Help me save the internet from Big Mozilla

Current use-case meta: Tablet > Fennec (F-Droid) > Kiwi

"Big Mozilla" went bust, the rage is all Big Chrome~

But rage is the opposite of better software

"better software" stopped being the goal many, MANY years ago

otherwise we would not be using smartphones (some of us under duress) for nearly everything

Ah-ha! So you admit software is being developed!

I also admit blue is still a color :D

Moddability is actually my immediate UX "concern"

yeah, big blue

Big Blue is now Big Blockchain™

big blue removed whatever rule they had that still allowed accessing non-js content on some of their pages with specific UA strings

oh wow

I guess they want those OS/2 machines gone forever :/

Script managed content isn't inherently bad, it just needs an appropriate side-channel to restore functionality.

yeah, no

if you're forcing people to download an execute several megabytes of JS framework toxic hellstew just to read a help file (composed of STATIC content), you're a criminal

if you download a page made of good ol' static HTML+CSS, and append to it 1MB of JSON to /rewrite the entire page contents from scratch on load/ (just to make the entire DOM tree vanish because your browser doesn't happen to support the latest Chrome JS feature deployed on last week alpha), you deserve to have a Minuteman deployed into your workstation

Okay yeah, uhh, defense qualifies as a problem

definitely*

"the web browser as an OS" and "frameworks everywhere" (and even "web compilers") paradigms are what led us to this mess

of course you tell that to webdevs and they promptly dismiss you with "healthy ecosystem" and "innovation" content-free BS

Yes those are all UX terrors

because we totally need emoji regexes and client-side frameworks just to fill a form /s

At this point I feel that we would achieve little nuking Chrome, as the problem is now with webkids pushing raw untested Github commits to production

sanity is no longer valued as a skill :/

Actually,  those three forms are good examples of overengineering, since they're each meant to solve both other problems.

"Overengineering" is the key word here, and that's how the modern web is built

"it works on my new shiny Mac running Chrome Canary, let's push to production and wait for that sweet, sweet VC money~!"

Yes, please stop restating the problem, I already feel bad enough as it is.

What I want to say is that it's time to tell webdevs to STOP, and start pushing backwards

pick simple and sensible over shiny and bloaty

start looking at the big picture, and that includes your users AND the device ecosystem

Well they'll have to fairly soon since I did generalize a system for making illicit use of any system which doesn't moderate POST requests

I don't oppose to sensible progress - if a feature makes my life easier as a dev without turning my users life into a living hell, by all means bake it into the standard

but if the sole reason for a feature to exist is because "hey, it's new and it helps to pad my resume", well... we're doomed

Yes resume padding is a qualifiable X-risk and global TODO for post-scarcity.

Stagnant wealth detected

at least it wasn't saved on Silicon Valley Bank :D

Wealth conflict: Consult Chaos documentation

tomman: I'd say a chief problem nowadays is the "bake it into the standard" part

yes, you can add new features, you can specify them, these can be included in a versioned standard, with some way to know whether it's implemented according to it or not

that's sometimes not done, see fetch()

the rest of it (non-standardized or too new features being relied on, effectively restricting the audience to a few specific browsers) is pretty much browser wars from the 90s IMHO

njsg: yea, but even MS wasn't THAT evil in the '90s

intentionally broken HTML/CSS implementations, a few vendor-specific extensions, and of course the nightmare of ActiveX

and at some point they just let everything rot because "we're too big to fall"

compare with the Chromeweb, where "booting the Linux kernel in a tab" is now considered a core feature, and we have dozens of new features with every release, most of them bloaty and pointless

"see, we never stop innovating unlike those dinosaurs at Micro-Soft!", obviously that earns the goodwill of eager hipster devs, unlike old boring ActiveX which you nearly had to use it at gunpoint :D

but can it run MS Agent on the browser without ActiveX or VBS?

well, someone somewhere is either reimplementing it, or even worse, virtualizing it on Webassembly!

soon we'll be able to emulate ActiveX controls!

Oh good, better you than me.

we can already boot Windows 95 on a browser, FWIW

the only missing piece of the puzzle is a Javascript native CPU, of course

I can port my vulnerability actualizer to 95

Alternative: I have polyfill for native code functions.

(Also in FF)

So I can run Netscape in a tab, but native ChatZilla doesn't conform with market goals?

if your chat app doesn't involve a bloated Electron app for cellphones and PCs, a total ban on 3rd-party clients, a fairly abrasive ToS, backdoors for the Three Axis of Evil, and a complete lack of customer support, yes, you're not conforming to market goals

also don't forget the paid emojis

Right.

So ownership of a content space is currently maligned against all life.

Activism fails too

Active services technician!

So firefox is a parasite project under the Mozilla architecture

firefox is white supremecy in communist form.

