09:48:03 <njsg> I guess it's easy to spot discourse sites, at least with javascript disabled...
09:48:30 <njsg> if it's unscrollable and has serif fonts, so far it looks like it's discourse?
12:16:18 <tomman> njsg: Ah, Jeff Atwood's "polite" way to say "Your iPhone is so last-year, it's time to put it to pasture and buy a new one that fits with my vision for the next 10 years!"
12:16:52 <tomman> reminds when The Daily WTF had adopted Discourse and they kept finding bugs and breaking the damn thing every day, until Jeff permabanned them
17:07:07 <therepair> hi all: converted adblock uBlock origine for seamonkey works youtube tested with SM 2.53.14 (link is 6 days available)
17:07:14 <therepair> https://filebin.net/ut33985w0a2pdgqf/UBO-4-Seamonkey.zip
17:09:41 <therepair> see the README
17:13:41 <WG9s> therepair:                   have y ou  also tested with the  latest nightly builds located here https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/seamonkey/nightly/comm-253-latest/ ?
17:16:02 <therepair> humm no but SM 2.53.14 is the last public available (i think)
17:23:51 <therepair> i also tested it with last for XP  seamonkey-2.49.5. on a very old HP DV8000 film Youtube film + uBO works at 240p
17:25:28 <therepair> Seamonkey is alway better for YT  video rendering compared with FFX particilarly on older laptops
17:31:41 <therepair> so... noboddy interested ... bye!
18:03:41 <tomman> the link is gone :/
20:31:17 <frg_Away> Forking containers: https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/05/suse_alp_v001/
20:31:18 <frg_Away> I hate them. Seems need to look for a new OS for my backup server.
20:48:38 <IsambardPrince> Would it be possible to send GMail a fake useragent with OAuth2 from SeaMonkey Mail by default so I can back out the hack around "insecure app".
20:49:00 <IsambardPrince> It seems with GMail about to demand OAuth2 we may as well prepare for this.
20:50:04 <tomman> the solution is to move outside GMail ASAP
20:50:23 <tomman> but that involves paying money, and well... that brings a whole different threat model
20:51:07 <IsambardPrince> Is there a good reason why "fake them out" isn't a good answer?
20:51:29 <IsambardPrince> it seems to me that sites that are compatible and choose to break by sniffing UA should get a fake UA.
21:06:55 <njsg> IsambardPrince: do UA overrides work for OAuth2? If so, might be worth a try, as far as you don't (later) forget you have that set up :-)
21:07:27 <IsambardPrince> Yeah, I set them for gmail.com and google.com to use Firefox 105's UA.
21:07:32 <IsambardPrince> Then it lets me log in.
21:08:08 <njsg> if you have 2FA, then using the regular password login system is another possibility, with an "app password"
21:10:36 <tomman> I do use an app password with Mail&News on my XP mail setup, but yeah, it requires 2FA, which involves at the very least having a cellphone
21:10:56 <tomman> some people may be fine with that, some may hate it with a passion
21:11:21 <tomman> and yet Google still complains that "app passwords are UNSAAAAAAAAAFE DANGER MINES!!"
21:12:57 <IanN> tomman: what makes me laugh is if you enable 2FA on Office 365, Outlook cannot cope and has to use an app password...
21:13:11 <tomman> wtf
21:13:28 <tomman> sounds like Microsoft forgot what "dogfooding" means
21:15:06 <IsambardPrince> No, they just don't care.
21:15:15 <IsambardPrince> Making a huge mess is just kind of what they do.
21:15:37 <tomman> No, I mean, that seems to be a huge problem on the software industry nowadays
21:15:54 <tomman> your first user should be yourself AKA "use your own goddamned software first!"
21:16:14 <tomman> I mean, you write office apps, so make your secretaries use it
21:16:37 <tomman> or you make chat apps, have your friends use your chat app to talk with you
21:17:08 <tomman> but nope, can't do, it is like those at Boeing that would never fly on a Dreamliner despite working on the assembly line :D
21:19:54 <njsg> It's microsoft, there's probably a bug somewhere and it doesn't work.
