership of a content space is currently maligned against all life.
15:40:52 <LoadingUser> Activism fails too
15:43:14 <LoadingUser> Active services technician!
16:31:57 <LoadingUser> So firefox is a parasite project under the Mozilla architecture
16:36:54 <CaptainTobin> firefox is white supremecy in communist form.
16:37:10 <CaptainTobin> I am sure there is no way THAT sentence can be taken out of context lol
16:38:07 <LoadingUser> Actually worse for UX if there's any project lacking a dedicated IRC channel.
16:39:11 <CaptainTobin> irc ain't popular
16:39:30 <CaptainTobin> and irc bridges to web chat services like matrix are very very very pathetic and spotty
16:39:31 <LoadingUser> Popularity isn't immortality
16:39:52 <CaptainTobin> I MAY do something about that but let's get what I know i can accomplish done first before illusions of theory
16:41:01 <LoadingUser> I haven't discussed theory.
16:41:05 <CaptainTobin> hai frg_Away how are you my good and dear friend
16:41:12 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: critical chrome theory?
16:41:36 <CaptainTobin> i don't want that taught to my children!
16:41:40 <CaptainTobin> if i had children
16:41:51 <CaptainTobin> i wouldn't want critical Chrome theory taught to them LoadingUser
16:41:54 <LoadingUser> Scroll all the way back, my point doesn't exist in another place
16:42:07 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: READING?! in 2023
16:42:14 <CaptainTobin> you are clearly delusional.
16:42:19 <CaptainTobin> please report to a medical professional
16:42:33 <CaptainTobin> gimmy a few lol
16:42:41 <LoadingUser> I'm here for an actual reason, not direct harassment.
16:43:02 <CaptainTobin> wasn't MEANING to harrass you dude
16:43:08 <CaptainTobin> i'd let you know if i was
16:43:30 <CaptainTobin> yeah no i feel your pain with the current state of things
16:43:43 <CaptainTobin> I am TRYING to do something about it but it is difficult
16:43:48 <CaptainTobin> well we all are in our ways
16:43:49 <LoadingUser> It's worse than pain
16:44:08 <CaptainTobin> complete slavory, death and destruction?
16:44:10 <CaptainTobin> yeah
16:44:19 <LoadingUser> Pain has the redeeming quality of being something you can feel
16:44:25 <CaptainTobin> pain is JUST the begining
16:44:26 <CaptainTobin> eh?
16:44:54 <LoadingUser> Toxic UX is a problem case beyond mere pain
16:45:06 <LoadingUser> It's existential
16:45:10 <CaptainTobin> well tell people to stop allowing effectively cenobites to dictate to us
16:45:54 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: you can FEEL how the total disgust ozzes from post-modern UX
16:46:07 <CaptainTobin> and bullshit as a service?
16:46:38 <LoadingUser> BaaS, ah, let this acronym die.
16:47:58 <LoadingUser> (Actually I have recent philosophical work refuting the BaaS
16:48:08 <CaptainTobin> webapps.. jsapps node.. chrome.. whatwg mse eme webcomponents including es modules shadowdom and customelements all shit Mozilla did 20 years ago and BETTER than anyone else including Microsoft.. but they jumped on the iphone train as soon as it was obvious it wasn't going away AND was being infiltrated and conducting mass purges of old gaurd largely former netscape employees.. then they went full google subserviant and now are barely relevant
16:48:08 <CaptainTobin> except as google's almost completely reliable second vote at whatwg
16:48:33 <LoadingUser> ... but maybe kinda theoretical)
16:49:26 <CaptainTobin> nothing Firefox has today (except overcomplicated syntax sugar in js from es6+) and css features they had in another form before Firefox ever saw 1.0
16:49:31 <CaptainTobin> that's the big kicker here LoadingUser
16:50:01 <CaptainTobin> there is very little actually NEW except shoving os and media player features in
16:50:22 <CaptainTobin> JUST like excel is almost still entirely laid out like god damned visicalc
16:50:40 <CaptainTobin> about the best advancements spredsheets have gotten was a fuckin MOUSE POINTER
16:51:24 <CaptainTobin> we are so far behind and the advanced but fucked tech we do have is either to abuse us all or has built in obselecence
16:51:27 <CaptainTobin> or both
16:51:55 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: so yes i do understand just maybe not expressing it the same as you do when i talk about thise .. whatever we have allowed to be done
16:52:06 <LoadingUser> They're identical at the UX level
16:52:37 <CaptainTobin> well now we have to have post-WIMP and desktop metaphore being pushed everywhere
16:52:44 <CaptainTobin> plus moble touch on top
16:54:11 <CaptainTobin> and the thing is.. it will always be inferior to real computers and traditional interfaces and they know that.. a device is only as truely powerful as someone's ability to use it.. and with only a couple buttons per "app" for a device that is several orders of magnitude more advanced than computers were when the iphone came out.. and yet it is limited.
