13:33:11 I am here for the meeting! 13:34:34 WG9s you are early 13:35:08 hyes but within 1/2 hour 13:36:54 hi IanN 13:37:11 hi WG9s 13:37:22 here for the meeting too, 13:37:28 hi .* 13:37:30 Meeting starts in 24 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2022-08-07 13:38:05 hi njsg 13:47:19 Meeting starts in 14 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2022-08-07 13:52:36 hi tonymec 13:52:45 * tonymec is "away" except at meetings. Hello IanN WG9s. 13:53:10 hello njsg 13:53:57 hello frg_away 13:54:17 tonymec happy Sunday 13:54:47 frg_away: thank you, the same for you. 13:58:43 Meeting starts in 3 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2022-08-07 14:01:11 Meeting time - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2022-08-07 14:03:25 Who's taking minutes? 14:04:52 me 14:05:04 thanks 14:05:07 Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank? 14:05:08 sorry distracted :) 14:05:27 I nominate Dirk Fieldhouse Lootyhoof and UCyborg for fixing up Stylem and DTA 14:05:29 https://github.com/Lootyhoof/stylem 14:05:30 https://github.com/dirkf/stylem 14:05:32 https://github.com/dirkf/downthemall-was-legacy 14:05:33 https://github.com/dirkf/downthemall-was-legacy/pull/1 14:06:09 seconded 14:07:37 Action Items 14:08:07 irc log should be mention on the website today: Bug 1782494 14:08:19 Just doing finishing touches to the patch. 14:08:23 thanks for the work frg_away 14:08:54 Reminds me that we need to thank hardys. Maybe second nomination or next time. 14:09:54 happy for it to be this time around 14:10:15 Oki will add him 14:11:12 Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure 14:12:33 Nothing done I suspect. ewong is busy. Missing Crash reporter is a bit inconvenient. Some users report Startup crashes with the Windows x86. But works for me so suspect third party software like AV or something else. 14:12:51 One reason more to discontinue the x86 :D 14:13:34 i'm not aware of any changes from the Linux side 14:13:40 Will update the x86 compiler for the next beta if it is clang related. 14:13:54 IanN no only Windows reported 2 times. 14:15:03 Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree 14:15:19 Third time was a crash playing media but it was 99.99% driver related. Was able to reproduce with old notebook. 14:15:57 comm-central is broken nut WG9s is working on a fix. Needs some updates. 14:16:28 need to avoid broken nuts :P 14:16:58 but ne no nut... release got a bunch of new backports. clobber is broken because of python 3 fixes but we will fix it up later. 14:17:18 i think WG9s has been testing rust 1.62 too I think 14:17:18 grump but me no nut 14:17:42 Is ok for me too. Running a build done with it. 14:18:26 No need to switch releases to it but can do I think. 14:20:08 Release Train 14:20:53 Looking at the latest 102 esr patches no need to do a security release so maybe 2.53.14 beta next week ? 14:22:05 yes, lots of backports, so would be good to get some testing done 14:24:16 Vacation time starting 08/21 so should be doable fast. 14:25:32 hello world! 14:25:50 is there any data on how many people STILL use the x86 builds? 14:26:05 (aside of me on my vintage laptops, but then, those are only for lulz) 14:27:45 tomman ewong would need to check download counts. Only VMs here left. Maybe WG9s also has some numbers. 14:28:47 Extensions Tracking 14:30:09 Stylish replacement Stylem is ok in 2.53.13 now and DTA should be soon. Not aware of any other breakage but there might be some. 14:30:10 wonder what happened with pdf.js 14:30:17 https://github.com/IsaacSchemm/pdf.js-seamonkey/releases this guy hasn't done a release in two years 14:30:21 it still works fine 14:30:30 but I fear for the day it inevitably breaks 14:31:11 tomman still updating pdf.js in our tree. Just have no time to add to SeaMonkey. 