Ok, decided to mess with whatever Google WebComponents™ we may have here

dom.webcomponents.enabled and dom.webcomponents.customelements.enabled are enough to fool Pixiv to actually let me log in

(you STILL have to change your language to Japanese to get a classic Pixiv ID logon form, instead of "Continue with $SOCIALNETWORKS login" crapola)

once logged in, Pixiv doesn't seem to use WebComponents™ at all

(so it's safe to turn off those prefs afterwards)

Oh, and the whole site is laggy as hell, but that's because Pixiv turned into a SPA quite some time ago

What is the SeaMonkey project's position towards "telemetry"?

msiism: from what I've seen as an user, the position is "none"

other than optional crash reports

Disabled I rip it out from 2.53.x left and right whenever I haver time.

Crash reports are ok. Telemetry in theory too but not how this is implemented and used to justify feature removals.

And the amount of telemetry in hot code is staggering.

amazingly, this works fine on SM~

(may need to enable WASM)

frg_Away: Okay, thanks. That sound reassuring.

By the way, the release date for 2.53.11 on the website is still not correct, as it seems.

Now, apparently, the dependence on Mozilla's code base if an ever-increasing problem for SeaMonkey. Are there, maybe, plans to break free from that?

msiism To stand on you own feet it needs contributors. So it is backports and try to play catch-up for a future release right now.

I see. So, there's actually no strict/hard dependency.

Dependent on bugzilla and storage space for the releaases mostly. Both could be replaced if in a pinch but would add more work maintaining a bugzilla instance and drive up costs for storage space. l10n translations via pontoon would be a bigger problem. So if all goes up in flames it would not be the end but...

Good to know.

I guess I'll donate some money to the project this year then.

frg_Away: what's Mozilla current position towards the project? I mean, SeaMonkey is largely independent these days, but...

and gotta love Mozilla's taste for killing things they don't like anymore

doubt they're going to kill all "ex-Mozilla" projects from using Bugzilla, tho

Does SeaMonkey still support Gopher, by the way?

We are still tolerated for now. This might change or not. IanN_Away or ewong still maintain contacts. I am not a "peoples person" so abstain.

Gopher is still supported with an add-on but I am thinking it might be time to remove the remaining traces. As long as it does not interfere with backports it can stay.

heh, I thought Gopher replacement these days was Gemini

Gemini is interesting too, but no web browser I know supports it. Gopher is/was supported for legacy reasons.

Gemini = yaip (yet another internet protocol)

:)

I've seen Gemini constantly pushed by some Hackernews as replacement for bloatweb

curiously, I haven't seen it being promoted as replacement for Gopher

but I guess the nerd who came up with Gemini wasn't even alive (or too young) when Gopher came out

(fair disclaimer: I was a baby back then too)

:)

I don't even know when Gopher was introduced.

And I almost never use it.

Seriously I think ftp is still useful but Gopher is ancient history even if some people still push it. Same for npapi. For the new protocols. They seem to come and go and if pushed by google are just tools for undermining privacy.

But, once in a while, being aple to access someone's Gopher hole comes in handy.

s/aple/able/

I hope it is carbon neutral too or I won't support it.

:)

I've talked to solderpunk, the guy who started Gemini. Didn't seem like a zealot at all.

I am just tired of all the reinventing the wheel instead of making existing stuff better. Sometimes you need to start fresh but just look at Linux which will go nowhere on the desktop because of this.

TDE… there's still TDE. :)

Yeah, but I get what you mean.

By the way, it the SeaMonkey Association "gemeinnützig"?

s/it/is/

msiism I know but TDE has the same problem we have. Not enough contributors. Yes the e.V. is gemeinnützig. Status was approved last year I think.

Nice.

Yeah, I wish TDE and SeaMonkey had more contributors. I don't know any C++, though, so I'm not much help.

It is not programming alone and not c++ only. Website and help content localization testing and and and.

