03:23:57 <IsambardPrince> The UX of GNOME Web doesn't clash with my OS. It would be nice if someone would add WebRequest to WebkitGTK though.
03:24:10 <IsambardPrince> If a browser doesn't run NoScript, it's not very pleasant to use.
03:24:39 <IsambardPrince> "A script is slowing down this page." is probably where Lennart got his inspiration for "A stop job is running....".
03:34:12 <GrannyGoose> Gnome Web has never been Pleasant to use
05:52:15 <IsambardPrince> (10:32:24 PM) GrannyGoose: Gnome Web has never been Pleasant to use
05:52:34 <IsambardPrince> That's because it's one of those lame browsers that makes you run JavaScript, which is mostly malware.
06:54:52 <GrannyGoose> it has nothing to do wityh Javascript IMO, its just a badly designed browser, its a poor mans browser
06:56:03 <GrannyGoose> its bout as bad as that Crapola IRC client Gnome Made called ' Polari '
07:04:52 <IsambardPrince> I don't think they even made that. They just recycled XChat and took all the settings out.
07:16:35 <IsambardPrince> Webkit improves over time, and it's a lot better than back in the days when Epiphany (GNOME Web) had to rely on Gecko. There were just too many hacks involved in getting Gecko to run like that because it was not intended to.
07:16:54 <IsambardPrince> Now SeaMonkey is dealing with the fallout of constant breakage in Gecko too.
07:17:08 <IsambardPrince> It might make more sense to try to rebase it on top of Goanna.
07:19:15 <GrannyGoose> i dunno anything about Goanna so i cant comment but wasnt that in that shitbox browser Pale Moon  or was it waterfox?
07:30:58 <IsambardPrince> Pale Moon.
07:31:24 <IsambardPrince> it seems that Pale Moon runs into some compatibility issues, but nothing nearly as bad as SeaMonkey.
07:33:12 <GrannyGoose> yeah i just googled it. i think FRG haS done a great job by keeping it alive but the way i look at it, its been Dead for awhile now, it should go the same way as the Queen did
07:45:23 <njsg> some newer things are in, other aren't. It's sad if people get the idea the codebase is "old" just because it started at the "Gecko 56" "level"
07:46:35 <njsg> in reality a bunch of newer features (and changes in living standards, which are great[1]) are in, and it isn't really fair to think of it as 56
07:46:50 <njsg> [1] http://enwp.org/WP:SARC
11:21:52 <Maniel> Hey Guys, I oogged off last night just as the Devs Meeting was starting.
11:22:26 <Maniel> Is there anywhere where I can catch up on what was discussed??
11:22:33 <frg_Away> log is here https://ircbot.comm-central.org:8080/seamonkey/20220918
11:23:41 <Maniel> (This location, when we were on a different server, used to be shown in the header of this IEC channel.
11:23:50 <Maniel> Thanksm frg!!
11:29:30 <frg_Away> now here https://www.seamonkey-project.org/community
12:15:39 <tomman> To be fair, most web compatibility issues are caused by Google pushing countless stupid features to Chrome, and webdevs blindly using them through bloaty frameworks
12:15:44 <tomman> can't really blame the browsers
12:16:02 <tomman> if anything, webdevs AND Google are killing web browsers and the health of the web
12:17:34 <tomman> Every time I can, I angrily complain at webdevs, sadly I get dismissed promptly most of the times with CLOSED WONTFIX USECHROME HEALTHYWEBSTANDARDS
12:17:52 <tomman> and "not my fault, can't control the framework"
13:36:05 <Maniel> Gee Whiz!! I know I haven't been using the Alpha/Beta chn releases for a while, but .....
13:36:06 <Maniel> From last meetings notes ....
13:36:08 <Maniel> 1427     frg     Please test 2.531.5b1 pre. Latest NSS and NSPR in and some other stuff for media and prefs from me and IanN.
13:36:09 <Maniel> "2.531.5b1"   Have I missed a hell of a lot of Beta releases!! ;-P
13:36:11 <Maniel> When will the Version switch to '3.xx.x'??
13:58:19 <frg_Away> when there are no more typos from me
14:10:12 <tomman> SeaMonkey 3.11 for Workgroups when?
14:10:47 <tomman> and of course, after 3.x we should ditch minor.revision version numbers and go full Google
14:52:35 <luk3Z[m]> What do you think about LibreWolf ?
15:00:26 <luk3Z[m]> * LibreWolf ? I'm using LibreWolf in Discord coz SM can't handle it currently.
15:01:36 <luk3Z[m]> * LibreWolf ? I'm using LibreWolf in Discord coz SM can't handle it currently (showing blank page even if I change my UA).
15:02:09 <tomman> ewww, Discord
15:02:34 <tomman> AKA "we will ban you if you dare using anything that doesn't resemble the official client"
15:03:04 <luk3Z[m]> When I have to put not wrking site in SM?
15:03:26 <luk3Z[m]> * in SM? When to report not working sites ?
15:03:33 <luk3Z[m]> * in SM? Where to report not working sites ?
15:04:04 <luk3Z[m]> * When I have to put not working site in SM ? I mean where to report not working sites ?
15:04:24 <luk3Z[m]> * Where I have to put not working site in SM ? I mean where to report not working sites ?
15:04:46 <luk3Z[m]> * Where I have to put not working site in SM ? I mean where to report not working sites ? Can I post them here ?
15:07:30 <tomman> luk3Z[m]: You can report them here, for example
15:08:05 <tomman> but if you can provide any extra useful information (like developer console output), that would be even more helpful
15:08:52 <tomman> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=40 Or here
15:09:13 <tomman> dunno if there is a specific category for website compatibility at Bugzilla
15:15:19 <luk3Z[m]> 1. https://discord.com/login 2. https://form.mbank.pl/app/zd_new/index.html I can't change my contact details in my bank. I have some errors in browser console: https://pastebin.com/aABcqCcb
15:19:09 <luk3Z[m]> Without privacy addons (I disabled them)
15:20:43 * luk3Z[m] uploaded an image: (137KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/tgdHccfPBEHicmmgGbHCjLVX/mbank.PNG >
15:22:07 * luk3Z[m] uploaded an image: (83KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/QdPwAzvtfouLSwLppsauBhIk/discord.PNG >
15:24:48 <luk3Z[m]> * 1. https://discord.com/login 2. https://form.mbank.pl/app/zd_new/index.html I can't change my contact details in my bank. I have some errors in browser console:
15:34:13 <NewTobinParadigm> njsg: I been saying that for years and years
15:34:33 <NewTobinParadigm> yet what did I encounter at every turn.. even sometimes from those in here.. old and insecure
15:42:04 <IsambardPrince> LOL, Discord.
15:42:49 <IsambardPrince> "It's like IRC with pictures, except centralized, and you can be banned globally with no regard for what "servers" want, because nobody really has a "server".....also, spyware."
15:43:12 <NewTobinParadigm> even basilisk with its to-google's-own-spec discord would deny it webrtc access
15:43:29 <NewTobinParadigm> seamonkey i dunno if it has all the fe webrtc components
15:43:33 <NewTobinParadigm> only backend
15:43:42 <NewTobinParadigm> either way
15:44:30 <IsambardPrince> WebRTC=MOAR attack surface plz
15:44:35 <NewTobinParadigm> yeah discord has gone from a gamer chat client service to a community provider subjecting people to authoritarian restrictions and political persicution
15:44:38 <NewTobinParadigm> you know
15:44:48 <NewTobinParadigm> like most of sillicon hell has
15:45:14 <IsambardPrince> Must be why Mozilla is using it now instead of IRC.
