WG9s: indeed.. thank you fro that tidbit

while I will have visual studio 2022 installed on here when I reformat i really don't want to ahve to have that as a requirement..

most people who want to build the code never open visual studio and i want some additional choices for building so if the tools alone plus redist is sufficient.. then wonderful

i build using clang-cl

which momes with mozilla build

you also need the sdk

from VS

i only eve opn visual studio to update it bt it usually only updates tings i do not use

WG9s: FYI: The L64 build announced by email as "completed Tue Jan 31 18:26:12 EST 2023" has a date of 2023-01-29 22:00 on the HTML page wg9s.com/comm-253 but its bz2 file length is different from what I downloaded in the morning of 30 January.

WG9s: P.S. Build ID 20230129220006

tonymec|away: not sure why it shoul have a different length. It should have been built from the identical source.

there was not supposed to be new build last night but I screwed up again.

tonymec|away: was supposed to only be doing a test macOS build

ah, OK.

real question WG9s is how can I alter the build system so it will accept build tools if full vs isn't there

vswhere isn't actually coded to consider the build tools AS visual studio for some reason they say is a feature not a bug

tho i did get a successful build

hmm not sure I have always isntalled vs even thought i really do not use it.

well i am thinking more along the lines of using a clean VM to actually produce my shipped binaries again

i used to do that

but other things became more important

my system is always clean but it was that extra level of assurance.. by having the VM isolated from the host to a good degree and upload direct from vm to server

i mena i have always done that for linux

but winders

and if i can get away with JUST the build tools on a windows 7 vm that means my overhead is only a gig above libevil linking

if i have to use windows 10 it will be twice that

yes i could use server core but then i have a crippled experience

and if i remove a bunch of components.. yes the base windows system works but most of the shit is now tied into twinui tied into dwm so even if you go as far as explorer not being the shell.. you literally can't access half the shit in windows 10.. and 75% in latest windows 11.. in fact if you want to do ANYTHING important outside of an mmc snapin or the registry or the tabbed dialog control panel applets of old you simply can't without explorer

running IN SHELL MODE

so yes you can TECHNICALLY EVEN IN 11 BYPASS ALL THE MODERN HORSESHIT after inital setup

BUT you loose almost complete control over your system in the process

cause there ain't much left

not infected

this is why what I am shifting to will be important least in my view

rejoice i won't be in the market of competing with you with a huge chunk of your own frontend application anymore!

CaptainTobin there were some changes in the build system where it now calls the external vswhere. I am not sure if I ported the detection of the build tools too. Usually just install selected components blow away all vctip.exe binaries and everything in the folder servicehub. Then vs2019 quiets down. IDE no longer works but don't care.

as far as I know the build tools are a supplement license so to comply fully you technically need the base license. Not that anyone cares if you don't get one for community and only do open source I suspect.

i think MCP might be violating some terms by putting vswhere inside of the codebase

at least not putting it in other-licenses

but he doesn't want to maintain a mozillabuild package

i am gonna because i also want additional tools

yeah

still i would like to make it capable of using both the tools and the full vs

if you consider the windows crazy looking to compile him self is MORE likely doing it for them selves not actual development.. so just having the tools, modified mozillabuild package, build and go and don't even need to worry about redist in that case cause they already have the cpp runtime on their machine

but there has to be a better solution that makes it as easy as it was before but allows latest installed vs and vsbuildtools

sucks it is early in mozconfigure and not just ac-configure.. i'd have that sorted in 20 minutes

CaptainTobin: sorry like I say I install VS but do not actually ever run it.

i just sue the SDK and redist dir

i use it OCCASIONALLY

VERY OCCASIONALLY

but it would be nice to not have to choose either or

i should be able to use both

hell except for crash dumps visual studio is pretty fuckin useless for us as mozdevs unless you use the ide to code in of course

i hate mozconfigure

so if it has to be there for a build to work I was not ever even aware of that

i mena it LOOKS like i can simply add another for loop just dup and alter.. but this flow is confusing me..

guess will just have to TRY AND SEE

not in the def but how this relates to anything else

it is why i hate mozconfigure and python by people who think they are smart but aint

i copy the resdist dir to aanother location a refeence it from there i guess it might be using the vs install directory to find the sdk to use

why the hell can't the batch file call vswhere and just populate the same damned vars it always did

i will likely just bundle the redist files with vswhere in my custom mozillabuild package

and put the mapi includes there too

well maybe not that

but still

i copy the mapi includes and redist not sure how it finds the sdk

the mapi includes are now in the codebase for everyone but mcp i believe

tho a200 might have done that i haven't looked

WG9s: how it finds the SDK depends on the codebase

differences between versions

and mcp isn't the same as 52 anymore

even more so now since they did the vswhere shit

and i use the clang-cl that is installed by mach bootstrap

so it isn't as simple as following the mozbugs for me i have to deal with what and how they did relating to what I did in the past

