Hello! I just encountered this encoding error when applying the latest patch queue: "abort: decoding near 'm in rustc�s regress': 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0x92 in position 267: invalid start byte!". It seems to stem from mozilla-release/patches/servo-18854-58a1.patch.

teruna. I fix it in a minute. Just change rust´s to rust's or rusts

frg_Away: Perfect, thank you!

should be ok now: gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-253-patche…8f399365f16c45418049a731f0e0b8966bd

Thanks, all patches applied successfully. Compiling now.

teruna probably another bunch in later. Shoudl need to do some bugzilla cleanup but slurping coffee and appyling stuff is easier :)

Posting from the new build (Arch Linux, clang 14.0.6, rust 1.64.0). :-)

frg_Away: rustcquestionmarkdiamond.s is disgusting.

frg_Away: your platform has some corrosion

waiting for a programming language named after composite materials

Well I recently needed to fill out a skill matrix at work. Because I have some limited knowledge wrt rust I listed it. Together with the disclaimer that I will quit if I need to actually do something using it. Thank god unlikely. Cobol is as far as I go currently but there are limits :)

let's rewrite the Linux kernel in COBOL!

MOVE REGISTER-B TO GPU-REGISTER-XZ

while I have terrible memories from COBOL at college (in 2006!), I'll take it over those newfangled hipster languages and platforms

just do not force me use any compiler made by Fujitsu or I'll commit arson :D

I started with Cobol in 1984 and swore I would not end with it. The money is good so call me sellout :)

88 RUST-BAD VALUE 'URGKKK'.

tomman is the idiotic js underscore number representation widespread? Can probably make it happen in SeaMonkey then.

frg_Away: it's not exactly new, but Discourse is the first consumer I've seen of it

dunno why in the hell developers would want number separators on constants, but sadly that now got baked in into the standards

Number representation with an underscore is probably th dumbest thing I have seen in a long time.

oh man, Discourse now has a Loading Screen™

I am bored. Can I have some spam message in my browser please: mozilla-central/efccbd3e12f8

frg_Away: if you were using Borealis you wouldn't be using a browser.. u'd have to get some spam for the navigator instead

CaptainTobin. I would first need to switch to something modern so that I have a new tab experience telling me what recent spam I missed.

meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-not-…-with-an-unsupported-browser/138293 oh, so the sabotage IS intentional

you're supposed to disable JS to please Discourse, instead of getting, y'know, served BASIC HTML!

oh no, that doesn't follow The Vision™

while I do want to make the blank page/newtab shit work like Phoenix my first attempt was a failure.. I don't want to do that shit tho BUT a new tab page mechnism being there can be extended by extensions

I'd basically make it like Pale Moon's logopage just with a few buttons and a search bar

New Tab New Window New Private Window searchbar.. brand.. done

that's reasonable

eh?

well no new tab that is redundant

apparenly I now need to define a GoogleBot UA override for EVERY SINGLE Dickhouse board, how nice of you, Atwood and friends

and if new window or private window it will close the tab

otherwise I get punished with JS lockdown

so basically an extensiablity point and two-click change your mind :P

"If I were in your position I’m sure I’d be annoyed too. But this is one of the reasons I use an iPhone instead of an Android phone. With iPhone, you get updates for years after buying your phone, while Android is very hit or miss and company-dependent. This means that I can continue benefiting from improved web features used by Discourse while, unfortunately, you lose support."

You miss search suggestions and the mosteverawesomebar

phoneshaming, of course

tomman Set 91a1 in the current 2.53.15b1 pre. If IanN lets me I will keep it in the release.

the only difference is Apple WILL software sabotage your device a few updates before the final.. Google MAY do the same but more likely the manufacturer or carrier abandons all updates and software ages out of compat range

that is the Truth.

frg_Away tomman

Prove me wrong.

and yet, that's the development model chosen by Discourse: "if you're not using the latest shiny bought yesterday, you do not deserve to even read the information you're looking for"

I own this one: gsmarena.com/siemens_me45-263.php

Still works but my eyes could now use a better screen.

this piece of garbage board software was released circa 2013, and that has been their position since then: shaming users who deviate from The Vision™

same result, same amount of evil.. less obvious means.. Google for whatever reason is still half-trying to maintain a pretense of not being what they are.. i dunno why they bother but waste resources on that instead of the other activities i guess

what really pisses me off is the intentional lockout on Discourse if it ever detects you're using a "not iPhone/modern computer" - it's entirely artificial!

remove that, and the forum is actually USEABLE, even if for read only (which it's my use case for 100% of those boards)

Well we can't change the world. Apple at least supports its hardware for about 8 to 10 years.