21:20:31 <njsg> maybe it is VBA code that relies on certain expectations regarding the values "True" and "False" and was moved from 32-bit to 64-bit
21:20:48 <tomman> oh, so it's like Boeing then: "I would never put my family in that plane" :D
21:21:03 <IanN> tomman: the issue is that MFA is not enabled for all users on the O365 tennancy so probably why Modern Authenication hasn't been enabled
21:21:29 <tomman> that makes even less sense
21:21:40 <IanN> tomman: and you need Modern Authenication enabled to use MFA with Outlook client
21:23:29 <njsg> 1005|22:14:40 <+tomman> or you make chat apps, have your friends use your chat app to talk with you <-- hm, I'd like to see that in MS. There was a group at microsoft research which came up with an interesting IRC program, maybe microsoft should use it!
21:23:32 <IanN> tomman: it is an inherited configuration, so I reserve the right to be wrong / confused
21:24:23 <tomman> and now we know why Windows Phone is dead: not even Microsofties wanted it
21:25:00 <njsg> I wish they had handled that without ruining nokia
21:25:23 <njsg> tomman: another problem nowadays is that even if you use what you develop, that might not be enough, because that might be people running on certain hardware configurations that evade certain realities
21:25:57 <tomman> njsg: Ah yeah, the "I have a top-of-the-line Mac Pro with 32GB RAM and you should do so either" use case
21:26:08 <tomman> aka Discourse's development model
21:26:52 <tomman> anything low-end, or older than 4-5 years automatically fails to meet the system requirements for Discourse boards
21:27:27 <tomman> there was an ol' TDWTF thread back in the dark Discourse days discussing exactly that... and it wasn't pretty
21:27:39 <njsg> and display contrast, brightness
21:27:51 <njsg> remember when the advice for the web was to pick a few "safe colors"?
21:28:02 <njsg> now it's "assume all displays render light gray on light gray like mine does" :-P
21:28:21 <tomman> let's be fair, back in the 4-bit color era, there was ONE gray :D
21:29:25 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft: Instead of cleaning up this crap we could just make a bigger pile of crap. You know. Do what we always do. Quadruple the system requirements. Hide it behind a check for "TPM 2" call an OS with decades of attack surface "secure".
21:30:30 <tomman> and yet Apple Does It Better™ (the pile of crap, of course... but theirs is more profitable)
21:31:08 <IsambardPrince> Apple goes the extreme opposite way. Nothing Stable. Contact Developer.
21:32:17 <tomman> are you now aware that you must update your iDevice apps on the App Store every 3 years at least?
21:32:29 <tomman> Even if your app is feature-complete, bug-free, or as minimal as possible
21:32:38 <tomman> of course "updating" is not just matter of recompiling
21:32:49 <IsambardPrince> Too easy.
21:33:02 <tomman> oh no no no no, that's not how Apple rolls: you must rewrite half of your app because the APIs have changed because it's Apple!
21:33:11 <tomman> And people dare complaining about GTK!
21:33:43 <IsambardPrince> People like to complain about GNOME, like....It's not THAT bad.
21:33:43 <tomman> compare with Windows, where you can still run the FreeCell executable from Win32s (1993!) on Windows 11
21:34:04 <IsambardPrince> Everything they complain about can usually be fixed by Tweaks, Settings, or Extensions.
21:34:16 <tomman> OR even Android itself: I can still run most Android 2 apps on my Android 11 phone
21:34:41 <tomman> my Redmi Note 11 complains because "the dev may need to update its app", but thankfully that's a one-time warning
21:35:04 <tomman> only apps relying on deprecated/removed APIs crash and burn, but old games? That's fair game (pun not intended)
21:35:08 <IsambardPrince> Yes, there's still app developers who bump something in the F-Droid Store and I'm running it on Android 12 and it says "Fix crash on Android 4." and I'm like "WTF.".