well i simply won't use clang period

unless someone fully funds me a powerful apple workstation whatever they have that is closest to that class anyway

then I will use clang.. on macos

i believe in prevailing system compilers being best

gcc broadly on linux, msvc on winders, and whatever apple has

that IS a matter of experience informing opinion

and one that ain't universal

and as we know WG9s a significant enough change or even a build system rejigger can throw out current day stats on whatever compiler it is atm

well using clang makes debugging and crahreporter better. clang and rust are just both different front end parser things for the actual code generator for which they both use llvm so for rut and c and c++ code in one executable better to use clang because then using the same code generator and linker for everything

one change may make it compile great on clang everywhere another change may favor platform compilers across the board

it just comes down to what you are producing, how, and just what the real world result actually is in that regard

just saying if some of the code is in rust better to use clang

there is no rust

if i have to include rust.. then the project all projects end

I will NOT work with that shit.

clang and rust are just the front end parser part of the compiler the real comiling happens in llvm and better to use that for both rust and c

betetr

better based on what?

what makes clang better for what I specifically want to do

why is it better than visual studio and gcc for my specific case

and tell me WG9s just how many times have you compiled an evolved 52 on windows and linux with clang

and where do i get this all inclusive package that I can just use without changing anything?

becuase you are now using the same compiler for both the rust and c code so debugging works better becuase the debugger only needs ot understand what llvm builds vs what llvm builds for rust and what gcc builds for c same with crashreporter and definitily works better for PGO but then I have no use for PGO so I don;t care about that

what rust code?

what crashreporter

what pgo

the large protions of mozilla that is written in rust

good for mozilla

luckily I escaped that fate

i cont really care about crashreporter but others do

not unscaved but still pretty well intact

i thought it was seamonkey you wre trying to build?

who?

who cares about crash reporter

other than Mozilla them selves

large prtions are in rust

show me

parts or the mozilla code that is written in rust is actully chromium code that is written in rust

well show me dude

where in my codebase is the rust code

aside from left over stubs that most never did anything anyway

ipc is a nasty piece of code btw

WG9s: xr.binaryoutcast.com/aura-central/find?string=\.rs

;)

leftovers nothing more

*I* Do not require nor employ rust nor have any intention to do so.

CaptainTobin: I never liked the ipc code has to do with why mozilla dropped the old type extensions. they wanted to to soemthing like ipc and what google did did not work with the legacy extensions.

they STARTED on their own IPC loosely based off a decent little project

but then scrapped it for google

but mozilla had no clue how to do this on their own so just snagged the google code

and scrapped their other shit for google

yes

and all of this happened between 2008 and 2009

the UX Team taking over firefox, firefox becoming the ONLY priority, mobile bullshit, literally everything comes down toa fundamental shift in mozilla that basically lead us all to today

yes making the desktop interface look more like the iPhone

but regardless yeah my point going forward is NOT making a web browser that can actually compete with google.. that is a lost cause for the moment .. i want to focus on the classical technologies and all they can do in ALTERNITIVE to the OpenWeb agenda

and shit as a service operating bullshit

I am not building an integrated internet suite either.. what I am doing is far more grand in vision than one kind of client or class of suite

I am going for broke.. a core extensable operating environment .. initally tabbed-based.

well you know google chrome only exists becuase mozilla pissed off Ben Goodger He was the lead engineer on Firefox form back when it was still call Phoenix. and when they pissed him off he left to go to google and then they have CHrome

i was not aware of that specific tidbit interesting

well early chrome was a good little browser served a particular couple of core reasons to exist.. spite, web platform testing, basic minimal browser to chip away at IE some more.. seemed like it was fine

THEN CHROME BECAME THE GOOGLE AS MUCH AS SEARCH AND ADS ARE

Back in the day were about 4 of us worked on Thunderbird in the early days. Scott McGreggor was the lead but mostly worked on the UI. Dave mose worked on the mailnews backend I cknd of did a bit of each and also was trying to help Dave to get the impa code to work with more imap server the original code only really worked with one impa server that once and actual imap standard came about...

...ws noreally stadard comliant.

and then there was arvid who did the icons for the theme

but the shit that google did then and mozilla did soon after and that microsoft and apple got to do more of.. brings us all here where i have to dump my plans and start with a new idea to basically create 90% of a shell or desktop environment in extensiable xul

WG9s: can you explain why Thunderbird despite wanting to chase Firefox UX never really focused on making their application specific code cohesive.. it is a very bizare mix of pseudo-xpfe, overlays, protojsms, etc

it's a god damned mess

so then mozilla decided they did not want to support this as a tier 1 product and wanted to make it more community supported and gave use 3 choices for how we wanted to proceed asked us to vote and we unamioulsy pcied one of the 3 choices they presented and they said tough shit you picked the wrong one. Scott immediately quit mozilla and he and Ben were good friends and I think this is why...

then again unlike Firefox Thunderbird actually DID Decend from the mailnews ui

...he left soon after.