Okay, I see.

Yeah, I guess I could help somewhat with the website and documentation.

I've contributed some stuff to the TDE wiki recently as well.

I am happy to format anything into a patch for the site. Sources are here: gitlab.com/seamonkey-project/website

and mirrored in hg (up to date soon again): hg.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/seamonkey-project-org

msiism befoe there were real web search engines there were gopher and archie that would do searches for you. not really relvant anymore. they did the search when you asked rather than indexing before adn returning reults almost immediately.

frg_Away: Okay, noted. Do I strictly need a gitlab.com account for contributing there? I mean, Git is supposed to work in a decentralized manner, right?

I sure don't need an account to clone the repository.

WG9s: Interesting, I hadn't heard of those.

I quite like the idea of (semi-)human.edited Web directories, actually.

msiism No. You need a bugzilla account. The correct way is to open a bug, provide a git or hg patch and ask for feedback/review. I am ok with changes sources and can do the patches. See bug 1755291 for the latest release notes. Basically the same for other stuff.

Yeah, that should work then.

I'll have a look.

release date on website corrected

Nice.

wow, TDE is still going?

I always wanted to try it, as a former user of KDE during the long gone 3.5-era of glory

(same as GNOME - I'm now a happy MATE camper... mostly)

Plasma looks pretty, sure... but it's braindamaged down to the bone :/

I miss my Fedora Core 6 / KDE 3.5 setup - that wasn't perfection by any means, but got close

I'm using TDE's current release on a testing machine running Devuan chimaera.

It's pretty good already.

Yes when KDE 4 came out it was good to have it. For what I do now with Linux (backup server only) I can live with latest KDE. Wish someone would put the gnome sources in the null device. I can't stand this crap.

I actually likes Gnome "2". "2" because I think Gnome "3" started at 2.x, for whatever reason.

Haven't used it since.

If the null device is not available rm -f would be ok too :)

:)

2 was at least usable. Current 3 or 4 desktops make the Firefox ui look good.

GNOME2 is still alive and kicking

we call it "MATE" :)

sadly it got infected with the GTK3 pandemic years ago (they had no other good options: forking GTK2 was not in the table)

still, it's pretty serviceable, and it's my daily driver on Debian

but someday I'll go and install TDE, to relive my good ol' years of "I'm not fighting against my computer every day!"

msiism: gnome development has been the odd minor vrsions are never released and deveopment to the t he next stable version which alwa ys have an even numbered minor version so the last odd minor version of gnome2.xx was actually a pre version 3. this is how gnome versioning has always worked.

I see.

wonder why there hasn't been efforts to get TDE accepted into Debian

MATE went that painful way almost a decade ago, but eventually got into the repos

Probably because it wasn't yet ready.

Currently, the project is moving to CMake as the build system. I guess it doesn't make much sense to include it in the Debian repositories before that is finished.

Because the mix of autotools and cmake causes more work.

well, last time I looked into TDE was circa 2013 or so

I guess it has matured a lot since then, I hope

It seems so.

I remember cmake .. unfortunately... Another braindead make substitute which a few years ago would not even refresh the depedencies correctly when something changed. That was when I still compiled kde myself.

As far as I know, cmake fits TDE's C++ stuff better. But that's all I know.

Any my knowledge might not be very accurate.

I know nothing about build systems, but then I'm a Java dev by trade :D

I guess that makes me an Ant expert, except that I've never got my hands wet - that's what my IDE does for me

I've mostly written shell scripts up until now.

all I know is ./configure && make && sudo make install, and if CMake, I'll just run cmake-gui

tomman At work we used jenkins with Eclise/Java. Fought with it too a few times :) Wonder what the new shop I join in May uses.

regarding CMake, I wished more projects would integrate CPack support into their buildscripts

this makes building Debian (and other distro) packages a breeze

I'm not a fan of the "make install" way, as I often end with litter scattered around my filesystem

(and back in my highly mutant Fedora Core ages, that actually brought pain to me sometimes)

frg_Away: I still use good ol' Netbeans (which still defaults to Ant), now under the care of Apache's House for Forgotten/Disowned Oracle Projects

tomman: I throw all third-party software into /opt.

