01:17:29 <tomman> "Thank you for visiting nature.com. You are using a browser version with limited support for CSS. To obtain the best experience, we recommend you use a more up to date browser (or turn off compatibility mode in Internet Explorer). In the meantime, to ensure continued support, we are displaying the site without styles and JavaScript."
01:17:37 <tomman> ...uh, "limited"!?
01:17:55 <tomman> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00200-9 => looks indeed like someone turned off all the fancies
01:23:59 <tomman> but the cookie prompts DO work flawlessly
01:24:38 <tomman> the rest of the site is actually very readable without the fancies, but eh, "limited"... do those science guys think I'm using Netscape 4?!
11:25:34 <njsg> tomman: Dear Nature.Com: "more CSS support" or "more up to date"? make up your mind! :-)
13:06:43 <NewTobinParadigm> frg are you really gonna switch to clang?
14:12:57 <WG9s> NewTobinParadigm: I did gcc is dead.
14:13:18 <NewTobinParadigm> WG9s: what do you mean gcc is dead lol
14:13:29 <NewTobinParadigm> it is one of the most widely used compilers on the planet
14:13:54 <WG9s> clang is the future gcc is the past
14:14:04 <NewTobinParadigm> the future isn't what it used to be.
14:14:28 <tomman> I thought the future was JavaScript Everywhere™
14:14:33 <tomman> and Rust
14:14:42 <NewTobinParadigm> compiled by clang
14:14:45 <NewTobinParadigm> yes
14:15:00 <NewTobinParadigm> but no clang is not the future
14:15:06 <NewTobinParadigm> most of this shit is not the future
14:15:33 <tomman> "The Sega Saturn is not out future" - Bernie Stolar, 1997
14:15:42 <NewTobinParadigm> just a means to either bring us to heel.. or be so fragile that without literal monthly updates it will implode
14:15:50 <NewTobinParadigm> THAT is WHY tech has gone so fucked tomman
14:16:00 <NewTobinParadigm> it all came to me a few nights ago
14:16:16 <NewTobinParadigm> control or destruction .. or controlled destruction.
14:16:27 <WG9s> well this is just my opinon I could be wrong.
14:16:30 <tomman> anything that helps Apple selling more cellphones?
14:16:37 <NewTobinParadigm> those are the only aims here with 90% of the fuckin bullshit of the past 10-15 years
14:16:59 <NewTobinParadigm> and yes the iphone was a huge starter point to get the ball going in a big way
14:17:10 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33667236 oh Clownflare...
14:17:19 <NewTobinParadigm> who have they blocked now?
14:17:38 <njsg> who have they *not* blocked now?
14:18:09 <tomman> today's victim: a YouTube frontend (usually used on Nitter instances, from what I read)
14:18:29 <NewTobinParadigm> cloudflare is now officially a government firewall on the internet.. which government? why all of them of course.. we are supposed to be prepping for a one world government
14:19:05 <njsg> gcc and clang are... well... in some respects (especially for compiling C and C++?) alternatives, hopefully both get somewhat widely used and will both be part of the future
14:19:33 <NewTobinParadigm> First they came for Alex Jones, then they came for other sites, then they came for kiwifarms, now it is normalized and desired by loud crazies enough to become standard operating proceedure.. best practices and industry leading..
14:19:33 <tomman> Xinnie, Put-it-in and whoever runs USA today agreeing to a single Internet censor point? Nah, they would declare WW3 to decide who installs the censor bits
14:19:39 <njsg> but now there's rust in the mix too (thus llvm)
14:19:50 <NewTobinParadigm> and a google service fe support site is blocked
14:20:00 <WG9s> but then c++ was always a kluge to try to make c work with object oriented programming
14:20:03 <NewTobinParadigm> the https certs are next to ramp up
14:20:05 <tomman> Clownflare has become a pest for the entire Internet
14:20:11 <NewTobinParadigm> certs invalidated for legal reasons
14:20:17 <NewTobinParadigm> certs invalidated because of accusations
14:20:19 <tomman> but webdevs justify it because "well, bots are bad, 'mmmmkay?"
14:21:19 <WG9s> c was never a language suited for that.  was desinged to be a way to do waht used to be do in aswmbly language could be done in a higher elvel language.  was never ever disinged for object orinted programmingl
14:21:30 <WG9s> so all of these efforsts are a kluge
14:21:46 <njsg> C++ seems to be innovative as different people identify something different as the kluge, could it be the 2001 of programming languages?