Firefox was constructed using bits and pieces

WG9s: have you written about this stuff

so the guy who i am not sure he is still at google but was the chrome guy when it came about was the former firefox guy at mozilla.

cause someone needs to really construct a look into what really happened during that era when everyone was obsessed with finally getting their iphones after the first few years

WG9s: anyway it is my belief that rust servo clang and continued google is what has nearly obliterated a once great set of technologies

and i am not satisfied to try and hold the line simply to keep what i have going.. i want to create.. create new things.. new interpretations.. new concepts like succeeding where mozilla constantly botched the same few concepts repeatedly but everyone else seems to do fine..

rust and servo are the same thing. servo is the codename for rewtiing gecko in rust

not mobile tho

rust is the language servo is the gecko port/rewrite, stylo is the component to replace nsLayout

and there is spidermonkey infection too now

i know dude

well layout style

webrender seems to deal with the other layout bits as well as layers and accel

but not sure clang is bad gcc is kind of clunky and never desigend to do c++

little fuzzy on that tho

i am not saying clang is bad

but if it isn't it will be .. eventually.. but regardless.. i just feel that one compiler across disperate operating systems isn't as good as using the compiler that specialozes in that target os

especially when dealing with pre-quantum code which largely hasn;t seen clang outside osx and has no real testing in that configuration nor can I provide any nor do I have time to make it happen regardless

also i dont wanna

and clang seems more suited to being able to do cross compiles

WG9s: lol

which isuspect is why you say ok for osx becuase you are cross compiling for that?

no

which is why I can't properly support mac

i don't have the hardware nor a viable virtualization solution

y es so with clang i can use my linux clang compiler and set the target and get it to compile and link for macos

jusing gcc i would need a seperate compiler to do this

WG9s: compile the aura runtime environment with clang for windows by tomorrow morning and I will agree with you.

deal?

I like choice and so clang fits the bill. Not the first time one compiler is buggy and produces bad code. The reason clang is currently used for official Windows x86 is just this. But would still like to get rid of 32 bit builds :)

frg_Away: 32bit windows is becoming increasingly problimatic

across the board

and it is still only due to artifical limitations

if microsoft would release a patch for 7 and up removing the ram restriction from 32bit and wow64 .. we'd be fine

but they want it dead as much as everyone else does so they won't

windows just gets slower and slower becuase of the anti-virus overhead to the point were in my opinion 32-bit windows is too slow to be usable

as such next year when EL7 is dropped I will also drop gcc lower than 10, any possibility of vs older than what i use, and 32bit windows builds. Also i will NOT be introducing any NEW 32bit builds.. Also likely gonna drop gtk2 then as a produced build but leave it capable for a while longer

WG9s: what anti-virus overhead lol

i don't have windows defender

gone

lol

i got something else i can just run on demand

and i do manual scans

but the issue is the average user is so if you are doing win32 builds who is the actual customer?

people who would simply use the last version regardless because their old and insecure computer is important to them because their desktop icons are in a specific order

stuck on 3 gig of memeory max if your system supports it otherwise 2giig max system memory

WG9s: or did you want an answer that was less truthful but less offensive

lol

i did not find that offensive

Windows Defender is actually the best. Just get rid of the cloud crap stuff in it. Death to Smart screen and block on first sight!

and the other phone home tools in it.

Defender is fine but if i have it it finds a way to reactivate even tho i lock out the reg key, files, etc

i have to REMOVE it from the package store

so it CAN'T come back

group policies do it.

i don't even HATE all the modern shit i HATE lack of control and choice

frg_Away: not in windows 11

tamper protection can override group policy

bjt still i find 8 gig memory systems as slow as i want so sin32 can only use 2 gig if you have 4 unless your system supports the 3gig kludge thing but still e gig only p[er app

it did in the betas

so they can re-enable it

2 gig only per app

That is why I run Server 2019 :) 11 is crap on a new level.

I am gonna have to either stay on LTSC 2021 go back to 2019 or go linux and just write eveyrthing else in xul

i mean

at this point

it is coming to that

Server 2022 when you can get it cheap next.

And as a bonus: No Windows store in the server versions!

i was HOPING i could just get away with the free hyperv server core and remove the hyperv role put bblean on there and call it a day

i had an old 32 bit machine and gave up on running winows on it switched to linux and then gnome 3 showed up so I had to witch to a different than default desktop to get something that actually ran on it at a useful speed

BUT hyperv server core has its OLE crippled and without DWM gdi can BARELY function

it is in a trash heap someplace now.

nut yeah can you believe they crippled drag and drop and most of the clipboard

the ONLY drag and drop works is actually in winfile

cause i think its DnD predates OLE

so it does it its self

i dunno if normal server core is that crippled

back on win32 when it was slow i rember we called this drag until you drop becuase it was so slow you thought you would die before the drop actually completed.