16:55:01 <CaptainTobin> and because it will always be as such so any moron can use it and not break it (unless breaking and buying a new one is core feature) they MUST kill traditional and advanced interfaces and capabilities
16:55:07 <frg_Away> CaptainTobin Hi
16:55:14 <CaptainTobin> it's a fuckin constructed manipulation NOT natural evolution
16:55:20 <CaptainTobin> and THAT is what pisses me off
16:55:23 <LoadingUser> Yes, discrete device hits the same bandwidth problem as discrete person.
16:55:36 <CaptainTobin> and once more it is constructed manipulation directly opposing me and i simply can't let that go lol
16:56:13 <frg_Away> kepp it civil all. In any case it will neither of us do any good. We will nto change the web. But I increasingly don't care about it any longer too.
16:58:05 <CaptainTobin> frg_Away: there are hints at a coming shift to pivot back .. beyond this little token show the past year.. they are testing the waters to see how badly the blowback is gonna be if they change course after years of trying to shove shit like this down our throats.. it gives me a little more hope but there are forces out there that want the new insanity rather than our slightly older but functioning insanity
16:58:15 <CaptainTobin> but i'll tone it down a touch tho
16:58:16 <CaptainTobin> sorry
16:58:21 <LoadingUser> frg: but your attitude is the main offense here
16:59:27 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: frg isn't actually the freak i spent more than base effort to make him out to be because I disagreed with him.. THERE IS A LESSON.. LEARN IT cause it sucks when you don't.. trust me
17:00:47 <LoadingUser> Sane software can exist
17:00:52 <CaptainTobin> a lot of the time frg_Away is simply.. busy and has to be very choosy about the fights he gets involved in.. me not so much lol
17:01:04 <LoadingUser> We can't afford to pretend otherwise
17:01:24 <CaptainTobin> true but also know too much forward motion pushing a point has drawbacks
17:01:28 <LoadingUser> Literally, the market can't handle it.
17:01:38 <LoadingUser> Because shootings
17:01:41 <CaptainTobin> your point is logged and I appreciate it dude
17:02:32 <LoadingUser> Oppression has horrifying consequences beyond base absence of immortal trajectory
17:02:33 <CaptainTobin> you can seek me out and we can talk about this some more over in a less someone elses living room if you want
17:03:54 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: can't agree more but still some are busy and have to pick and choose others aren't simply ready to hear a lot of this yet so i suggest you do as I do and just include bits and pieces as it relates to a mroe on topic point.. more effort but less disintrest if not screetching
17:03:56 <CaptainTobin> :)
17:04:01 <LoadingUser> The point is best suited here
17:04:09 <LoadingUser> It affects development
17:04:21 <frg_Away> LoadingUser My times of one against the world are over. I avoid google or other crap as much as I can. 99% of the users don't care.
17:04:40 <LoadingUser> UX has relevance if users do
17:04:59 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: right... ok if you think changing #seamonkey by MERE bitching about shit that is wrong or sucks is gonna do anything.. I have over 10 years to prove it won't.
17:05:05 <CaptainTobin> you have to DO more
17:05:11 <CaptainTobin> right frg_Away
17:05:27 <CaptainTobin> ?
