00:35:53 njsg: They were some company that offers cheap debtor counseling. 00:36:04 They don't have much incentive to do anything except the bare minimum. 00:36:11 It's so simple that nobody fails. 00:36:47 It's like you have to go through and be shamed for being poor and unable to pay your hospital bills and your ex's car payment because we have Republicans. 00:37:08 So naturally, they just don't build the site very well. 00:37:26 The law says you have to have a two hour course, and they enforce it with some JavaScript they didn't bother to obfuscate. 00:42:05 njsg: BAPCPA was a Republican law to cut most people off from the bankruptcy courts unless they were so poor that their creditors would absolutely never get any money from them. The mandatory poor-shaming is now a Web site though. 00:42:32 It seemed to me to focus heavily on the idea if you're poor you were out buying flat screens and taking payday loans to go to Disney World. 00:42:43 It's a right-wing fantasy document, but you have to play the game. 00:44:44 I think adding Gemini to SeaMonkey would be logical if there are ever developer resources to implement it. 00:45:14 GeminiSpace is rapidly growing by pod and page count. By bandwidth, the Web will always be ahead of it just simply due to bloat. 00:46:03 I read news in SeaMonkey by having it all converted to GemText and then back to a simpler form of HTML without any formatting or scripts. Just 10-15 KB of text and HTML formatting. Not hundreds of MB of crap for each article. 00:47:18 Once it's in GemText, it's easy to convert back to basic HTML. 00:47:49 The Gemini to Web proxy doesn't specify a doctype other than "HTML", but I don't think it's even as complicated at HTML 3. 00:48:42 It looks like someone got into nano and wrote out the news into HTML in a very "just the facts" manner. 00:48:52 You could teach a 10 year old how to make pages like this. 00:49:02 It's really quite good. 00:50:53 I like Lynx the best under ideal circumstances, but many sites vomit out so much crap that it's not very easy to navigate with. 00:51:00 Even Richard Stallman is guilty of this! 01:00:26 computers were a mistake™ 01:00:32 no, seriously 01:00:36 computers WERE a mistake 01:21:57 Programs that give Web developers everything they ask for and more were a mistake. 01:22:18 Google has no incentive to stop them. The more crap they can put in there, the bigger any COMPETING browser has to be. 01:35:04 I was looking at the JSSS<>CSS thing in Netscape 4. 01:35:31 You could use either, but Netscape didn't fully test the CSS converter and so it only "mostly" worked with CSS Level 1. 01:36:02 You'd get all the features of CSS Level 1 and then some by using JSSS alongside it, but now you'd be writing in two style sheet formats on the same page. :P 01:37:23 A Web site could probably internally convert the page meant for Opera and Internet Explorer CSS into Netscape 4 using JSSS, but it would just be easier to give it a degraded page that would probably crash it. 01:37:28 Which is what happened. 03:35:00 One might want to look into the Overbite extension if they want to add Gemini support 03:35:43 I doubt we'd have Gemini support in SM out of the box, if gopher is not even included in the first place, so it should be done via an extension 06:20:00 I don't know how gemini works, but OverbiteFF does AFAIK handle the protocol-level conversation in the extension, so it is likely a good starting point, indeed. 11:15:59 could somebody who has a touchscreen computer report on their experiences with seamonkey on it? do scrollables scroll by finger as they do in FF and TB? 12:34:45 AmyMalik well i have a stupid question. If you do not have a touchscreen computer why do you care. and if you do what is preventing you from testing? 12:35:28 I have a touchscreen computer. I wanted to hear if anyone else did before I go into the situation blind WG9s 12:35:46 good to know you think I should go in blind tho. 12:35:48 :/ 12:36:35 well you can install seamonkey without making it the default browser easy to then see if it works as you want rather than asking someone else to do testing for you, 12:38:15 i had a touchxcreen computer but is shit the bed I think this all worked as you requested but I no longer have a way to test. 12:44:37 apz is enabled but not everything. zooming is disabled by default. Fix still go in and certainly not at the same level as current Firefox but should be ok. Best to try it yourself. 18:59:29 frg_Away: Have you noticed the username/password prompt for news.mozilla.org? I started seeing it yesterday afternoon. 19:00:58 I guess we have to find a different group on a different server to use for testing. 19:17:35 WaltS48 Yes already removed it but maybe it was premature. Might be temporary. njsg told me that 216.166.97.169 still works. 19:17:51 giganews might experience problems. 