14:31:29 Testing it now and the in a Firefox build too. 14:31:39 frg_away: my problem with about:addons disappeared after disabling Add-on Manager Version number the way you said; but to make it work I had to remember about "Help → Restart with Add-Ons Disabled" and use it. 14:32:01 frg_away: oh, wasn't aware of that 14:32:42 tonymec Yes I ripped out some stuff too much probably. But only version number was affected. But not needed for a few releases now. 14:33:37 tomman we keep TB and Firefox building in outr trees for A/B testing. Also for tests which are broken for SeaMonkey for ages. 14:34:44 2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable 14:34:58 bau 14:35:41 ditto 14:38:14 AOB? 14:41:28 ok, next meeting is in 3 weeks on 28th August 14:41:53 thanks for everyone's time today, same bat channel, same bat time 14:45:18 i'll call that a meeting 14:45:31 see you 14:47:33 Opps seem I fell asleep while waiting for meeting start! 20:24:06 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2017/10/gifs-as-mp4s/ this of course is a double edged sword, but one I would wear with pride 20:24:28 on one side: videos are a TERRIBLE replacement for animated GIFs (which are already abused to hell these days since Internet memes became a thing) 20:24:55 but on the flip side: blocking videos is trivial (thanks Flashblock!), and as a bonus, it will save bandwidth for both server AND client too! 20:25:33 good luck blocking GIFs - you can stop animations from playing, but you can't stop the download of 20MB GIFs without fully disabling images and breaking the Internet 20:27:00 ...someone should revive Flashblock, get rid of the corpses (Flash is long gone, thankfully), and rename it to VideoBlock™ or something 20:27:52 luckily I haven't had to patch it in years (after the initial patching by the addon converter) 20:35:44 tomman uBlock does block images and media over a size you can set. 20:36:10 does that rely on having to download the image first? Or just works with headers? 20:37:23 tomman I don't know. All I know is that I block everything over 500kB and it seems to work :) Check Settings->Block media elements larger than ... 20:37:42 You can unblock permanetly per site then 20:38:06 Fortunately I don't hit animated GIFs that much lately (but I usually get assaulted by them every time I'm forced to rely on 3G/4G mobile data) 20:38:11 I donÄt think it downloads first. 20:38:23 and my policy with videos is "everything blocked by default unless whitelisted" 20:39:13 media.autoplay.enabled = false here. If it breaks a site watch me not to care. 20:40:45 that's a good start, but when you're stretching a paltry 1536MB/mo dataplan, you want to avoid such data from even entering into the wire 20:41:14 For now I don't care that much about finding a solution for GIFs, but next time my DSL dies, I'll seriously have to research 20:41:29 also the second reason I ended blocking videos: performance 20:42:02 when JWZ converted all his memeGIFs to memeP4s, performance of his site on my laptops tanked so hard the things were literally ON FIRE 20:42:17 (same with ol' Flash when websites started abusing it for ads) 20:43:18 tomman Problem with 1.5GB is usually Windows and AV updates. With SeaMonkey alone and uBlock NoScript it should work barely. 20:43:32 curiously enough, animated GIFs are relatively CPU-friendly despite being not hardware accelerated at all, but then I've yet to come across with a 720p GIF 20:43:55 frg_Away: oh, Linux helps wonders there - all updates here are manual 20:44:21 sadly the modern JS-first-and-only framework-of-the-week monsters drain that allotment in no time 20:45:10 Or you end saving data anyway because that due to of our underperforming 3G networks, sites will stop loading abruptly and not work at all 20:45:21 Personally I find js crap more offending. Megabytes of junk. Have not whitelistes clownflare and google stuff. Basically almost everything MS, google and the other ilk blocked by default. 