I am sure there is no way THAT sentence can be taken out of context lol

Actually worse for UX if there's any project lacking a dedicated IRC channel.

irc ain't popular

and irc bridges to web chat services like matrix are very very very pathetic and spotty

Popularity isn't immortality

I MAY do something about that but let's get what I know i can accomplish done first before illusions of theory

I haven't discussed theory.

hai frg_Away how are you my good and dear friend

LoadingUser: critical chrome theory?

i don't want that taught to my children!

if i had children

i wouldn't want critical Chrome theory taught to them LoadingUser

Scroll all the way back, my point doesn't exist in another place

LoadingUser: READING?! in 2023

you are clearly delusional.

please report to a medical professional

gimmy a few lol

I'm here for an actual reason, not direct harassment.

wasn't MEANING to harrass you dude

i'd let you know if i was

yeah no i feel your pain with the current state of things

I am TRYING to do something about it but it is difficult

well we all are in our ways

It's worse than pain

complete slavory, death and destruction?

yeah

Pain has the redeeming quality of being something you can feel

pain is JUST the begining

eh?

Toxic UX is a problem case beyond mere pain

It's existential

well tell people to stop allowing effectively cenobites to dictate to us

LoadingUser: you can FEEL how the total disgust ozzes from post-modern UX

and bullshit as a service?

BaaS, ah, let this acronym die.

(Actually I have recent philosophical work refuting the BaaS

webapps.. jsapps node.. chrome.. whatwg mse eme webcomponents including es modules shadowdom and customelements all shit Mozilla did 20 years ago and BETTER than anyone else including Microsoft.. but they jumped on the iphone train as soon as it was obvious it wasn't going away AND was being infiltrated and conducting mass purges of old gaurd largely former netscape employees.. then they went full google subserviant and now are barely relevant

except as google's almost completely reliable second vote at whatwg

... but maybe kinda theoretical)

nothing Firefox has today (except overcomplicated syntax sugar in js from es6+) and css features they had in another form before Firefox ever saw 1.0

that's the big kicker here LoadingUser

there is very little actually NEW except shoving os and media player features in

JUST like excel is almost still entirely laid out like god damned visicalc

about the best advancements spredsheets have gotten was a fuckin MOUSE POINTER

we are so far behind and the advanced but fucked tech we do have is either to abuse us all or has built in obselecence

or both

LoadingUser: so yes i do understand just maybe not expressing it the same as you do when i talk about thise .. whatever we have allowed to be done

They're identical at the UX level

well now we have to have post-WIMP and desktop metaphore being pushed everywhere

plus moble touch on top

and the thing is.. it will always be inferior to real computers and traditional interfaces and they know that.. a device is only as truely powerful as someone's ability to use it.. and with only a couple buttons per "app" for a device that is several orders of magnitude more advanced than computers were when the iphone came out.. and yet it is limited.

and because it will always be as such so any moron can use it and not break it (unless breaking and buying a new one is core feature) they MUST kill traditional and advanced interfaces and capabilities

CaptainTobin Hi

it's a fuckin constructed manipulation NOT natural evolution

and THAT is what pisses me off

Yes, discrete device hits the same bandwidth problem as discrete person.

and once more it is constructed manipulation directly opposing me and i simply can't let that go lol

kepp it civil all. In any case it will neither of us do any good. We will nto change the web. But I increasingly don't care about it any longer too.

frg_Away: there are hints at a coming shift to pivot back .. beyond this little token show the past year.. they are testing the waters to see how badly the blowback is gonna be if they change course after years of trying to shove shit like this down our throats.. it gives me a little more hope but there are forces out there that want the new insanity rather than our slightly older but functioning insanity

but i'll tone it down a touch tho

sorry

frg: but your attitude is the main offense here

LoadingUser: frg isn't actually the freak i spent more than base effort to make him out to be because I disagreed with him.. THERE IS A LESSON.. LEARN IT cause it sucks when you don't.. trust me

Sane software can exist

a lot of the time frg_Away is simply.. busy and has to be very choosy about the fights he gets involved in.. me not so much lol

We can't afford to pretend otherwise

true but also know too much forward motion pushing a point has drawbacks

Literally, the market can't handle it.

Because shootings

your point is logged and I appreciate it dude

Oppression has horrifying consequences beyond base absence of immortal trajectory

you can seek me out and we can talk about this some more over in a less someone elses living room if you want

LoadingUser: can't agree more but still some are busy and have to pick and choose others aren't simply ready to hear a lot of this yet so i suggest you do as I do and just include bits and pieces as it relates to a mroe on topic point.. more effort but less disintrest if not screetching

:)

The point is best suited here

It affects development

LoadingUser My times of one against the world are over. I avoid google or other crap as much as I can. 99% of the users don't care.

UX has relevance if users do

LoadingUser: right... ok if you think changing #seamonkey by MERE bitching about shit that is wrong or sucks is gonna do anything.. I have over 10 years to prove it won't.

you have to DO more

right frg_Away

?