14:21:49 * njsg hides
14:22:13 <tomman> To be fair I've never liked C++... or even plain C
14:22:15 <NewTobinParadigm> THEN it will be the last of all http access https only no mainstream browser will be capable of accessing non-https content .. THEN with cdn, some backbones, isps, CAs, and dns over https.. they will take final control of the tcp and udp dns system and have complete control where it will be effectively North Korea with a shiny AOL-type coat of paint
14:22:19 <NewTobinParadigm> mark my words tomman
14:22:33 <tomman> that time in college where I nearly made a Linux box halt and catch fire because of a stray pointer...
14:22:58 <njsg> and then we will be spreading leaflets on how to build radios capable of joining a network of some sort where IRC still works
14:23:09 <tomman> (I swear I saw fire inside the case!)
14:23:14 <njsg> tomman: you were interfacing a printer?
14:23:25 <tomman> nope, it was some stupid linked lists stuff
14:23:44 <NewTobinParadigm> and ISPs will go back to aggressively blocking non-ssl ports like ATT never stopped doing
14:23:46 <tomman> a pointer went to hell and the machine was sent straight to swap hell
14:23:49 <NewTobinParadigm> so there you go
14:23:55 <tomman> had to pull the power plug on it
14:24:02 <NewTobinParadigm> that is how the creatures regain total control of media
14:24:14 <NewTobinParadigm> and it only took 20 years
14:24:17 <NewTobinParadigm> to pull off
14:24:34 <NewTobinParadigm> media including ALL info
14:24:38 <NewTobinParadigm> of course
14:25:06 <NewTobinParadigm> The internet is sure gonna look a lot like ABC, CBS, and NBC by the time it is over with
14:25:20 <NewTobinParadigm> in the 1950s
14:25:42 <NewTobinParadigm> AND DON'T FORGET the green regulations
14:26:20 <NewTobinParadigm> countries will likely start denying service to people and entities simply because the usage goes over green regulation allocations or some shit.. as a workaround for censorship
14:26:28 <NewTobinParadigm> if they even bother at that point
14:27:06 <NewTobinParadigm> Ladies and Gentelmen.. We have lost the Web. Now we have to regain it somehow.
14:27:10 <NewTobinParadigm> any suggestions?
14:30:12 <tomman> kill cellphones
14:30:32 <tomman> also demand a Computer Operator License for being able to purchase computers
14:30:39 <tomman> and use them
14:31:12 <NewTobinParadigm> kill the smartphone
14:31:14 <tomman> also the European Union should force all laptops to be thick
14:32:50 <NewTobinParadigm> no more than feature phone level capabilities.. lg 6100, 8000, 8100, WAP capable, SMS/MMS, polyphonic ringtones, maybe streaming music and mp3 playback..
14:33:00 <tomman> I miss my RAZRs :/
14:34:02 <NewTobinParadigm> tablets should go away and the orginal tabletpc slate-style devices should come back
14:34:07 <NewTobinParadigm> true systems..
14:35:34 <tomman> but then my mom would hate me because she hate computers and can't read her news anymore :/
14:36:04 <tomman> What we need is two Internets
14:36:07 <WG9s> We whould require all laptops to be at least #/4 inch think when sjut is just as lame as what you suggest.
14:36:17 <tomman> one for the grannies and consoomers, with tablets and cellphones
14:36:52 <tomman> and the other for Licensed Computer Operators (that's us!), complete with ThickPads™ and unlocked bootloaders and NO RUST/JS
14:37:08 <frg_Away> NewTobinParadigm we are using clang for macOS and Windows x86. VS20xx Windows x86 builds were crashy playing media so I switched. VS2019 and Windows x64 is very stable. Don't intent to switch.
14:37:24 <tomman> ouch
14:37:45 <NewTobinParadigm> you think 32bit isn't worth doing?
14:37:57 <NewTobinParadigm> i mean I agree but do you still allow npapi?
14:38:12 <frg_Away> No npapi is all gone.
14:39:15 <NewTobinParadigm> also on win32 at least on some graphics.. 64bit binaries can poke some older chipsets the wrong way whereas a 32bit binary on win64 doesn't
14:39:19 <frg_Away> And x86 is on my "if it breaks and I can't fix it it is too bad but lets go on" list
14:39:33 <NewTobinParadigm> so that MIGHT be a reason to keep it until windows 10 dies in 2025
14:40:07 <NewTobinParadigm> not saying it is but i wanted you to be aware of that tidbit for when that decision is finally made
14:41:28 <frg_Away> My old Thinkpads and SeaMonkey X64 like each other: Win 7 and 8.1 and 10 and Server 20xx all good. Nvidia x86 3xx.xx x86 drivers are crap and nothing new out for x86.