This way, you can usually get rid of the whole thing by removing a single directory.

I wished more distros defaulted to /opt instead of /usr/local...

or rather, buildscripts

it's easy to forget about some ancient DLL on /usr/local/lib which is going back to bite your privates years later down the road

Yeah, but /opt vs. /use/local is a debate, so you need to choose yourself. :)

just my opinion, but /usr/local should be under control of your system admin third party things should install in .opt and then your sysadmin should make symlinks in /usr/locl for things wants to make available to all users and users should have /usr/local/bin in their command path

Interesting. I also put stuff I wrote myself into /usr/local (when I want it available system-wide).

exactly how i think /usr/local was designed

third party apps should not install there by default

That symlink idea is really good, though. I put that in my notebook.

Oh well, those community guidelines at bugzilla.mozilla.org, I hope I won't get into trouble…

I mean, I'm a decent person. But you never know…

Let's find out. ;)

Did Netscape/Mozilla also call the product that SeaMonkey continues to develop "Internet Application Suite"?

I seem to remember they called it Netscape Communicator. as opposed to the browser only Netscape Navigator.

Well, I guess internet application suite if quite a decent term.

I'll use that for the link to SeaMonkey on my website.

WG9s: by default, /usr/local is empty on a stock Debian install, so I could just nuke the whole thing and start over should things go south

but I'm not sure if this was always the proper behavior across all Linux distros historically

Yeah, but you can't so it on a per-application basis.

s/so/do/

it also gets messy if you install many separate programs there that way

Yeah, that's what I meant.

so that's why I prefer the "build distro-specific package"

but then I get that this is a PITA given that there are many special snowflake distros out there

In /opt you have a per-application hierarchy.

msiism: that could work, depending on the software, if it is well behaved and self-contained

FWIW, my SeaMonkey setup lives under /opt

Like /opt/nano, /opt/loksh.

with a symlink to seamonkey under /usr/bin (handled by Debian alternatives system, IIRC)

I think the software doesn't need to be self-contained for that, really. Because inside e.g. /opt/nano, you'll have the usual structure: bin, share, whatever.

I then just add /opt/nano/bin to my PATH and /opt/nano/share/man or some such to my MANPATH.

(If I remember right.)

back when I was an encoder in the anime scene, I kept my own ffmpeg+x264+stuff builds under /opt too, and used scripts to invoke those instead of system defaults (which were too old on Debian anyway)

Yeah, Debian having an ancient Nano is the reason I do this.

To be fair, though, I'm practically on Debian oldstable.

my ages of tinkering with Linux distros are long over

I just use Debian Stable + backports these days

Yeah, I'm mainly on Devuan, with the occasional test run of others on my laptop.

except for stuff you're unlikely to find in distros, like emulators (and SeaMonkey, of course)

building .DEBs for Dolphin it's a breeze because they wisely used CPack into their CMake scripts

but when they switch to a newer GCC/Qt version, I guess it's time to update my distro :D

I have not managed to build a useful custom DEB package yet. For me, it's hugely complicated.

I once tried out Slackware and was able to build decent custom packages within a few days…

I found that kind of telling.

I used to build .RPMs too back in my Fedora Core era

sure enough, RPM's .spec format was easier to understand than Debian's file/dir hierarchy

but on the flip side, Debian stuff is neatly packed away into its own directory, unlike RPM "everything is scattered away"

haven't used other distros

The problem with Debian is also that they have, like, three ways to actually do packaging.

maybe if some day I finally snap off, I'll go Linux From Scratch™

"distro? I AM the distro!"

I don't think LFS is a nice experience.