in the meanwhile, phpBB boards Just Work™ even on lowly IE3 :D

I respond to threats to MY vision only when they have no vision of any kind.. IF someone has a good pure competing vision then may the superior win but those with no vision no understanding .. interfearing with MY shit.. nah dood

tomman: Believe it or not my special component default template layout actually renders decently on IE

not perfect but not bad either

well anything that supports div and some css will do OKAY

At my former job I kept compatibility for IE8, even if only because I Could™ (we didn't had any users on IE8, and only one or two on IE11, which were more like happy accidents instead of intentional users)

and now that I remember, the IE8 compat stuff was rather minimal

I kept compat with gecko/1.9.2 up until 2018 or so

slightly degraded but perfectly servicable

most stuff i used at the time had prefixes back then

I still maintain that product but now as a external contractor, and while I've dropped the IE8 bits, my baseline is still FF52 and whatever was the final Chrome version that ran on XP

like box-shadow

i love me some drop shadows

as anyone here who has looked at more than one thing I have designed can tell

it helps that my UI design is "boring, but It Works!"

also helps that the kind of software I've worked on is not meant for Joe Bloggs and Jane Tiktoks, but for corporations

AKA "you have to use this program or you don't get paid"

I want to get my default/special template to be a windows window obviously.. BUT i also want it to have different apperances depending on what i want to set it to.. from 3.1 through Chicago, Watercolor, Luna, Aero and 8-10 favoring 10's re-adding of things like window borders

fortunately I'm not an UX criminal either - if an user complains that some UI bit is hard and it is not a problem of the actual procedure itself (hard to deal when your workflow is regulated by law), then yeah, I can help~

I should actually also configure the template to just get rid of the window frame and fill and use js to update the status text .. anything other than Borealis gets the window as-is cause screw them

or just make it a thing the thing can do

that always works

eh?

what we need is to implement all the ES2024++++ additions into our products, pronto :D

"but ES2024 is not a thing yet!"

just use the next week Chrome release

otherwise you're a grandpa

what we need is to collaboratively work together to uplift our respective JS engines as far as we can go reasonably

build system wise the stuff would be nearly identical.. most of the adapation elsewhere would also also be applicable but not str8 apply

frg_Away: of course there may be a more attainable and beneficial goal for both of us as a stepping stone..

We can sync our js engines.. we add everything UXP/GRE/ARE added to yours THEN we backport yours to mine THEN we can take a gander at what should be done next

IanN_Away:

between fork/52 and sm/56 there is no reason on this earth we can't be running the same spidermonkey

fuck i can even conditionalize any self-contained build logic differences

but the thing IS that in order for this to happen for me.. i have to make sure your js engine is at minimum functionally eq to mine

Currently I/we are still able to backport stuff halfway clean. I would like to keep it that way for some time still. Too much currently missing which would need extensive work if done standalone not using spidermonkey as the base. Not that I like it but I see it as the path of least resistance for now.

frg_Away: So you'd reject patches that add newer es features?

that can be adapted fairly easily

Engine is at 57 and well into 58 with some later backports. Some parts are at 60 already and some well later. Not rejecting patches but I and ianN try to take the full "path" to them in so that they apply halfway clean.

don't forget that if i identify the differences between UXP/ARE spidermonkey and YOURS and then refit it into my codebase any uxp patches THEY make become a fuck ton easier to port

frg_Away: you also realize that if I accomplish THIS MUCH it is highly likely someone at mcp will take it and then you'd have THREE GROUPS ALL ON THE SAME ENGINE

BUT

let's say frg_Away that it only went as far as you guys either adapting UXP patches or doing it the mozilla way then those remaining features will only improve things for your users and nothing else would have changed but if it were to happen even remotely like I envision.. drama community bullshit etc is irrelevant everyone will benefit everyone even despite their abject hate

and in this day and age it would be a hell of an accomplishment

Overall the software is not there where I feel confident that we can deviate too much from the mozilla source. Also not enough contribution and that is where I see the most problems. If one of us all buys the field or wanders off it is over.

frg_Away: you're falling into a trap

the stuff isn't good enough so we can't change it cause not enough people to do the work.. but there aren't enough people to do the work because you aren't changing enough of it SO it will be good enough

never be*

i dunno man.. it just seems like sometimes when it comes to the more pressing and serious decisions that the tone around here just kinda goes into this sort of "Well we are gonna just do what we have always done if for no other reason than I get bored occasionally.. I have tried really hard to shake that sense but it persists.. Is there a vision and end goal that drives this project and if so what exactly is it?

i mean it just seems like that adding a handful of features which you already have some backported beyond your general feature level and getting one or potentally two additional groups all working on the same code and maybe as lost and defeated as most seem to be can get a sense that what they are doing actually does matter in a much larger context and there CAN be actual sharing of code even if projects are at best apathetic or at worst hostile ..

you want the support.. so do a few bits that you're gonna do anyway evntually now and incrase that support potental by a good deal

it is basically risk free for you

at that juncture

CaptainTobin. It is just that I take tha path of least reisitance. I don't have a vision and spending too much time on it already. I try to enhance the product within the limits of the codebase and over time get some web compatibility in. I don't think there is enough outside support for doing it standalone or in collaboration with another project. I think the suite codebase is in the best...