20:45:25 since noone tests on 35% packet loss, high latency networks anymore 20:46:06 oh, just found a Discourse forum completely breaking on SeaMonkey with the dreaded "YOUR BROWSER IS OOOOOOOLD" 20:46:24 but then, Discourse has always been a pox since day one 20:46:30 (ask the The Daily WTF guys) 20:46:38 tomman beed there done that 2 years ago when I sitll traveled. Now bought a cheap 4G wifi router with a sim slot and use wlan. No crap 3G cards and drivers and the router is really small. 20:46:59 the problem here is not hardware, but our networks being unusable 20:47:03 even the 4G ones 20:47:49 tomman well looks like they use bigint now. Maybe to store the size of their bloated js files :) Personally they do the world a favor if they block access :D 20:47:56 https://forum.openwrt.org/ here is a example 20:48:02 I have yet to find one good discourse based forum. 20:48:08 other forums haven't "updated" yet 20:48:22 the main page renders, but no scrollbars 20:48:42 well, my interactions with Discourse had a very bad start when TDWTF migrated to it nearly 10 years ago 20:48:55 it was literally a carnage worthy from the bloodiest FPS game 20:49:06 the guys literally found exploits every single day 20:49:19 ...until Jeff Atwood got fed up and banned the whole community! 20:49:27 (they migrated to another bloatfest, NodeBB) 20:49:27 tomman might also need an override and set FX 87 or higher. Some of their dump clipbaord code was only supported by mozilla in these higher releaees and they blocked hard by version. 20:50:14 I can remember that they even ran a page monitoring the outages on TDWTF forums (which were very frequent, mainly due to Discourse being Discoursistent™) 20:50:36 they (Discourse, not TDWTF) even coined the "HTTP 500 OK" error code :D 20:51:29 as for me personally I had Discourse forums leaking RAM like mad on Mozilla-based browsers if you left a couple tabs open for more than a few hours 20:51:49 don't bother reporting bugs to them either 20:51:55 they may even ban you! 20:52:18 (and silently delete the entire bug report thread YES THEY DO NOT USE A PROPER BUGTRACKING SOFTWARE!) 20:53:06 for extra lulz: they came with the brilliant idea of "avatar CDNs" 20:58:04 Mozilla is probably using discourse to make it easier to not give support :) 22:37:11 html { overflow-y: hidden !important; } 22:37:19 DISCOURRRRRRSEEEEE!!! 22:37:43 that's Jeff Atwood's way to say "f*** you" to us not using Holy Chrome?! 22:37:57 this guy really has a hateboner on "graceful degradation" 22:38:28 I mean, the forum renders fine and it's somehow useable, but the guy really doesn't want me to scroll down 22:38:45 no, wait 22:38:49 I can't click hyperlinks 22:38:51 why 22:39:19 ah yeah, an empty click() JS handler 22:39:20 WHY 22:39:28 this goes beyond sabotage 22:39:34 this is plain webdev terrorism 22:42:33 https://discuss.python.org/ another victim 22:42:40 https://www.discourse.org/about#browser 22:42:46 "Discourse is designed for the next 10 years of the Internet, so the minimum browser requirements are high. " 22:42:57 ah, so Atwood is again with his "10 year plan" 22:43:01 no, the one high is him 22:43:26 "Discourse was built with high resolution touch devices in mind, and switches automatically to a mobile layout for small screens. " 22:43:46 oh, he is also with his "poor people with cheap/old devices are not worthy of my 10-year plan" 22:43:58 surprise: only iPhones are really supported 22:47:03 https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/17231/wtf-how-can-this-be-so-wrong-aka-the-discopocalypse-thread and this is why you do not want to host a Discourse forum, EVER 23:14:29 a lot of places are using either that discourse ore discussion prograqm, mailing lists are dead 23:28:30 even worse, hosting a Discourse instance involves Docker and friends 23:28:50 so either you pay for a Certified Dedicated Discourse Hosting™ (sold by Discourse themselves!) 23:28:52 or suffer 23:29:06 officially you can't install it the old-fashioned way, due to its insane complexity 23:29:18 (same happens with its lookalikes, like NodeBB) 23:29:43 gone are the times of "unzip, change permissions to something sane, open your browser and run setup.php"