15:45:30 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: no brainer there
15:45:30 <IsambardPrince> Their IRC server was better than this Matrix and Discord crap.
15:45:50 <NewTobinParadigm> which is good i guess since mozilla long purged anyone with said brain
15:46:09 <NewTobinParadigm> my irc server is better than matrix
15:46:12 <NewTobinParadigm> lol
15:46:12 <IsambardPrince> It's a political party. On its way to becoming another Linux Foundation.
15:46:30 <IsambardPrince> Mozilla spends 60 cents on every $1 on software development now, and falling.
15:46:46 <IsambardPrince> Like "Linux" Foundation spends 4% on Linux and 96% on Not Linux.
15:46:49 <NewTobinParadigm> at this point paultry distinctions of affiliation are just a thin pretense.. it's all str8 communism now dude
15:46:53 <NewTobinParadigm> all of it
15:47:26 <IsambardPrince> Mozilla: Our browser sends all your keystrokes to Google and our adtech partner for "Suggest".
15:47:29 <NewTobinParadigm> i find it amazing that a hundred thousand slippery slopes and EVERYONE FELL DOWN
15:47:37 <tomman> blame cellphones
15:47:38 <NewTobinParadigm> how the fuck does that happen species wide?
15:47:39 <IsambardPrince> Also Mozilla: Do you want a VPN? For the privacy!
15:47:45 <NewTobinParadigm> tomman: I do to a great extent
15:47:56 <tomman> also, blame the tech illiterate
15:48:01 <IsambardPrince> Also Also Mozilla: Hey, what if we cause a VPN leak with DNS over HTTPS and send all your lookups to Cloudflare?
15:48:22 <tomman> IsambardPrince: Reminds me of recent interactions on Debian chat
15:48:29 <tomman> I use an ol' Celery repurposed as a routerbox
15:48:47 <tomman> and was stuck running ancient Debian on it due to REASONS, so I finally pulled the trigger and upgraded
15:49:04 <tomman> asked for possible perils of jumping from ancient Jessie to current stable
15:49:36 <tomman> and half of the answers were "your ol' x86 has unpatchable security bugs, go buy a RPi, why would you even want to recycle old hardware?"
15:50:02 <tomman> (spoilers: the upgrade went great, with a few minor -and expected- snags down the road)
15:50:20 <NewTobinParadigm> i do reconize and accept that all this shit started as just some disgruntled opinions and a genuine desire to do something about it.. and that is the trap you have to be ever vigulant for cause a pure motive like software should be free turns into cancel culture and full on communism
15:51:03 <NewTobinParadigm> have to know when to stop or when to pivot back and alter course
15:51:38 <IsambardPrince> Chrome is not a Web browser. It's a Web hijacker.
15:51:46 <tomman> I thought Chrome was a OS
15:51:58 <IsambardPrince> Discord not working is probably like Element (Matrix) not working properly.
15:52:16 <tomman> oh, Element...
15:52:18 <IsambardPrince> They keep ripping out Web Standard stuff that works fine and replacing it for Chrome code that Firefox also runs.
15:52:37 <tomman> I basically wrote off Matrix because all of the half-decent clients are Chrome-in-a-can™ webapps
15:52:46 <IsambardPrince> The only way to deal with it is accept the breakage or use a different home server that's holding back Element upgrades.
15:52:47 <tomman> and the others are mostly abandoned
15:52:59 <NewTobinParadigm> chrome despite its name was supposed to have basically none.. it was a reference and experimentation platform and never meant to be in the hands of end users.. but instead of having curated vendor independant reference impl it became a commercial product and what was once a cooperative of vendors is now a cartel with google at the top
15:53:21 <tomman> butbutbut you can always count with Apple!
15:53:43 <IsambardPrince> I read on Wikipedia that Chrome peaked in 2018 and has been losing users.
15:53:48 <IsambardPrince> To what? Safari?
15:53:57 <tomman> IsambardPrince: yeah... no
15:54:03 <tomman> not outside USA, at least
15:54:06 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft Edge is cannibalizing IE users and at a ratio of less than 1:1.
15:54:17 <IsambardPrince> Firefox is still losing users as Mitchell Baker doubles her pay every year.
15:54:34 <NewTobinParadigm> If Google had not made chrome a commerical product.. Google could have been the savior of the web by keeping an independant reference impl only used by a few enthusists and as a natural and organic defacto standard instead of the imposed one it is as a commerical product AS a reference impl SERVICE
15:54:43 <tomman> it's like believing that Apple has the biggest share of mobile phone users
15:54:47 <tomman> yeah... but only in USA
15:55:02 <tomman> maybe the day Apple comes up with a $100 iPhone
15:55:07 <tomman> but that's Not Happening™
15:55:36 <NewTobinParadigm> google out microsoft'd microsoft and out apple'd apple and now will be the death of us all
15:56:10 <IsambardPrince> From the company that brought you an MP3 player that cost $349 in 2006 and bricked itself if you copied "too many" MP3 files even though there was still available storage.
15:56:12 <IsambardPrince> :)
15:56:28 <IsambardPrince> Comes....THE AMAZING IPHONE ZOMG!!!! ONLY $1,629!
15:56:43 <tomman> IsambardPrince: JWZ, is that you? :D
15:56:44 <tomman> https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/09/ipod/
15:56:55 <IsambardPrince> There was almost no point in getting the highest capacity iPod.
15:57:02 <NewTobinParadigm> the iphone and android is what tangibly fucked Mozilla leaving it open to communist take over
15:57:23 <IsambardPrince> At least Android allows Firefox to have its real rendering engine.
15:57:35 <IsambardPrince> Bad as things are getting, it's still not GULAG CRASH.
15:57:51 <tomman> yeah, but smartphones killed the dumbphone
15:57:58 <tomman> now if you want a dumbphone your options are:
15:58:10 <IsambardPrince> I had a J2ME phone before Android. It was terrible.
15:58:11 <tomman> 1) Refurbished ancient Nokias and Motos that are 2G-only
15:58:17 <tomman> 2) KaiOS aka KrapOS
15:58:25 <IsambardPrince> It had this horrible Webkit browser that most often couldn't render a page and said OUT OF MEMORY.
15:58:27 <tomman> 3) Chinesiun garbo way worse than ol' Samsungs
15:58:36 <IsambardPrince> So I had to figure out a way to shoehorn Opera Mini onto it.
15:58:38 <tomman> 4) Crippled Android
15:58:48 <NewTobinParadigm> nix based smartphones killed real smartphones and helped spread communism and wokeness
15:58:57 <NewTobinParadigm> think about that
15:59:06 <tomman> uh,what's a "real smartphone"?
15:59:17 <NewTobinParadigm> palm and windows ce
15:59:18 <tomman> Windows Mobile?
15:59:20 <NewTobinParadigm> of course
15:59:33 <IsambardPrince> I don't use Windows anything.