I said "help me"

help me help you help us all

:)

I understand the relevant work, I'm not talking generic support

big mozilla is a myth tho

big mozilla is google's token competition

and mozilla largely doesn't matter anymore

everything that made them unique and special has been cooped, stripped, replaced, refactored, or removed

mozilla is done

GLaDOS followed her programming optimally, #notable

#notabug*

SeaMonkey still has some ways forward tho i am more doubious of it but i want to at least see if i can help poke it along now and again.. the real fight tho against the chrome clones and The Exact Same(tm) pretty much was lost when shit happened at Pale Moon .. now everyone is fractured at least the visionaries and the big picture thinkers

so just coming to irc and asking to help save from big mozilla ain't really something that can even HAVE a proper answer or call to action FOR

as they are all but irrelevant

but it was not the first browser war and won't be the last

CaptainTobin: I'm one device from bitching about getting XULRunner working in #chatzilla

lol

I like the Mozilla platform

I like design

it hasn't been the Mozilla platform since 2008

seamonkey is direct evidence of that

comm-central is just a concentration camp that lost funding

It's the one platform with extensibility of any useful variety I can justify

And this place isn't dead.

Substance: SeaMonkey isn't the only existing xul effort

if it stays xul in the end

the Moonchild-related projects by those people are still contuning i am doing my shit.. frg is keeping seamonkey together.. there are also the old mac versions but those aren't really updated properly just kept running.. and waterfox classic is banadoned but still not the only effort in town

waterfox classic doesn't matetr much because frg and uxp/aura runtime have all exceeded it in most respects

i dunno why people didn't see it being slowly abandoned when the adclick company promised to keep it going

but waterfox fans have been dupped by golden boy alex since 2009

It's all memes

and they don't seem to mind

i miss ratty

:(

Focus.

don't give me orders lol

I'm the Captain!

But captains also take orders >:(

I don't subscribe to the concept of "memes"

i do enjoy an occasional image macro

Thank you

but not much more.. kinda came into popularity after my time

there are a few that have meaning to me

such as Steamed Hams

but who doesn't love the golden era of the simpsons

and the sheer creativity of most the the steamed ham reference and parody videos was VERY high

as was the writing of the orginal episode

of course LoadingUser

Creativity is oversaturated

i tend to prefer references especially indirect rather than memetic mutation

(kinda like the market)

LoadingUser: creativity is almost nonexistant

have you LOOKED at a logo or icon lately?

There's creative work on basically any idea, to the point people, well...

here drink this food coloring and take a shit.. look its the new edge logo!

or new firefox logo

I'd guess most people have some kind of memory with someone dressed as the American flag

well it ain't ideas so much as directives and threats

is it?

Which brings me here

Good software can justify immortality

LoadingUser: PM, query, IM whatever they call it on whatever you are using

Cenobites is accurate

Ignoring UX does mean inflicting pain somewhere

Different developers idealize discussion differently

Which would be better for discussing design goals?

Bugzilla?

lol

LoadingUser: look up tabs on top bug

and then tell me bugzilla is a good place for this

I don't personally think it can be

That reminds me badspot.us/img/Brown-Ring/Dilbert-Brown-Ring-of-Quality.gif

Yes.

need help to COMPLETELY UNINSTALL ALL REMAINING VESTIGES OF SEA MONKEY--TEXTS KEEP POPING UP INSTEAD OF ITEMS SELECTED. PLEASE HELP billc1023⊙gc

I suggest nuking your computer from orbit, just to be safe

...oh, hope that it was what he did

Call 0-900-UNINSTALL and ask for Babs

... "texts keep poping up instead of items selected", wait what

CaptainTobin: by "old mac versions" you mean tenfourfox?

shit

am i operating on obsolete and extremely bias info again njsg

Just wondering what were you alluding to exactly, for old macOS versions I only know about Cameron Kaiser's project.

classiczilla and tenfourfox

but i haven't checked if tenfourfox got past 45 or not

I technically don't need more than 3.5 for standards compatibility

what standards lol

frg: say I had a blank check for $850 million

Would this be good or bad for morale?

LoadingUser Money is one thing. You would still need good management. See mozilla. They have lots of money but not the management. So money is only part of the solution.

But I'm saying you're the solution... #<

no! don't send frg to San Francisco! :D

(or anywhere near California)

You don't need payroll to be part of Mozilla

"MailChimp blacklists your IP if you open the browser's dev tools"

OK, now this is a war crime

Fortunately I have a good job and can continue as a hobbyist.

but yeah, I was afraid that this day would come: when a website would detect that you were using the devtools, and consequently ban you (or something)

tomman just press the gitlab login buttion. They did built their own denial of service attack. I let it run for a few hours in a vm. A-holes.

How much of the API would you need to fake for it to submit a ban?

0320|20:27:44 <+tomman> "MailChimp blacklists your IP if you open the browser's dev tools"

anyway, isn't that one of these companies in the business of sending unreadable web addresses in email messages on purpose?

but hopefully it'll be addressed, as a ticket has been opened in Ycombinator's web 2.0 webapp support request tracker :-P

Can AdBlock probe POST data or can you bypass it with a URL param?