17:05:40 <LoadingUser> I said "help me"
17:05:57 <CaptainTobin> help me help you help us all
17:06:01 <CaptainTobin> :)
17:06:17 <LoadingUser> I understand the relevant work, I'm not talking generic support
17:07:23 <CaptainTobin> big mozilla is a myth tho
17:07:32 <CaptainTobin> big mozilla is google's token competition
17:07:50 <CaptainTobin> and mozilla largely doesn't matter anymore
17:08:07 <CaptainTobin> everything that made them unique and special has been cooped, stripped, replaced, refactored, or removed
17:08:16 <CaptainTobin> mozilla is done
17:08:18 <LoadingUser> GLaDOS followed her programming optimally, #notable
17:08:31 <LoadingUser> #notabug*
17:10:01 <CaptainTobin> SeaMonkey still has some ways forward tho i am more doubious of it but i want to at least see if i can help poke it along now and again.. the real fight tho against the chrome clones and The Exact Same(tm) pretty much was lost when shit happened at Pale Moon .. now everyone is fractured at least the visionaries and the big picture thinkers
17:10:32 <CaptainTobin> so just coming to irc and asking to help save from big mozilla ain't really something that can even HAVE a proper answer or call to action FOR
17:10:38 <CaptainTobin> as they are all but irrelevant
17:11:14 <CaptainTobin> but it was not the first browser war and won't be the last
17:12:02 <Substance> CaptainTobin: I'm one device from bitching about getting XULRunner working in #chatzilla
17:12:20 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:12:21 <Substance> I like the Mozilla platform
17:12:31 <Substance> I like design
17:12:38 <CaptainTobin> it hasn't been the Mozilla platform since 2008
17:12:51 <CaptainTobin> seamonkey is direct evidence of that
17:13:04 <CaptainTobin> comm-central is just a concentration camp that lost funding
17:13:20 <Substance> It's the one platform with extensibility of any useful variety I can justify
17:13:33 <Substance> And this place isn't dead.
17:13:51 <CaptainTobin> Substance: SeaMonkey isn't the only existing xul effort
17:13:56 <CaptainTobin> if it stays xul in the end
17:15:03 <CaptainTobin> the Moonchild-related projects by those people are still contuning i am doing my shit.. frg is keeping seamonkey together.. there are also the old mac versions but those aren't really updated properly just kept running.. and waterfox classic is banadoned but still not the only effort in town
17:16:00 <CaptainTobin> waterfox classic doesn't matetr much because frg and uxp/aura runtime have all exceeded it in most respects
17:16:24 <CaptainTobin> i dunno why people didn't see it being slowly abandoned when the adclick company promised to keep it going
17:16:45 <CaptainTobin> but waterfox fans have been dupped by golden boy alex since 2009
17:16:48 <LoadingUser> It's all memes
17:16:51 <CaptainTobin> and they don't seem to mind
17:17:26 <CaptainTobin> i miss ratty
17:17:29 <CaptainTobin> :(
17:17:44 <LoadingUser> Focus.
17:17:53 <CaptainTobin> don't give me orders lol
17:17:56 <CaptainTobin> I'm the Captain!
17:18:20 <LoadingUser> But captains also take orders >:(
17:18:24 <CaptainTobin> I don't subscribe to the concept of "memes"
17:18:33 <CaptainTobin> i do enjoy an occasional image macro
17:18:41 <LoadingUser> Thank you
17:18:50 <CaptainTobin> but not much more.. kinda came into popularity after my time
17:18:57 <CaptainTobin> there are a few that have meaning to me
17:19:01 <CaptainTobin> such as Steamed Hams
17:19:23 <CaptainTobin> but who doesn't love the golden era of the simpsons
17:19:51 <CaptainTobin> and the sheer creativity of most the the steamed ham reference and parody videos was VERY high
17:20:00 <CaptainTobin> as was the writing of the orginal episode
17:20:04 <CaptainTobin> of course LoadingUser
17:20:33 <LoadingUser> Creativity is oversaturated
17:20:53 <CaptainTobin> i tend to prefer references especially indirect rather than memetic mutation
17:20:53 <LoadingUser> (kinda like the market)
17:21:12 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: creativity is almost nonexistant
17:21:19 <CaptainTobin> have you LOOKED at a logo or icon lately?
17:21:33 <LoadingUser> There's creative work on basically any idea, to the point people, well...
17:21:46 <CaptainTobin> here drink this food coloring and take a shit.. look its the new edge logo!