15:59:40 <NewTobinParadigm> palmos was great
15:59:41 <tomman> haha no, those were business pocket computers with a cell modem duct-taped in
15:59:54 <NewTobinParadigm> it was a SMART
15:59:55 <NewTobinParadigm> PHONE
15:59:57 <tomman> they were meant for BUSINESS, AKA "Get Shit Done™"
16:00:13 <NewTobinParadigm> my palm treo played MP3s
16:00:27 <NewTobinParadigm> also tiny avi files lol
16:00:32 <tomman> so did my RAZRs
16:00:43 <IsambardPrince> Android and iOS are for idiots.Most of the apps make fart noises and then there's the sketchy hookup apps and the ones with 3 second videos and Chinese spyware.
16:01:03 <NewTobinParadigm> so why does anyone need anything more than either a basic feature phone or a proper smartphone
16:01:09 <NewTobinParadigm> why did they need android and ios
16:01:10 <IsambardPrince> I barely use my Android phone as a "smart" phone. I mostly use F-Droid programs and the camera.
16:01:28 <NewTobinParadigm> besides, palm devices helped make people smarter
16:01:39 <NewTobinParadigm> nix based smartphones make people dumber
16:01:41 <IsambardPrince> The Web is getting too awful to consider using.
16:01:57 <IsambardPrince> Even in SeaMonkey, I often just use a Gemini proxy.
16:02:16 <NewTobinParadigm> i am waiting for the day some mainstream media owned isp decides no connections outside https are allowed
16:02:20 <IsambardPrince> News Web sites are full of garbage JavaScript, images that don't serve a purpose, and paywalls.
16:02:23 <NewTobinParadigm> no other protocols no http
16:02:26 <NewTobinParadigm> no nothing
16:02:37 <IsambardPrince> They don't have to.
16:02:46 <IsambardPrince> Most Web sites don't fall back to http anymore.
16:03:07 <IsambardPrince> When I installed Netscape 4 on my Fedora system the other day, I could browse like 3-4 sites.
16:03:28 <IsambardPrince> It was like, "Oh, ToastyTech still works so I can read about how bad Windows 11 is on Netscape 4.".
16:03:31 <NewTobinParadigm> i mean the web will be the only routable protocol and only https leaving CAs in effective control of the entire domain name system
16:03:43 <IsambardPrince> "Techrights and Tux Machines.....let you get at the text, but it looks wrong."
16:03:57 <IsambardPrince> "The Mozz.us Gemini portal works, so there's NewsWaffle."
16:04:08 <NewTobinParadigm> i love toastytech
16:04:11 <IsambardPrince> The Gopher functionality still works.
16:04:16 <NewTobinParadigm> ie is evil
16:04:34 <NewTobinParadigm> i so wanted netscape to make a windows shell replicating activedesktop
16:04:43 <NewTobinParadigm> but with the netscape engine
16:04:53 <IsambardPrince> I just ran RoM II SE on Windows 98 to remove IE.
16:05:15 <NewTobinParadigm> I wasn't on Windows 98 long
16:05:19 <IsambardPrince> It gutted Windows 98 down to less than half the size it was before, and replaced the shell with the Windows 95 B one, patched to say "Windows 98".
16:05:20 <NewTobinParadigm> windows 2000 was the best
16:05:32 <IsambardPrince> Install a few hotfixes. Copy over the Notepad and Defrag from Windows Me.
16:05:36 <IsambardPrince> You're in business.
16:05:51 <NewTobinParadigm> I have used the shit in Nathan's Mad De-integration lab including 98lite
16:06:06 <IsambardPrince> 98lite was shareware.
16:06:19 <NewTobinParadigm> yeah
16:06:24 <IsambardPrince> It couldn't completely remove IE without you paying for the full version. RoM could.
16:06:31 <IsambardPrince> I wanted it all gone, including Trident.
16:06:35 <NewTobinParadigm> well remember that was back when buying software was seen as reasonable
16:07:00 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: that is gonna rely on what you want to run on the system
16:07:17 <NewTobinParadigm> i of course removed all of internet explorer from win2k and xp with nlite
16:07:27 <IsambardPrince> If it required Trident, I didn't want it to run. :)
16:07:41 <IsambardPrince> Amusingly, this included Office 97 and Norton Antivirus.
16:08:26 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft was encouraging everyone to use it as part of a Maximum Pressure campaign to get even Windows 95 and NT users to break down and install IE even if they didn't want it.
16:09:45 <IsambardPrince> Hmm....SeaTab-X should be merged into SeaMonkey.
16:10:03 <IsambardPrince> It always felt weird dealing with tabbed browsing without a close button on every tab.
16:10:04 <NewTobinParadigm> i think it is gpl isn't it?
16:10:54 <IsambardPrince> https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-US/seamonkey/addon/seatab-x-2/?src=search
16:10:59 <IsambardPrince> MPL 2.0
16:11:08 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: the tabbrowser binding used in SeaMonkey is a slightly evolved version of the Firefox 1.5/2.0 tabbrowser binding that was updated when seamonkey went largely toolkit from xpfe
16:11:34 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: the way the extension impliments things are not so slottable
16:11:43 <NewTobinParadigm> to do it properly
16:11:54 <IsambardPrince> It does seem to work fine.
16:12:02 <NewTobinParadigm> yes as an extension
16:12:22 <NewTobinParadigm> merging the functionality isn't so str8 forward
16:12:26 <NewTobinParadigm> i have looked into it
16:12:43 <NewTobinParadigm> the tabbrowser binding its self simply needs some serious work
16:13:34 <NewTobinParadigm> it would be nice if for Borealis and SeaMonkey if the binding was updated to be at least functionally eq with Firefox 3.6
16:13:46 <NewTobinParadigm> that will accomidate the current design
16:14:14 <NewTobinParadigm> just fill the missing gaps up to the point the firefox ux team bastardized theirs
16:14:48 <IsambardPrince> Borealis repo says "graveyard".
16:15:22 <NewTobinParadigm> and you know what? I know it can work cause I have done a few field tests by str8 up slotting Firefox 3.6's in and with a few mods it was half-functioning but it was missing a lot of years of fuckery to be adapted to but if it became at LEAST functionally eq that would improve things greatly for end users
16:15:38 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: cause that ain't where it is anymore
16:15:56 <NewTobinParadigm> my shit is here https://code.binaryoutcast.com/projects/aura-central
16:44:37 <NewTobinParadigm> ever wanted to see a mozilla preference file as a structured json array? http://preview.binaryoutcast.com/special/test/?case=mozPref
16:44:58 <NewTobinParadigm> i used it as a way to test my access and set by dotted key notation
16:45:14 <NewTobinParadigm> and wrote a thin wrapper function for pref() and pasted it in
16:47:38 <NewTobinParadigm> https://dpaste.org/3u61V
18:40:23 <tomman> IsambardPrince: It's time for the Toastytech dude to make a "CHROME is EVIL!!!" and "CELLPHONES are EVIL!!!" sites, as IE is largely dead these days
18:40:35 <tomman> although if you read his Opinions page he is somewhat on track
18:40:59 <tomman> wonder if he still uses Windows 95 and SeaMonkey 1.x as his daily driver :D
18:43:32 <NewTobinParadigm> well he likely uses a lot of shit because he has to
18:43:52 <NewTobinParadigm> but i dunno if he has the same dedication to hating this shit he used to
18:44:47 <NewTobinParadigm> like would you expect to see the real windows 10 setup involving oobe and shit today? nah not without it being a nostagia update to the win98 one
18:45:35 <NewTobinParadigm> i think it is telling tho that all those demonic bill gates images look more frendly and wholesolm than actual pictures of bill gates today
18:48:00 <tomman> I suspect Bill Gates haven't touched a Real Computer since he left Microsoft
18:48:30 <tomman> and he is too busy these days getting divorced, selling his private jets, and spreading lies about science
18:48:39 <NewTobinParadigm> I suspect Bill Gates became a full fledged satanist to fill his time when he stepped down
18:48:44 <NewTobinParadigm> gotta level up you know
18:48:56 <NewTobinParadigm> satanism and cultism as an mmo
18:49:01 <NewTobinParadigm> THAT'S IT
18:49:05 <NewTobinParadigm> THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
18:49:15 <NewTobinParadigm> THIS IS ALL A GAME TO THEM
18:49:19 <tomman> in my times we just called it "Doom" :D
18:49:31 <NewTobinParadigm> doom is a best case
18:49:39 <NewTobinParadigm> we ain't that lucky tomman
20:38:05 <NewTobinParadigm> SaaS and CaaS Satanism as a Service and Communism as a Service
21:02:11 <NewTobinParadigm> frg did not join #SeaMonkey
21:02:28 <NewTobinParadigm> he is not actually here this very minute
21:02:35 <NewTobinParadigm> indeed frg never existed
21:02:45 <NewTobinParadigm> just a whimsical marketing fiction
21:03:11 <NewTobinParadigm> can you believe that frg_Away
21:03:51 <frg_Away> yeah he is a fake.