I mean, basically, youll just sit there figuring out build systems and compiling…

I guess it's boring and milling in the long run.

tomman: reminds of of what I say when i get an error that says contact your system administrator!

msiism: that's why I said "when I finally snap off" :)

:)

the nearest I've been from the Gentoo Way™ was back in my Fedora Core 6 setup

which was mutant beyond reason

I mean, I guess once most of it is automated, it's less of a hassle. But getting that ging is a hassle.

installed in late '06, used it years after its expiration date, until early 2013 when I finally wiped that drive

custom kernels, bunch of rebuilt system libraries... and could never go past kernel 2.6.27 because ATi's proprietary blob

also, a very crumbling system base

but I was a bored college student back then

Sounds terrific. ;)

I finally reached sanity in 2012, when I escaped that hell to the sanity of Debian

but then, I've never had a major Debian update break my system

compare to Fedora, where major breakage was the norm back in the early Core era

I switched to Devuan during Debian jessie's life cycle.

(one of the reasons I held onto FC6 for too long - updating to F7 was a mess)

reminder to myself: update this machine to Bullseye - it's my last standing oldstable box, but also my daily driver

Another question about seamonkey-project.org/releases/:

Is it normal practive to have the latest two releases listed on there?

I mean, I'm not sure whether the "SeaMonkey 2.53.11 Beta 1" still being there is intentional.

Especially given the fact that it's also listed under "Old and Unofficial Releases".

these days "reinventing the wheel" *always* makes me think of the ONN MacBook Wheel video...

Sometimes, though, reinventing the wheel does lead to a better wheel.

Well, not reinventing, probably, but buildung the wheel from scratch.

that does come in handy, say, in railways

or at least doing some maintenance to counter it having gotten worn out

WG9s: msiism: there's currently veronica-2 at floodgap, gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/v2/vs - and I think there was at least one archie alive in Poland :-)

Okay, w3m does not support Gopher…

but this was less webby was a way from the bowser to access a legacy like pre 1994 search thing.

... on the web at archie.icm.edu.pl?

msiism: I think of text-based browsers, at least elinks and lynx support it. elinks is optional (configure setting) and may be silently overriden by the default gopher:-handler (opens lynx).

msiism: ok, w3m doesn't support gopher... but does it support gopher+? :-P

Lynx can do Gopher.

Hi 50 other participants!

hi WaltS48

browsehappy.com this page is extremely offensive to me

and of course, SteamDB is slapping a nice button linking to it

oh joy

"ReferenceError: customElements is not defined"

graphs are borked, again

also:

"SyntaxError: bad method definition"

because...

this: class SearchableSelect extends HTMLSelectElement{dropdown=null; ...bunch of code snipped }

sounds a lot like Danbooru's error last week

minimal test case: class foo{baz=null}

that's a public instance field

funny enough the Spanish version has a disclaimer that the English version lacks about this syntax still being a draft

but it seems to be ES2019 syntax

I guess I won't be bothering filling a bug on SteamDB again, as the last time I got a fix, but also a stupid reminder that "lololol your browser is based off old code"

tomman: You can "always" play Neverball.

at this stage, I feel that each yearly ECMAScript release is made out of spite, to screw up with sane people

Neverball doesn't require any of that…

"butbutbut it's less code"

cool, why do you need to rewrite your codebase every year?!

"butbutbut it's modern!"

cool, have you ever heard about "if it works, don't fix it?"

"butbutbut Apple/Google does it"

"People here needed to get into writing enterprise-level JS." ;)

cool, but you'll never be Apple/Google

no, Java IS Enterprise Gear Spec

JavaScript is the clown school of languages

What about Python?

many apps never recovered from the Great Python 2->3 Move

I can imagine.

Maybe Tcl isn't so bad, after all. I'm also trying to learn Racket.

tomman: oh, browse happy. that kind of site will always be at odds with how I see the web and the internet