...shape since ever. It could always be better but the plan is to move forward one step at a time.

There are no limits.

You know this is exactly why I wasn't able to do much for this project 12 years ago

this EXACT thing

and this is why this project is so starved for contributors

who wants to even bother commiting to something that can barely be bothered to exist unless it is handed to them on a silver platter.. FUCK even WHEN it is on a silver platter.

the fuck man

you HAVE to change this status quo dude

even if you do nothing else

THIS has to go

The sad truth is that all our projects together don't make a dent and all are starved for contributors. It is work and no one wants to do this without being paid. Open source is in a coma. Just look at outside contributions to TB or Mozilla. More or less non existing now.

Then why are you here at all?

why should we do anything at all

it means nothing and has no impact on anything or anyone

There is a phrase I came across and used heavily in the past.. "We are the agents of our own salvation."

CaptianTobin Because I am like you, SeaMonkey is my browser of choice and I am stubborn like a mule. And looking at latest 2.53.15 it works mostly great for me :)

And in the long run nothing matters yes but at least I tried.

I think even if the effect is marginal or even insignificant it is ALWAYS mesurable. So that means everything we do has meaning.

And I am also waiting for mozilla to fold to see what comes next then. Would like us to be still standing then.

frg_Away: let me lay this on you.. While it is true that SeaMonkey as an Internet Suite is extremely niche and mozilla tech is the same and open source globally is kinda fucked BUT if you will make it a priority just below "CRITICAL WEBCOMPAT" to match the UXP features so that I can attempt an engine refit it might allow me to gain some additional appeal and if that happens then I can start repairing the spotty evolution and eventually if we work

really hard we could effectively end up VERY CLOSE in all the core bits and bobs of course i'd never go rust but u'd never not cause you can't

you want to try and last out to see if mozilla collapses?

ME TOO

Let's do it as together as reasonably possible, k? Then we can hang out and watch it burn!

Mozilla that is.

frg_Away: final tl;dr speed up a couple of tidbits so I CAN catch up so we can help each other help our selves to survive to watch Mozilla burn in a glorious spectical!

THAT is a CORE MISSION STATEMENT if I ever heard one

with one addendum "Oh and make some neat software too."

Well to backtrack a bit I am not sure I want to see them burn. Still lots of good people and we still use some services. I just think they will :) I would like to see what comes then and maybe salvage some pieces.

Well i hope any remaining legit people survive. But I want that red dragon to burn.. I always prefered Green Mozilla anyway.. Green Mozilla is TRUE Mozilla!

And if everything fails, we can just send boxes full of live cobras to each webdev in California :D

fuck i am surprised with all the eco-dictatorship bullshit Mozilla hasn't brought back a bastardized version of the orginal Mozilla to shill for eco-masocysim

Well currently he is digging a grave :) home.snafu.de/tilman/mozilla/Mozilla_Digging.gif

Well Netscape was always ahead of the curve eh?

until Microsoft joined the party

I do not want to see Mozilla burn

the one I want to see burning and rotting is GOOGLE

IE would still be spyglass mosaic if not for Netscape

Mozilla just need to sack the SJWs and her overpaid CEO

oh, and the UXtarded art school dropouts

tomman Lets just say the current mozilla management is not my cup of tea.

tomman: put me in charge of UX design?

come on tomman you like my UX style preferences don't you?

CaptainTobin: depends: do you hate menubars, toolbars, and statusbars?

do you?

Let me be clear: the reason I'm using SeaMonkey (or in general, not-Firefox/not-Chrome) is because of the UI

what do YOU think the answer is?

tomman: I am gonna put statuspanels with icons for ALL the managers

When FF4 came with that ridiculous redesign, we could just rearrange the pieces and have our FF3.6 back

it will work like the menus in the tools menu

then... they ruined that with Australis

that day, I ran away, fast, fast as I could

but didn't figured that Chrome was eating the world not only with its horrible minimalist UI

tomman: at some point emulating fx2 or navigator with Phoenix be it Firefox or Pale Moon just wasn't good enough anymore

but also by pretty much forcing webdevs to rely on shiny new APIs introduced every next week

I wanted the real thing and more i wanted it to also have my mark on it

cellphones and lazy webdevs using frameworks only made things worse

i have been speaking out about it since 2011

i told everyone i could everywhere i could i did so for years

of course, if you tell webdevs that what they're doing is destroying the world, you get answers like the Discourse morons

"progress is good for The Vision™"

I am a web developer.