21:04:12 <frg_Away> After a 12h work day a tired one too :)
21:04:55 <NewTobinParadigm> so yeah frg_Away we should think about collaborating to update the tabbed browser binding
21:05:08 <NewTobinParadigm> to at LEAST Firefox 3.6 level
21:05:18 <NewTobinParadigm> which was the end of that design
21:06:36 <frg_Away> I run seatab x2 and wanted to integrate it for some time. Just it still works and there are so many other things to do. Patches welcome but don't expect much input currently / unfortunately. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul these days.
21:06:37 <NewTobinParadigm> as near as I can tell except a few adhoc changes and sec updates on some things.. it is virtually feature eq of somewhere between Firefox 1.5 and 2.0
21:06:55 <NewTobinParadigm> frg_Away: seatab is a nice extension but production code it ain't
21:07:26 <NewTobinParadigm> the easiest thing to do is reach 3.6 tabbrowser parity THEN add any additional or unique features on top
21:07:44 <NewTobinParadigm> but even as xbl bindings go the current one in play is sadly lacking
21:09:58 <frg_Away> yes tabbrowser and sessionstore both need a bigh overhaul. Mail is better these days thanks to IanN.
21:10:28 <NewTobinParadigm> frg_Away: if you wanna see it in action and then port my patch to your binding that's cool but i will ask questions cause there are still areas i am not super strong in
21:11:41 <NewTobinParadigm> you'll have to handle theme changes for your port tho cause we aren't theme compat tab style wise
21:12:03 <NewTobinParadigm> cause I wanted Firefox 2 tabs in most places and areo tabs on windows 7
21:13:07 <NewTobinParadigm> i am just thankful that rss issue was fixed cause i really didn't want to rip it out and replace it with a phoenix impl
21:13:50 <NewTobinParadigm> not yet anyway
21:14:15 <NewTobinParadigm> I espect several implimentations will get rewritten as time goes on if the client lasts that long
21:14:29 <frg_Away> I am weak when it comes to xbl and all the bindings stuff. I can do 200 backports a day but understanding all of it is not it. Not as dumb as a few years ago but don't call me an expert.  Usually need a few hours like with the rss stuff to see what is wrong. Very messy code with all the messages, events and observers in place.
21:15:39 <NewTobinParadigm> what would be nice is to develop a unified rss component that both the long integrated feeds extension in mail and rss feeds as livemarks could both source from
21:16:17 <NewTobinParadigm> AND frg_Away
21:16:21 <NewTobinParadigm> THINK ABOUT THIS
21:17:38 <IsambardPrince> I'm not sure what you would use NPAPI for anymore even though Pale Moon still seems to report it's there.
21:17:50 <NewTobinParadigm> if a unified rss backend was a thing that means it would be unified rss storage somewhere right? THAT MEANS in SeaMonkey's position as a suite with both newsgroup style rss feeds and netscape livemark style.. you could specifically migrate a feed from livemark to news feed and back
21:17:54 <IsambardPrince> Adobe remote bricked Flash, Modern Java doesn't have a plug-in anymore.
21:18:22 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: NPAPI has a lot of uses just not so many new ones on the web
21:19:07 <NewTobinParadigm> when it comes to their efforts and mine.. it is literally not worth the effort to rip it out vs not having the functionality there in the admittedly rare case where you need it
21:19:13 <IsambardPrince> The last one I think GNOME Web was using was to shove Evince into the browser to handle PDFs, but now PDF.js is part of Webkit upstream. For a while, WebkitGTK bundled a fork of the one from Firefox.
21:19:30 <NewTobinParadigm> me specifically I am globally disabling plugins by default
21:19:48 <NewTobinParadigm> and i even added a little code to hide that bit from the Add-ons Manager
21:19:56 <NewTobinParadigm> and not load the plugin provider
21:20:17 <IsambardPrince> That all had to come out because (1) it required X11, and GNOME is trying to drop X11 as a dependency and (2) the NPAPI code was nasty and didn't get along with Webkit2, and (3) it required GTK2 to be there and nobody was going to port it to GTK3.
21:20:40 <frg_Away> There are tons of stuff which could use a rewrite. Like the Data Manager. RSS works for me and so I try to do other things first. Which it would be different and we could could just use a stable backend and rewrite the frontend but thanks to mozilla backend is gone..
21:20:55 <NewTobinParadigm> https://code.binaryoutcast.com/projects/aura-central/commit/a7c286677036445e571c914e3b94e16747904835
21:21:06 <NewTobinParadigm> ah the gtk2 issue
21:21:17 <IsambardPrince> I wasn't a big fan of moving from Evince to PDF.js honestly, but it is what it is.
21:21:28 <IsambardPrince> It moves things from a native application to some Web garbage.
21:21:50 <NewTobinParadigm> yes since there are very few plugins and no web plugins being produced these days there is a dependancy in gtk3 systems where gtk2 was still required to run old dead plugins that relied on gtk2
21:21:54 <NewTobinParadigm> in order to break the dep
21:22:13 <NewTobinParadigm> that means that old plugins can't load in gtk3 applications
21:22:22 <IsambardPrince> Mozilla's justification was that since it uses JS, it doesn't add new vulnerabilities, but while that's technically not untrue for users who have default JS settings, for NoScript users, it does add attack surface.
21:22:27 <NewTobinParadigm> i do need to break that dep
21:22:28 <NewTobinParadigm> as well
21:22:41 <NewTobinParadigm> but the technology is mature and sound and why should i remove it
21:22:41 <IsambardPrince> A specially crafted PDF could run JavaScript and trick the user into viewing it to attack a NoScript user.
21:22:52 <frg_Away> Correct npapi blocked the gtk2 removal. And after ripping it out the code became a lot cleaner and I think a bit faster too. Given that I hated Flash since my OS/2 days it was a pleasure for me. Sorry :)
21:22:53 <NewTobinParadigm> disable by default cause security sure
21:23:14 <NewTobinParadigm> frg_Away: it did not block gtk2 removal
21:23:14 <frg_Away> Anyway long day and next one will be the same I think so nighty night.