I think all core versions are discontinued now but unsure.

plug and pray

yes another pne

one

frg_Away: well at this point none of the GUI is really functional even if present in server core at 11 so there is little point unless they include dwm and hack twinui to run without explorer its self

hmm so a nice bitchfest, but was there something useful we were discussing before we got off on this tangent?

oh btw without explorer as a shell.. windows 11 explorer goes back to windows 10 real explorer mode with a ribbon but gets badly busted

so eyus the new windows 11 shit is on top of previously good but now crippled interfaces

what insanity is that

windows is a doomed platform

that is my conclusion

I see nothing in windows 11 that is an improvement over windows 10

few kernel improvments.. same as 10 same as 8.1 same as 8

but everything else just makes it harder and harder

how does a company that produces very little that is actually new (tho often changed or crippled) can they still be in such power

unually i say overall is see more negative than positive in a new version and eventi=ually that kind of gets sorted but this time is every change seems to have just made things works going from win10 to win11

subserviant to google yes but why

i BARELY have Windows 10 LTSC in a state i can use it nearly identically as Windows 7

i don't think I will get Windows 11 in the same state

hell the control panel is crippled

and because the windows 11 UX is dynamically generated differently and overlayed/replaced on the windows 10 ux still using largely traditional means.. altering the traditional means doesn't eman you will SEE any difference when Windows can just decide to replace entire swaths of UI on the fly with the compositor

WG9s: consider that

Well 2022 is just like 10 with a higher build level and support till 2031 imgur.com/a/3oBOtsH

a compositor that as of Windows 8 breaks winstation session boundries

TELL ME HOW THIS IS GOOD FRG

windows.. can now dyanmically and transparently replace client area UI bits wholesale through the desktop compositor

and i thought the Firefox UX Tour that breaks boundries between content and chrome was bad

oh and don;t tell me about windows composiros was a big thing i had to fix back in the firefox 4 days ahving to do with getting it to work correctly with multiple monitors.

and isn't that one of the things used to shit on xul.. remote chrome, altering ui.. They want the technology as much as we do.. they just want to be the ONLY ones that have it and benefit

it's like the radical portions of any cause

the real issue is they came up with this compositor thing that ws kind of a windows manger for applications, but for the auto hide taskbar thing to work correclty should have been doing the subtrack on for the number of lies the app could use but did not so every app had to figure out how to figure out what to do to make sure the auto hide and unhide the tasbe thing work but stood have been...

...taken care of by the compositor

they don't want equality or fairness.. they want supremecy .. they don't want peace or disarmerment or acceptabce they want to dominate as they have been dominated.

was epecially tricky if you had mutiple monitors and they had differeing screen resolutions and even worse if you had moved the taskbar to the secondary monitor

yeah

getting this all to wrok was my big contribution to getting firefox to work correctly on mutiple monitore under windows vista (which was ms latest debacle os at the time)

And the credgeview crap is now used internally and can't be uninstalled in 11. But doesn't matter. Linux is a 1000 different shards and macOS becoems an even smaller walled garden with apple proprietary hardware the future. So we can bitch all day and it will not even make a small dent in the universe.

so that is why i have a firsfox 4 beta team tshirt from the mozilla folk from back before they baned me from bugzilla

btw

webview2

comes with widevine

so there is that .. one person at microsoft got them to include it with it so devs that use it can get eme without having to beg google

so heh.. i have an idea

about that

not an orginal one mind you

but it could be good

a stupid thing where you can put the taskbar at diffent places on different screens but for some stupid assed readon hiding and unhiding only works if the taskbars is at screen bottom if you prevent the app from using the bottom row on the screen

i have noticed that windows is becoming really glitchy about z-order

applications change z-order strangely for no reason occasionaly when you hover over them and no I don't have that thing tat explicitly does that

taskbar vs fullscreen youtube fights

whereas even 4 months ago i never saw that

and this again is on LTSC

the so called STABLE one

With the concept of "xul applets" i could create such an applet that used ietab technology to call webview2 and bring that feature in as a browser applet as opposed to a navigator applet..

the webview2

in effect webview2 wrapped in an applet extension would allow modern web apps and general modern web browsing while navigator does what it is best at.. classic web and whatever modern shit can be added

again not a NEW concept but a new interpretation

in the face of a world where PWA is a thing that isn't Mozilla Prism

that is why this concept is so good.. it is a core .. that can do anything but isn't bent too far in any specific direction

THAT is what I will do to make my mark in XULvolution