14:41:53 <NewTobinParadigm> it's been an occasional problem in mozilla code ever since hwaccel has been there.. I believe some of these issues were never sorted but merely wallpapered over with most shit being webrenderer now or whatever it is called
14:42:41 <NewTobinParadigm> I kinda wanna get rid of win32 builds my self as well
14:43:24 <NewTobinParadigm> but some of the crazies that might overlap with my target crazies may still wanna run a 32bit version for some npapi plugin or one of those gfx gremmlins
14:43:39 <NewTobinParadigm> you know frg_Away ;)
14:43:46 <frg_Away> My stance is anything below 4GB and older than Core2Duo belongs in a museum.
14:44:07 <NewTobinParadigm> IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
14:44:12 <NewTobinParadigm> sorry
14:44:13 <NewTobinParadigm> had to
14:44:17 <NewTobinParadigm> required.
14:44:36 <frg_Away> And I still love my old X201 and T61 which work fine. 2008 and 2010.
14:46:02 <NewTobinParadigm> three years ago my official cut off was 2014 cause that was the oldest era of machine i could test with.. that is still the case so i am sticking with it for now.. I also likely won't drop Windows 7 support (unless a critical lib forces me to) until windows 10 dies and that will likely be the case with binoc win32
14:46:43 <NewTobinParadigm> I may define policy on hw support
14:46:45 <NewTobinParadigm> tho
14:47:11 <NewTobinParadigm> i should define a lot of easy to follow policy so everyone is absolutely sure where I, we, me, stand
14:49:28 <frg_Away> I am still running an X8DAi with Westmere Xeons from 2009 and Server 2016 as my home office machine. Unless you are a gamer it is still overkill for 99% of the tasks you throw at it.
14:51:05 <frg_Away> So Core2Duo is something debatable but first generation Core and up is pretty much fine foe everything. For desktop just toss a later graphics card in.
15:36:54 <NewTobinParadigm> frg_Away: I can't just say five years and your computer isn't worth my time
15:37:10 <NewTobinParadigm> now in five years maybe computers won't be worth my time but that is a different issue
15:37:31 <frg_Away> well 2 years if you are running Android :)
15:44:10 <njsg> that much? oh, wait, they probably have to because warranty?
15:51:42 <WG9s> my computer is old because of trying to keep with the required backwards compatibility for SeaMonkey byilds.
16:06:47 <frg_Away> WG9s that is what VMs are for. But running Broadwell and Haswell Xeons on my main systems and they are great. Almost peak Intel I think.
17:37:58 <NewTobinParadigm> virtualization is literally the most useless way to test software maintaining a pretense of backwards compatibility
17:38:18 <NewTobinParadigm> because virtualization is idealized and the level of hardware abstraction varies
17:38:36 <NewTobinParadigm> it just won't give you any insight to any real world bare metal quirks you have to deal with
17:38:46 <NewTobinParadigm> to say nothing about any hardware test being valid
17:39:02 <njsg> but it does provide an easy way to test different software platforms
17:39:13 <NewTobinParadigm> so basically if you pretend to do more than just see if it runs and doesn't crash after 30 seconds.. you're wasting your fuckin time
17:39:45 <NewTobinParadigm> now BUILDING on vms.. totally the right call
17:40:13 <NewTobinParadigm> but never consider testing in a vm to be anywhere near the usefulness of bare metal if it ain't a total waste
18:14:47 <tomman> Virtualization is only useless if you're targetting videogames
18:14:52 <tomman> otherwise it's a godsend
18:15:08 <tomman> it's the perfect way to keep that internal XP-only app alive 'till the cold death of the universe
18:15:22 <tomman> for gaming however, virtualization is awful unless you target old DOS games
18:25:01 <hyc> it's a terrible way to run anything that's performance sensitive
18:26:01 <hyc> it's ok for maintaining a bunch of different build environments, as long as you don't mind the performance loss when building
18:26:47 <tomman> How hard is performance loss these days?
18:27:32 <hyc> varies pretty widely.
18:27:53 <hyc> the biggest problem is the variance, i think. like, you can't trust the clocks inside a VM.
18:29:04 <tomman> sounds like something that would hit mainly scientific and financial workloads, not so much for your average webapp
18:37:32 <frg_Away> Unless it is graphics related or needs real hardware like serial or parallel paort and is timing sensitive you can do almost anything now in a vm.
18:39:58 <tomman> ah, hardware access
18:40:36 <tomman> my only experience with serial ports and VMs were with DOSbox and some Seagate firmware tool - it would crash NTVDM and even VirtualBox!
18:40:43 <tomman> but worked flawlessly on DOSbox
18:40:44 <hyc> ah yes. one thing that still doesn't work for me inside a VM, even with USB passthru: firmware updates for USB-attached devices
18:48:22 <neko_the_gamer> i just installed windows subsystems for linux, finally i can use WeeChat on windows without Cygwin