21:23:36 <NewTobinParadigm> there just ain't enough cost benefit for them to keep npapi if no npapi plugin will work anyway cause they need gtk2
21:23:59 <NewTobinParadigm> on distros where gtk2 may not even be produced anymore and had been showing signs of issues on newer systems for years already
21:24:06 <NewTobinParadigm> trust me i have explored the issue totally
21:24:20 <NewTobinParadigm> but don't let anyone tell you npapi prevented dropping gtk2
21:24:22 <NewTobinParadigm> cause it didn't
21:24:28 <frg_Away> Yes you could have changed it for gtk3 compatibility but with no plugins around it was a mood point. And next is wayland urgkkk....
21:24:30 <IsambardPrince> The whole point of plug-ins were that the Web engine couldn't do that thing. And that's something that's not been true for years now.
21:24:50 <NewTobinParadigm> now.. i shall NOT be removing GTK2 from my platform
21:24:55 <IsambardPrince> Web engines can do anything Flash and Java could, whether that's a plus or minus depends on why the content wants to do that.
21:25:30 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: There is a reason the web is falling over
21:25:52 <NewTobinParadigm> and it is because they expect a browser to do way more than it is reasonable
21:25:54 <IsambardPrince> Yes, because it has turned into a Virtual Machine instead of a Document Viewer.
21:26:02 <NewTobinParadigm> a web browser's job is to display documents
21:26:11 <NewTobinParadigm> oh good
21:26:16 <NewTobinParadigm> then i will skip the speech
21:26:17 <IsambardPrince> Chrome was a way for Google to take over, sabotage the Web, and use it as a way of running proprietary software without asking.
21:26:32 <NewTobinParadigm> that's an oversimplification
21:26:34 <NewTobinParadigm> but yeah
21:27:28 <IsambardPrince> I'm not happy about where things are with Mozilla, at any level. But one thing that made me pretty mad was Mitchell Baker dismissing Thunderbird.
21:27:34 <NewTobinParadigm> but just because a web browser CAN do a thing doesn't mean it SHOULD do that thing
21:27:41 <IsambardPrince> Saying people are not using email anymore, but rather GMail.
21:27:50 <NewTobinParadigm> I would argue video totally should be offloaded to plugins
21:27:59 <NewTobinParadigm> not so much audio.. audio is easy
21:28:13 <IsambardPrince> Google is trying to make it difficult to load your mail in an email program, because those don't display fake emails that are really ads, like the Web App does.
21:28:18 <IsambardPrince> This makes you a freeloader.
21:28:38 <IsambardPrince> So now of course there are "Less Secure Apps" which have to be taken out back and shot....For your own safety, you know.
21:28:45 <NewTobinParadigm> I think Mail has no place on the web.. i think chat has no place on the web.. i don't think anything other than documents images and audio should be the job of the web client
21:29:23 <IsambardPrince> Well, there's so much active content now, including grab this font and run it.
21:29:45 <NewTobinParadigm> I also think anything past ES5 is a waste with little gain
21:29:48 <IsambardPrince> That at least early on, right, Google and Mozilla grabbed those, and they weren't designed to be exposed to arbitrary Web content.
21:30:05 <IsambardPrince> And so there are thousands of CVEs all at once in the fonts and the codecs, and stuff. They didn't care.
21:30:19 <NewTobinParadigm> and that XHTML 1.0 was the height of markup
21:30:25 <IsambardPrince> Eventually it got tamed, but occasionally something still happens.
21:30:37 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: I been called a twisted computer fundamentalist btw
21:30:57 <IsambardPrince> Google isn't known for profiling things and merging them when they're stable.
21:31:08 <IsambardPrince> This is move fast and break stuff because the risk is shoved down to the user.
21:32:07 <IsambardPrince> Then Firefox does the same thing, for compatibility.
21:32:16 <NewTobinParadigm> you know.. IF I ever have to continue the platform runtime without being able to reasonably produce a webclient.. first thing I am gonna do is add phpxpconnect and switch all the operational scripting from js to php
21:33:22 <NewTobinParadigm> I think that would be cool in any event
21:33:26 <NewTobinParadigm> and people have done it
21:33:38 <NewTobinParadigm> javaxpconnect and pythonxpc have existed
21:33:41 <IsambardPrince> I read that Gemini will soon have a human-curated database of sites.
21:33:49 <IsambardPrince> Like what dmoz used to be for the Web.
21:33:58 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: help me impl a proper netwerk component for the protocol
21:35:16 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: start by porting and fixing up http://xr.binaryoutcast.com/mozilla-1.9.2/source/netwerk/protocol/gopher/src/
21:35:31 <NewTobinParadigm> then we can add your gemini bit to necko
21:35:40 <NewTobinParadigm> then frg will port it to seamonkey and boom
21:35:53 <IsambardPrince> Not a programmer. :(
21:36:11 <IsambardPrince> I think I mentioned Gemini the other day just because I saw all the browsers for it popping up.
21:36:35 <NewTobinParadigm> I'd love to support it but I won't be able to do it my self
21:36:57 <NewTobinParadigm> of course if there is a http portal you could fake it like the gopher extension does
21:37:01 <IsambardPrince> I love the Web>GemText>Web setup I use from Mozz.us.
21:37:17 <IsambardPrince> Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It would be simpler that way, but more laggy.
21:37:29 <IsambardPrince> And it would put strain on Mozz.us, which I'm not sure if they appreciate.
21:37:35 <NewTobinParadigm> yep
21:37:51 <NewTobinParadigm> except no one cares about these protocols so the incrase wouldn't be staggering
21:37:59 <NewTobinParadigm> but i'd still like to have them properly
21:39:44 <IsambardPrince> Having SOMETHING that can seamlessly do the Web, Gopher, and Gemini would be good.
21:39:52 <IsambardPrince> That way you don't have to juggle different programs.
21:40:25 <NewTobinParadigm> and it would give at least a theoretical reason to exist if the web falls down too far for shit to use in my navigator
21:40:36 <IsambardPrince> It would also help for an orderly transition away from the spam farm the Web has become.
21:40:39 <IsambardPrince> Back to TEXT.
21:41:02 <NewTobinParadigm> now don't get me wrong.. I do enjoy well styled layouts
21:41:10 <NewTobinParadigm> and the uniqueness we used to have
21:41:35 <NewTobinParadigm> so a gopher like text only default styled view doesn't appeal to me as a general use web replacement
21:41:42 <IsambardPrince> Well, you can still do some of that client-side like Lagrange does.
21:42:40 <NewTobinParadigm> if you were to say go to microsoft.com and apple.com in 2002 would you expect to see anything that even looked remotely similar?
21:42:42 <NewTobinParadigm> let's see
21:43:27 <NewTobinParadigm> https://web.archive.org/web/20020121021031/http://microsoft.com/
21:43:34 <NewTobinParadigm> https://web.archive.org/web/20020327052038/http://www.apple.com/
21:44:05 <NewTobinParadigm> two very different sites
21:44:26 <IsambardPrince> The News Waffle is nicer than trying to view news sites in Lynx.
21:44:42 <IsambardPrince> Web sites are written assuming you'll be viewing them in Firefox or Chrome.
21:44:43 <NewTobinParadigm> now let's look today
21:44:44 <NewTobinParadigm> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/
21:44:48 <NewTobinParadigm> https://www.apple.com/
21:45:14 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: tell me what you see?