21:36:45 found a local provider site with some screwy logon issues on SM but not on "recent FF" 21:37:17 https://mi.simple.com.ve/ doesn't let me login from SeaMonkey - it fails with the equivalent of "somehting happened" 21:37:26 but on FF91ESR logs on fine 21:37:34 an UA override did nothing 21:37:39 so I'm checking the headers... 21:39:17 https://paste.debian.net/hidden/da1d5b1a/ headers from failed logon at SeaMonkey... 21:40:08 https://paste.debian.net/hidden/dea4756f/ ...and headers from successful logon with FF91ESR 21:40:37 notice that FF adds "Origin: https://mi.simple.com.ve" and "Sec-Fetch-*" headers 21:41:02 and after reading the server response JSON ({"error":"data required","message":"Bad request domain not match..."}), it... makes sense? 21:41:09 maybe the "Origin" header is now important? 21:41:23 (This portal used to work fine with SM a few months ago, but OF COURSE GOOGLE!!!") 21:43:37 ...and indeed, if I modify the request headers (wow, TIL you can do that!) to add those four extra headers, I now get the expected response from the server (a logon token) 21:44:39 ...actually, only the Origin header is required 21:44:48 and today's Chromeism is... 21:45:35 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Origin this 21:45:41 which was implemented on FF70 21:45:54 (and always present on Chrome, of f'ing course) 21:46:05 ...and on IE tool!? 21:47:00 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446344 relevant Bugzilla 21:49:22 Alternative fix: network.http.sendOriginHeader = 2 21:49:53 yup, that works. 21:50:12 the insecurity theater has been successfully pleased. GAAAH! 21:57:10 tomman Bug 1424076 is not in. Not sure if setting 2 all the time is ok. 1 should be ok Wasn't this the bug orginally needed for the clownflare captcha to succeed? 21:58:12 There was some serious refactoring needed like bug 1504085 so only add the first one for now. 21:58:22 frg_Away: with 1 it also works too 21:59:34 what's the difference between 0,1,2 on this specific pref? 21:59:52 tomman Seems the header spec now changes monthly. 22:00:25 ah yeah, forgot to blame Clownflare too 22:00:34 +// Include an origin header on non-GET and non-HEAD requests regardless of CORS 22:00:35 +// 0=never send, 1=send when same-origin only, 2=always send 22:00:37 +pref("network.http.sendOriginHeader", 0); 22:00:55 makes sense 22:01:14 first place I find that is now strict on that header 22:01:30 (again: that's a recent update - a few months ago it didn't care) 22:01:41 tomman 2 might be problematic but I have not turned into a web dev yet understanding all of it :) 22:02:45 Not sure if it has only privacy implications when setting to 2. The followup bugs are not clear to me. Privacy is out of the door anyway so I tend to not care about fingerprinting stuff. You will be tracked anyway somehow. 22:03:31 and the personalized ads from the trackers vanish in the uBlock realm. 22:05:35 It's so nice of Libera Chat to demand SASL like Crown Prince of Korea-Node. Gave me something else stupid to figure out in ChatZilla. 22:06:27 wat 22:06:40 I haven't bothered with SASL 22:07:29 It kept disconnecting me and then said my current VPN IP, I guess, was on a k-line unless I log in with SASL. 22:08:55 ah, so you've hit an IP blacklist 22:08:58 those are always so fun 22:09:51 "We punish you for not wanting to reveal your ISP IP address to the public! 22:10:27 I had someone threaten me with a defamation lawsuit and send letters to my home after using the IP address I was connected to Ubuntu's chatroom on Freenode with a long time ago. 22:10:47 They paid an attorney to contact my ISP and figure out who I was. 22:10:56 They never proceeded with the lawsuit, but it was unnerving. 22:13:13 I often hit those blacklists with my actual public IP (I don't bother with VPNs anyway) 22:13:30 when that happens, I just make a new MAC address and reset my IP 22:15:05 Well, the VPN is basically to try to avoid crazy people like the guy who doxxed me and paid a lawyer to threaten a defamation lawsuit. 22:15:22 Who does that? The lawyer must have charged him $1,500 to do all of that even in 2008! 22:16:55 I wrote his attorney back telling him that his client would be sorry because I would invoke SLAPP Back and he'd end up suffering extreme financial losses due to his own misguided behavior. 22:17:02 That was the last I ever heard of it. 22:17:47 But I doubt anyone sending letters to Panama would find out much about me. 22:22:18 http://techrights.org/2022/07/07/baker-salaries/ 23:33:42 https://blog.stackblitz.com/posts/webcontainers-are-now-supported-on-firefox/ wtf is this garbage 23:34:22 oh, so these guys are pushing harder and harder the "turn the web browser into the next OS" pandemic, cool 23:35:59 > This isn't developers not caring about the user. These are huge UX advantages, and there's no way to get them all other than building on the web. 23:36:03 stay klassy, HN 23:36:16 how about we devs stop making our users even dumber?