17:21:57 <CaptainTobin> or new firefox logo
17:22:19 <LoadingUser> I'd guess most people have some kind of memory with someone dressed as the American flag
17:22:58 <CaptainTobin> well it ain't ideas so much as directives and threats
17:23:01 <CaptainTobin> is it?
17:24:46 <LoadingUser> Which brings me here
17:25:12 <LoadingUser> Good software can justify immortality
17:26:44 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: PM, query, IM whatever they call it on whatever you are using
17:44:37 <LoadingUser> Cenobites is accurate
17:45:02 <LoadingUser> Ignoring UX does mean inflicting pain somewhere
17:46:34 <LoadingUser> Different developers idealize discussion differently
17:47:21 <LoadingUser> Which would be better for discussing design goals?
17:47:33 <LoadingUser> Bugzilla?
17:48:44 <CaptainTobin> lol
17:48:51 <CaptainTobin> LoadingUser: look up tabs on top bug
17:49:02 <CaptainTobin> and then tell me bugzilla is a good place for this
17:49:22 <LoadingUser> I don't personally think it can be
17:58:17 <frg_Away> That reminds me https://badspot.us/img/Brown-Ring/Dilbert-Brown-Ring-of-Quality.gif
18:01:27 <CaptainTobin> Yes.
18:41:35 <billc1023> need help to COMPLETELY UNINSTALL ALL REMAINING VESTIGES OF SEA MONKEY--TEXTS KEEP POPING UP INSTEAD OF ITEMS SELECTED. PLEASE HELP billc1023⊙gc
18:42:35 <tomman> I suggest nuking your computer from orbit, just to be safe
18:42:50 <tomman> ...oh, hope that it was what he did
19:06:36 <frg_Away> Call 0-900-UNINSTALL and ask for Babs
19:25:33 <njsg> ... "texts keep poping up instead of items selected", wait what
19:33:00 <njsg> CaptainTobin: by "old mac versions" you mean tenfourfox?
19:33:16 <CaptainTobin> shit
19:33:36 <CaptainTobin> am i operating on obsolete and extremely bias info again njsg
19:36:25 <njsg> Just wondering what were you alluding to exactly, for old macOS versions I only know about Cameron Kaiser's project.
20:00:27 <CaptainTobin> classiczilla and tenfourfox
20:00:44 <CaptainTobin> but i haven't checked if tenfourfox got past 45 or not
20:04:33 <LoadingUser> I technically don't need more than 3.5 for standards compatibility
20:09:22 <CaptainTobin> what standards lol
20:10:07 <LoadingUser> frg: say I had a blank check for $850 million
20:10:41 <LoadingUser> Would this be good or bad for morale?
20:16:20 <frg_Away> LoadingUser Money is one thing. You would still need good management. See mozilla. They have lots of money but not the management. So money is only part of the solution.
20:21:28 <LoadingUser> But I'm saying you're the solution... #<
20:28:32 <tomman> no! don't send frg to San Francisco! :D
20:28:55 <tomman> (or anywhere near California)
20:29:47 <LoadingUser> You don't need payroll to be part of Mozilla
20:31:00 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35235732
20:31:02 <tomman> "MailChimp blacklists your IP if you open the browser's dev tools"
20:31:06 <tomman> OK, now this is a war crime
20:32:14 <frg_Away> Fortunately I have a good job and can continue as a hobbyist.
20:32:21 <tomman> but yeah, I was afraid that this day would come: when a website would detect that you were using the devtools, and consequently ban you (or something)
20:34:03 <frg_Away> tomman just press the gitlab login buttion. They did built their own denial of service attack. I let it run for a few hours in a vm. A-holes.
20:40:21 <LoadingUser> How much of the API would you need to fake for it to submit a ban?
21:05:47 <njsg> 0320|20:27:44 <+tomman> "MailChimp blacklists your IP if you open the browser's dev tools"
21:05:55 * njsg headdesks repeatedly
21:06:29 <njsg> anyway, isn't that one of these companies in the business of sending unreadable web addresses in email messages on purpose?
21:07:37 <njsg> but hopefully it'll be addressed, as a ticket has been opened in Ycombinator's web 2.0 webapp support request tracker :-P
21:24:21 <LoadingUser> Can AdBlock probe POST data or can you bypass it with a URL param?
23:08:52 <GrannyGoose> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3108669