21:45:33 <IsambardPrince> Stripped down into GemText, a LARGE article is maybe 20-25 KB, and an average one 8-10.
21:46:21 <NewTobinParadigm> ok but i don't really want everything on the web be identical.. else why bother cause then the only difference you are saying is ads and js
21:46:35 <NewTobinParadigm> and i can disable js and .. well images from the main menu
21:46:39 <NewTobinParadigm> well not js
21:46:45 <NewTobinParadigm> but i could add a menu item no problem
21:46:50 <NewTobinParadigm> but images
21:47:56 <NewTobinParadigm> http://personal.mattatobin.com/image/capture/918d9ea7-bd3b-4fcc-8a57-fa2b1776ebd7.jpg
21:47:59 <NewTobinParadigm> there we go
21:48:03 <IsambardPrince> The old Microsoft site works without JavaScript.
21:48:03 <NewTobinParadigm> no images no javascript
21:48:33 <NewTobinParadigm> http://personal.mattatobin.com/image/capture/b3b3abd3-5d2d-40d9-8093-f4f3bf181784.jpg
21:48:35 <NewTobinParadigm> there
21:48:46 <NewTobinParadigm> that's what you would have forever more?
21:48:51 <IsambardPrince> Their business seems to have changed. In 2002, they were trying to sell professional stuff.
21:49:00 <IsambardPrince> Now they're trying to sell consumer garbage.
21:49:28 <IsambardPrince> Gemini can load images.
21:49:36 <IsambardPrince> It's up to the user if they want to see them or not.
21:50:06 <NewTobinParadigm> my point is.. there CAN be a balanace between the google web and gopher and clones
21:50:15 <IsambardPrince> You can have pretty much any MIME type as long as the user has an external handler.
21:51:06 <NewTobinParadigm> I think we should just have a xul protocol
22:01:05 <NewTobinParadigm> you know what we really need
22:01:11 <NewTobinParadigm> everyone
22:02:02 <NewTobinParadigm> WG9s__ njsg tomman IsambardPrince .. we need an xpconnect with the v8 js engine
22:05:57 <IsambardPrince> Seriously?
22:06:21 <NewTobinParadigm> spidermonkey is importing more and more of v8 anyway
22:06:49 <NewTobinParadigm> wouldn't it just be easier to write a full on spidermonkey api adapter and add any mozilla-specific bits on top
22:07:49 <NewTobinParadigm> tho what I think is obtainable is a project uplift the js engine up the line either by esr or each release
22:07:59 <NewTobinParadigm> adapting xpc and dom along the way
22:08:48 <NewTobinParadigm> i figured it could get up at LEAST to 68 without too much issue after that it gets harder but i think the jump to 78 is doable as well and likely up to the point where rust is totally required for all features
22:09:16 <NewTobinParadigm> SINCE we are close reletively speaking if we can pull THAT off we would both totally benifit
22:09:57 <NewTobinParadigm> and while backporting js rust bullshit would be like css rust shit and for me a no go.. it would get far further up the line
22:10:13 <NewTobinParadigm> cause these v8 regex features and shit is only gonna get worse
22:11:24 <NewTobinParadigm> in order for such an endevor to be successful tho it would have to exceed or allow for easy reimpl the highest feature level we have added to it
22:11:26 <NewTobinParadigm> of course
22:12:20 <NewTobinParadigm> for me also to even attempt this i will have to up the vs requirement cause I know that past a point the vs cpp level will be too low
22:12:58 <NewTobinParadigm> would you guys be willing to work on such an endevor for the collective good of all of us?
22:21:56 <NewTobinParadigm> yeah 68 would require newer visual studio
22:22:10 * IsambardPrince barfs
22:22:15 <NewTobinParadigm> looks like 2015 was dropped just AFTER esr60
22:22:16 <NewTobinParadigm> so
22:22:27 <IsambardPrince> This is why we can't have nice things.
22:22:32 <NewTobinParadigm> huh
22:22:49 <IsambardPrince> Visual Studio required to build the Windows version of Gecko.
22:23:01 <NewTobinParadigm> good thing I am not building gecko
22:23:03 <NewTobinParadigm> isn't it
22:23:31 <IsambardPrince> I was comparing the Visual Studio 2019 build of WavPack to the one built with MinGW.
22:24:24 <IsambardPrince> The differences were that The Visual Studio version was 6 times the binary output and slower and wouldn't run on anything older than Windows 7 SP1 and the MinGW one runs on everything back to XP x64 edition.
22:24:44 <NewTobinParadigm> the real problem with uplifting the js engine for me is that because it has been worked on peicemill for years what it supports and its platform dependancies are adapted for it
22:24:51 <NewTobinParadigm> not the stock spidermonkey engine
22:24:55 <IsambardPrince> So basically Visual Studio seems to bloat the binary and make it less compatible, and not much else?
22:25:40 <NewTobinParadigm> so I may have to start str8 up with stock mozilla codebases and build that way before i can compare and contrast the differences between the base and my current state and adapt the work to make it function to account for it
22:26:10 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft apparently made a Hello World C that ran for over 15,000 source lines of code once, or something like that.
22:26:22 <IsambardPrince> I can't seem to find the reference to it now, but totally believable.
22:26:29 <IsambardPrince> Windows 11 is the OS equivalent to that.
22:27:03 <NewTobinParadigm> or fuck maybe I will just align with SeaMonkey's platform and strip it down for my purposes
22:27:06 <NewTobinParadigm> i dunno lol
22:27:13 <IsambardPrince> They did the Hello World in the Windows 3.1 era, so it's not even like you can joke "It depended on Internet Explorer!".
22:27:49 <NewTobinParadigm> I have a memory of html program manager groups
22:28:08 <NewTobinParadigm> on windows 3.1
22:28:15 <NewTobinParadigm> i saw it
22:28:25 <NewTobinParadigm> i had it
22:28:31 <NewTobinParadigm> i dunno where it came from
22:28:34 <NewTobinParadigm> cause I was a kid
22:28:37 <NewTobinParadigm> but i saw it
22:29:50 <IsambardPrince> WinHLP used a primitive hypertext system, but it was more like Apple's HyperCard system than HTML.
22:30:09 <IsambardPrince> .hlp files still worked on Windows 98 after removing Internet Explorer, but HyperHelp files didn't.
22:30:38 <IsambardPrince> So often trying to use Help resulted in.....nothing happening, or an empty window coming up. Oh well. Small price to pay to ditch Internet Exploder.
22:31:01 <IsambardPrince> You could delete WinHLP too if you really wanted to.
22:32:24 <NewTobinParadigm> regardless dude i think if I can get a PoC of a JS uplift to at LEAST esr60 maybe that would inspire some people to help adapt it and go further on our respective platforms
22:34:24 <IsambardPrince> Gates is a liar, but he didn't technically lie about things breaking without IE on Windows 98. The overall OS worked, but Microsoft made sure some things broke to punish you for removing it.
22:34:34 <IsambardPrince> That said, if you didn't use those programs it didn't matter.
22:35:16 <IsambardPrince> The system was too bloated and unstable to function properly _with_ IE. So you were basically screwed either way.
22:35:46 <IsambardPrince> It's a good thing Microsoft is not relevant anymore to consumers.
22:36:18 <IsambardPrince> They totally fired like 200 people who were employed for 4 years to try to convince all of the consumers to come back from Macs, Chrome OS, and Linux and failed.