21:35:19 <tomman> and that brings me to another point: software preservation
21:35:52 <tomman> Apple simply doesn't believe on that anymore, while the business/enterprise focus of old Microsoft means your Win32 apps will live forever (although Win16 now have its days counted)
21:36:17 <tomman> on Linux the mindset of "you have the code, recompile" is a double-edged sword
21:36:34 <njsg> IsambardPrince: settings, in GNOME?
21:36:42 <IsambardPrince> Yeah.
21:36:44 <njsg> are we discussing GNOME 1?
21:37:07 <tomman> I did used GNOME 1 back in its time
21:37:09 <tomman> never liked it
21:37:30 <tomman> while KDE 1 felt a bit like a poor clone of Windows 98, although it had that native feel that I liked
21:37:48 <tomman> and yet Netscape felt alien on both :D
21:38:06 <tomman> (if you had enough RAM to run it on your distro, that is!)
21:38:14 <njsg> KDE 3 did have settings and was so customizable it seemed to be able to mimick at least part of some look'n'feels
21:38:28 <tomman> KDE3 was Peak KDE
21:38:33 <tomman> I miss KDE 3.5 :/
21:38:40 <njsg> might still be to much if you want something simpler like just terminal emulators and a wm
21:38:46 <tomman> oh, just installed Trinity Desktop on my T40, gotta try it
21:39:02 <tomman> it's apparently a revival of KDE3.5, just like MATE keeps GNOME 2 alive
21:39:51 <njsg> I have that feeling about KDE 3, but that might as well be subjective, I don't think I can say it's better than the other versions objectively, but it at least seemed to be quite tweakable
21:40:41 <frg_Away> tomman tde desktop is the SeaMonkey of desktops. Not enough devs and few people rooting for it. Even the latest kde release is funky. Wish too 3.5 would be back.
21:41:02 <tomman> To be fair, I never liked GNOME 2 when compared to KDE, but KDE 4 went the insanity way, same as GNOME 3, so when MATE became a (usable) thing, I felt strangely relieved, and so far have no desire to leave it
21:41:29 <tomman> gonna steal that quote
21:45:10 <njsg> IsambardPrince: I have the impression GNOME recently has been trying to avoid being customizable or having settings, but maybe they've changed course on that
21:45:26 <njsg> perhaps not so much "recently", I mean, there's that mailing list post about the print dialog interface...
21:46:09 <frg_Away> gnome is the pits. You can try to do worse and will likely do better whatever you do :)
21:47:35 <njsg> I know some changes in GNOME affected me personally, I had GTK dialogs sniffing all files for a file picker dialog on a slower machine, that definitely wasn't a nice experience
21:48:27 <njsg> Well, GNOME, that is, I think by then it was already under GNOME's umbrella, despite the G in GTK?
22:02:34 <tomman> oh boy, TDE looks exactly how I left my ol' Fedora Core 6 KDE 3.5 :D
22:03:07 <tomman> although it feels kinda slow, dunno why
22:20:30 <IsambardPrince> GTK is basically GNOME's now.
22:20:58 <IsambardPrince> It was created to have an alternative under a Free Software license when Qt was proprietary, and the first major application using it was The Gimp.
22:21:19 <tomman> One thing I've always hated from KDE: my XTerms are BLACK text on WHITE background!
22:22:33 <njsg> wasn't it created *for* (or as part of) the gimp?
22:23:15 <njsg> tomman: I think that is the default for XTerm, not sure if that's system-wide XTerm resources, or if it's a system-wide default for X11 foreground and background
22:23:31 <tomman> on every other desktop it's white on black
22:23:47 <tomman> but KDE feels that it's fine to set black on white
22:23:52 <tomman> and Trinity inherited that
22:24:29 <njsg> nowadays I'd think the frequent default would be white on dark :-P
22:24:41 <njsg> (i.e. not 0,0,0)