But I am NOT an OpenWeb Developer.

aka framework scriptkiddy

aka communist

I mean modern wedevs like your average SIlly Valley framework vomit, or those idiots that came up with the idea of using COMPILERS to build webapps

not dinosaurs like us that like sane and sensible

but hey, "sane and sensible" doesn't attract the megamillion$$$ of the VC lottery

tomman: something like gogs is a good example of how to do something as a "compiled webapp"

It's funny: MS tried with this crapola (webapps on the desktop) circa 1998, and failed miserably

but i assume you mean bytecode and str8 up runtime binaries via js packaged in a format you can't inspect

Mozilla tried too, and burned badly

why Google had to be the one that actually had success with such a bad idea?!

The issue with ActiveDesktop wasn't what it did.. it was that it wasn't a choice and can BARELY be disabled without more drastic shit

if they had kept the window frame for 95 explorer and turned off webview and made THAT the option vs browser file manager people would have accepted it as the quite remarkable technology and impl it was for the time

heh, ActiveDesktop was the thing us noobs used to have JPEGs as desktop wallpapers until we learned to find something else to convert them to BMP and not have our wallpapers dissapear with the ActiveDesktop safe mode white screen of death

I spent way too much time looking at those "ActiveDesktop has failed, click this button to restore" fallback desktops

Mozilla should have used their XPFE technology to extend the suite into a full shell on windows and DE (sans wm) on linux..

THAT would have kept Netscape up vs Winders

And people would have hated it too because web browser engines are overkill for driving a desktop, much more with the terrible machines of back then

BUT xpfe was very componitized so you could just have the navigator or navigator and composer or just mailnews and the shell

or just the file manager and not the shell

IIRC early KDE1 actually used some HTML engine for rendering the file browser windows

and it was kinda heavy, and crashed a lot (but I still miss KDE1 :D)

IE's only real impact 95% of the time on the shell (assuming not a js script running a much) is that it used ram

because aside from some js and html .. shell folders used an activex control which was basically the same folder control used before

KDE3 still had konquorer as an IE-like web and file client

and desktop

I bet I could make an extremely simple PoC of a "desktop" xul window

I just love the idea of a XUL-enabled shell

I will build a file manager one day tho

reminds me when I used StarOffice back in 2001 in Linux

the thing was SO heavy that under Linux I would quickly run out of RAM on my Deceleron shoebox

and magazines of the era tip for that would be "run StarOffice as your destko"

--desktop

surprisingly StarOffice had a desktop-esque mode, complete with file browser and Start menu!

no WM, tho

lol.. my shell would likely just end up being more Program Manager like than Chicago-like

heh.. I could ADD an explorer widget then just control it with the UI but where is the fun in that

i wanna see if i can abuse the directory index component to provide more

in fact the suite-only xul version of the ui could be a good starting point

tomman: use the sidebar for a directory tree

or a places bar

SPEAKING OF

frg_Away: you do realize that navigator.xul's basic construction lends its self to becoming a suite.xul with the content area and tabstrip being able to be interchanged with something else

well it would be a good structure to replicate in my example app

when i revamp it

anyway keep getting distracted

sorry guys

cleaning up the overlay hell without preprocessing would also be a good start for this. A bit more hierarchical.

Well I believe preprocessing is superior to AppConstants

WELL obviously the superior choice is code that doesn't NEED to be preprocessed but when it is needed it is better than runtime choices

especially for an increasingly overburdoned js engine

same with dynamic chrome registration overlays and subscript loaders

and I know THAT is what Mozilla is doing as long as it still has any vague resemblance to what it was and if I were to do that and then throw a modern website at it .. the js engine would stall even worse than it normally does

frg_Away: what exactly do you mean by overlay hell tho

I plan in my platform code to create a new basic window overlay which will provde the named elements like menubar toolbox main-toolbar statusbar and some basic menuitems

that will take over for what CommunicatorOverlay does in the suite

but even more than that

Lots of stuff in xul overlays and included a bit too randomly for my taste. overlay loads overlay loads overlay. I bet some of them could be deleted or reorganized.

but yeah elements but not the structure so non-applicable bits don't apply

that is true

well maybe you will draw some inspiration from my reworked toolkit

good thing is among my work is distributing locales and skin resources to their components so they are along side their content

so if you ever DO wanna steal one of my revampped component UIs you can just take the whole component.. at least that is the end goal

frg_Away: I question why there is a navigator.xul and a navigatorOverlay.xul

JUST the debug extension?

well even then.. that doesn't need to be on that

yes stuff like this.

and now some sleep