22:36:34 <IsambardPrince> 18,000 more to go, and that's just what's currently planned.
22:36:45 <IsambardPrince> The house of cards is coming down, and it's coming down fast.
22:37:29 <IsambardPrince> For Help systems, a lot of applications just come with HTML files and open them in whatever browser the user uses.
22:37:55 <IsambardPrince> Or manpages. Or anything other than Trident. :P
22:38:48 <IsambardPrince> If you follow the DOM as it existed in 1999, you can do everything you need to do in a Help file, no doubt.
22:38:53 <tomman> in the meanwhile, Google managed to convince people that the web is the OS
22:39:02 <tomman> and achieved what Microsoft ultimately failed to do
22:39:36 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft wanted the Web as a program that only ran on Windows. In that sense, Chrome isn't as bad as what they had planned.
22:40:53 <NewTobinParadigm> it IS microsoft's plan
22:41:06 <IsambardPrince> IE came with all sorts of nice things, like unsandboxed Windows applications (ActiveX), an HTML parser that hid broken markup from the developer so they'd shove it on their Web site and only IE would "fix it" on the fly, proprietary tags, proprietary extensions to JavaScript, and an attempt to foist DirectX onto the Web too.
22:41:10 <NewTobinParadigm> google literally hasn't come up with anything purely unique since the search engine
22:41:19 <NewTobinParadigm> and even that was created by darpa
22:41:56 <IsambardPrince> Well, it's unfortunate that it's Google, and an also-ran that's operated by Microsoft.
22:42:25 <NewTobinParadigm> orginal corperate greed microsoft we could handle
22:42:39 <NewTobinParadigm> when it was merely corperate greed
22:42:40 <IsambardPrince> DuckDuckGo just returns what Bing does, so they've completely censored my blog even though up to a couple of years ago, Bing was reported in the news to be returning child abuse results.
22:42:47 <tomman> > proprietary tags, proprietary extensions to JavaScript,
22:42:56 <tomman> and Google is borrowing that from the same playbook!
22:43:13 <tomman> the web standards in 2022 are literally what Google engineers implement this week in Chrome
22:43:21 <NewTobinParadigm> hey i have no issue with properitary extensions sometimes that can be a way to gain wide adaption but dictating features like that not so much
22:43:26 <IsambardPrince> IE only ran on Windows. So the point was that you needed Windows to run IE.
22:43:29 <tomman> case in point: Google WebComponents®
22:43:43 <tomman> I've yet to find a webdev that can tell me why WebComponents® is so great
22:43:43 <NewTobinParadigm> IE ran on unix mac and several other platforms other than windows dude
22:43:53 <tomman> other than "it's modern" and "Google does it"
22:43:54 <NewTobinParadigm> mac had both trident AND tasman
22:43:58 <NewTobinParadigm> a far superior engine
22:44:08 <IsambardPrince> IE didn't really run "on UNIX". It had a Solaris and HP-UX port, but they were incompetently ported and crashed the entire OS if you applied security patches to the OS.
22:44:20 <NewTobinParadigm> solaris is unix
22:44:23 <IsambardPrince> And on the Mac, it was a different engine that didn't support the stuff that IE for Windows did.
22:44:27 <NewTobinParadigm> hp-ux is also unix
22:44:36 <NewTobinParadigm> if they ain't unix fedora ain't linux
22:44:39 <NewTobinParadigm> ;)
22:44:54 <IsambardPrince> There's a YouTube video of a guy running IE for Solaris. It crashes the entire kernel if you apply Solaris security patches that IE isn't expecting to be there.
22:45:01 <IsambardPrince> Crashes THE KERNEL.....
22:45:03 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: try and keep up i already mentioned tasman
22:45:29 <tomman> IsambardPrince: OK,if it crashes the kernel I can blame Solaris, not MS
22:45:34 <IsambardPrince> So it didn't actually last long on "UNIX" and it never did support ActiveX. That was missing. The only plug-ins were NPAPI.
22:46:01 <tomman> no userland software should ever crash the kernel unless 1) userland and kernelland have no separation, or 2) you're running everything in supervisor mode
22:46:02 <IsambardPrince> What kind of garbage program can manage to crash the OS kernel because you installed a security patch to the kernel?
22:46:17 <NewTobinParadigm> up to ie5
22:46:46 <tomman> I mean, IE was terrible for many, MANY reasons, but if an OS crashes because IE runs, I can only blame the OS developers
22:46:47 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: i am sure it happens more than you think even on the unix persuasion
22:47:08 <IsambardPrince> I haven't had a kernel panic on Linux in a very long time.
22:47:09 <NewTobinParadigm> tomman: how crashy was ie5+ on win2k for you
22:47:11 <tomman> it's like blaming Torvalds because I get a kernel panic every time I run LibreOffice
22:47:13 <NewTobinParadigm> cause for me it rarely crashed
22:47:17 <tomman> NewTobinParadigm: I never used W2K
22:47:19 <tomman> worse
22:47:22 <tomman> I was on WIndows Me
22:47:29 <tomman> it was crashland every day of the year
22:47:30 <IsambardPrince> Outside of a stable kernel series, I got one in 2008 because of a forked kernel I built myself and screwed something up on.
22:47:32 <NewTobinParadigm> wasn't very good for the web by the end of 2004 but still stable for the most part
22:47:44 <NewTobinParadigm> tomman: then that is your issue
22:47:50 <NewTobinParadigm> you missed out on win2k
22:47:55 <tomman> was stuck on Windows Mistake Edition for 4 years
22:47:56 <tomman> believe me
22:48:03 <tomman> I TRIED to install W2K
22:48:04 <IsambardPrince> That's pretty good for Linux.
22:48:06 <tomman> and XP on that machine
22:48:12 <NewTobinParadigm> it's classy unified consistant style, its powerful features, and its rock solid stablity
22:48:18 <tomman> the installer would bomb with a BSOD claiming that the bootdrive was not accesible
22:48:22 <NewTobinParadigm> getting win2k to crash wasn't easy actually
22:48:41 <IsambardPrince> I can say "It totally crashed on me once in 2004, once in 2006, and once in 2008 but that one was squarely because of some fruitloop patches I was applying to it myself.
22:48:42 <tomman> back then I used a bottom-of-the-barrel Deceleron shoebox with a craptacular PCChips mobo
22:48:50 <NewTobinParadigm> tomman: maybe it didn't have the driver for your harddrive controller
22:48:54 <tomman> that thing was one of the few mobos that could NOT RUN NT AT ALL
22:49:03 <IsambardPrince> Other than that it's been 23 years of smooth sailing.
22:49:05 <tomman> it was a run-of-the-mill standard PATA controller
22:49:14 <NewTobinParadigm> or your harddrive controller wasn't fully working.. good enough for dos and general use but nt wouldn't have it
22:49:16 <tomman> Even Linux -of all things!- could install and boot from there
22:49:20 <tomman> but no NT
22:49:44 <tomman> the installer would happily partition the disk and copy files, then would bomb at the very next reboot
22:49:48 <tomman> INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE
22:49:51 <NewTobinParadigm> NT is VERY vulnerable to the hard drive because its entire system scheme seems to revolve around it
22:50:11 <IsambardPrince> If you omit the fact that in 2004 that was a BIOS bug and in 2008 it was my fault, that's one kernel panic in 23 years on Linux. I'm certain Windows locked up on me at least a few times every month. Windows 98 with IE installed managed it a few times a week.
22:50:19 <NewTobinParadigm> and ntldr/setupldr wasn't very sophisticated
22:50:21 <tomman> since I moved to hardware that could run XP, well, it has been (mostly) smooth sailing
22:50:39 <tomman> the few BSODs and kernel panics I've got were basically due to buggy device drivers, or dying hardware
22:50:43 <NewTobinParadigm> i refused to run windows xp as a daily driver until after sp2
22:50:44 <IsambardPrince> Windows isn't very sophisticated. It was designed to gain marketshare, not for technical excellence.
22:51:00 <NewTobinParadigm> tho i fell in love with whistler i was very pissed when they changed it to that stupid fisher price theme
22:51:05 <IsambardPrince> There's a lot of garbage and nonsense in it that wouldn't be there except to try to steal everyone else's lunch, like API personalities.
22:51:13 <NewTobinParadigm> Windows Whistler was classy as fuck
22:51:23 <tomman> NewTobinParadigm: I liked the Fisher-Price theme... but only after switching to Luna Silver :)
22:51:37 <tomman> the default Luna Blue was indeed hideous
22:51:37 <NewTobinParadigm> whistler watercolor is the finest style
22:51:48 <tomman> but atleast it has charm
22:51:51 <IsambardPrince> WSL2 gave up trying to implement "Linux" as an API personality because Microsoft "engineers" weren't smart enough to figure it out.
22:51:57 <tomman> unlike 8/10 flatter-than-Win3.x
22:51:58 <NewTobinParadigm> luna doesn't bother me much today since i didn't spend 15 years staring at it day after day
22:52:06 <IsambardPrince> They kept coming up with excuses for why WSL1 didn't behave like a real Linux kernel.
22:52:07 <NewTobinParadigm> cause i always had a different style going
22:52:10 <NewTobinParadigm> largely watercolor
22:52:39 <tomman> Wonder who started killing themes and 3D effects
22:52:40 <tomman> ah yeah
22:52:42 <tomman> APPLE!!!
22:52:42 <NewTobinParadigm> IsambardPrince: which is bullshit because the nt kernel is specifically designed from day one to run multiple subsystems
22:52:45 <IsambardPrince> There's also the usual Microsoft-isms. Like "userspace Linux" and "Linux64 binaries".
22:52:52 <NewTobinParadigm> they just didn't want to do it as a PROPER subsystem
22:52:58 <NewTobinParadigm> but a thin virtualization layer
22:53:11 <NewTobinParadigm> if they did it as if it was the win32 or posix subsystems
22:53:14 <IsambardPrince> The "Linux" userspace is GNU.
22:53:18 <IsambardPrince> They just don't want to say it.
22:53:20 <NewTobinParadigm> then it would be second to only actual linux
22:53:36 <IsambardPrince> And the binary format of x86-64 Linux is called ELF64.
22:53:43 <NewTobinParadigm> i know that dude
22:53:48 <NewTobinParadigm> but listen to what i said
22:54:05 <IsambardPrince> So the correct terminology is an ELF64 binary on GNU/Linux. But they come up with their own language.
22:54:05 <NewTobinParadigm> they wanted to cygwin it
22:54:09 <NewTobinParadigm> and call it a day
22:54:16 <NewTobinParadigm> but people need more legit functionality
22:54:46 <IsambardPrince> It's almost as bad as listening to a government agency's jargon file. Like they have to make documents public but they want to make it difficult for an outsider to keep up with them, so they say a lot of nonsense.
22:55:25 <IsambardPrince> Then you need to open a dictionary so you can translate the nonsense as you go along.
22:55:52 <tomman> What about reverse Wine?
22:55:57 <NewTobinParadigm> least they added openssh and a few utils to windows its self
22:55:58 <tomman> let's call it... "LINE"
22:56:00 <tomman> oh wait
22:56:11 <IsambardPrince> Linux Subsystem for Windows.
22:56:13 <IsambardPrince> :)
22:56:18 <tomman> I did tried WSL1 once
22:56:38 <IsambardPrince> Wine exists on my computer to run a few video games and foobar2000.
22:56:40 <tomman> actually liked that Linux executables would appear listed on Process Explorer, with native Windows PIDs and all
22:56:42 <NewTobinParadigm> NT's architecure can achive far superior results if doing a true linux subsystem instead of a half-ass virt hack job
22:57:02 <NewTobinParadigm> they CALL it a subsystem
22:57:04 <tomman> butbutbut Dicker, er, Docker!
22:57:07 <IsambardPrince> Microsoft is falling apart.
22:57:09 <NewTobinParadigm> but it ain't an NT Subsystem
22:57:12 <IsambardPrince> Mass layoffs, hiring freezes.
22:57:26 <NewTobinParadigm> Go woke. Go broke.
22:57:27 <IsambardPrince> Absolutely falling apart. Plans to get rid of 10% of their employees, currently.
22:57:37 <tomman> I heard Apple is hiring~
22:57:53 <IsambardPrince> Even their profitable divisions like Office have been said watch closely who you hire, if you hire anyone.
22:58:01 <NewTobinParadigm> may as well just pledge yourself to satan and kill yourself .. would save time
22:59:35 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32899846 Chrome again killing your addons, because They Can™
23:00:05 <tomman> also, of course a stupid bugtracker requires Google WebComponents®, because it was made by Google
23:00:48 <IsambardPrince> I feel like a hipster, running SeaMonkey on GNOME.
23:01:00 <IsambardPrince> I feel like I should work up the energy to switch over to MATE.
23:01:08 <tomman> > SyntaxError: invalid identity escape in regular expression
23:01:10 <tomman> wait
23:01:18 <tomman> last time Monorail died on me was due to WebComponents crpaola
23:01:30 <tomman> now it's due to named capture groups?!
23:01:33 <tomman> WTF
23:01:34 <NewTobinParadigm> that isn't webcomponents
23:01:37 <NewTobinParadigm> but regex
23:01:55 <NewTobinParadigm> which v8 holds the only implimentation of these fucked up illogical regex sequences
23:02:48 <tomman> r.match(/[\p{L}\p{N}]/u))
23:02:49 <NewTobinParadigm> and because there ain't no one left at mozilla that is skilled enough they simply cut out and imported a piece of v8 to replace their former 3rd party regex parser to replace their orginal implimentation they should have just stuck with
23:03:03 <tomman> no, not named groups but fancy named character groups
23:03:21 <tomman> ...remember me why JS did got regexes in first place!?
23:03:35 <NewTobinParadigm> yeah and that is why the best way forward is to try and assimilate a later spidermonkey engine up as high as we can get to
23:04:00 <NewTobinParadigm> max theoretical would be as far as mozilla dropping support for visual studio but anything past 60 will be hard
23:04:06 <NewTobinParadigm> hardest especially for me
23:09:14 <IsambardPrince> I think that Brendan Eich said he wanted Scheme and Netscape made him make it look like Java because they were partnered with Sun.
23:09:29 <IsambardPrince> So he spent a couple days making it look more like Java because of that.
23:09:55 <tomman> oh, Scheme
23:10:02 <tomman> it brings me very BAD memories from college
23:10:06 <tomman> I nearly flunked that class
23:10:27 <tomman> ...saved it because there were actually 3 parts: Scheme, Prolog and Java
23:10:42 <tomman> actually liked Prolog, and I was already kinda proficient in Java back then