13:30:07 meeting starts in 30 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2021-06-27 13:53:26 meeting starts in 7 minutes - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2021-06-27 13:56:34 Hi rsx11m 13:56:41 hi rsx11m 13:56:58 hi frg IanN 13:57:15 hi 13:57:29 Hi njsg 13:57:37 ditto 14:01:11 meeting time - https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2021-06-27 14:01:48 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2021-06-27 14:01:51 oops 14:02:01 Who's taking minutes? 14:02:07 me 14:02:12 thanks frg 14:02:24 Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank? 14:02:36 hrosik and buc for the logger and WG9s for his cool patch rename script 14:03:11 seconded 14:05:43 Action Items 14:07:31 Nothing new from me. Need to do a cleanup for the website 14:07:45 wrt libera. Ony typo at least 14:07:55 But not really an action item. 14:08:38 frg: and there's been movement on the logbot too 14:09:09 IanN yes I am not sure we should publish yet because the cert issue? 14:09:28 frg: true, work in progress... 14:09:58 When that's sorted out, it'll have to be updated in the wiki (as some templates have a link to the now-old logbot) 14:10:02 frg: typo in announcement - "more just use you[r] favorite search engine" 14:10:26 hi WaltS48 14:10:32 rsx11m yes this one. Call me slacker. Wanted to do it for a few days now. 14:10:41 Hi WaltS48 14:10:50 oh, ok - thought you've missed it ;-) 14:11:03 In the wiki, some IRC links have already been updated, I changed some and Rainer changed others. 14:11:07 hi WaltS48 14:11:29 The url only works good in 2.53.8b1+ too. 14:11:41 Greetings, been playing on Windows. 14:11:52 hi WaltS48 14:12:06 there is at least one article with links to freenode that is now protected, so it can't be easily edited, at least not by non-admins 14:12:53 njsg current link or outdated? Maybe unlink the article then? 14:13:30 frg: you may want to add port 6697 explicitly, older cZ versions default to 9999 for irsc 14:13:48 frg: some links are actually still irc:, not ircs:, it's probably something else to change; (most of the time I just replaced the server name in the URL) 14:14:12 * njsg should probably think about using a wiki template for this 14:14:17 https://libera.chat/guides/connect 14:14:32 frg: this one https://wiki.mozilla.org/IRC 14:14:42 Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure 14:16:43 ewong: is still working on changes to the infra 14:17:08 Nothing from me. Will update compiler for 2.53.9. Maybe tackle switch to clang 11 for mac then too. 14:18:05 njsg seems they do no longer want irc: As of March 2020, IRC.mozilla.org has been permanently decommissioned 14:18:06 Would ignore it and unlink if linked from our pages. 14:18:33 Any news about updates? 14:19:14 hi i am here for a little while 14:19:15 Seemed to work fine other than for 2.53.7 en-US. 14:19:27 Hi again WG9s 14:19:56 frg: it does not seem to be linked by any page with "SeaMonkey" in the title 14:19:56 frg: I believe ewong was trying to automate the upload and update process 14:21:00 njsg then I would rest the case. Is marked outdated and I suspect no one will look there. 14:23:01 rust 1.53 is out I think 14:23:51 Yes. We could use it for the next release if we want to. By then should be in the release channel. 14:25:05 Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree 14:25:24 All building I think. 14:26:01 Has the recent c-c breakage been oficially remedied? 14:26:11 Forgot the bug number. 14:26:42 frg: the webidl thing? 14:26:47 mapi? 14:26:56 IanN yes 14:27:20 frg: yep, we had a fix accepted then the whole thing got changed anyway 14:28:16 well after the 10th enhancement we will probably at the old code again :) 14:29:14 * frg thinks they need rounded tabs again too 14:30:01 true, what with the change in Windows 11 14:31:32 Anyway 2.53 has a ton of new backports. Is this still source tree or already release? 14:32:34 gitlab is broken becuase of web components usage. Like mozilla they seem to follow the leader into the abyss :) 14:33:11 :S 14:33:29 https://github.com/JustOff/github-wc-polyfill/releases 14:34:10 Fixes it for now. I think JustOff should get the next FotFT award. 14:35:46 Need to get PerformanceObserver backported too. I don't know why this is really needed for production code but seems to pop up more and more. Waterfox already has it. 14:37:07 more fun for you frg 14:38:01 Release Train 14:38:22 Bug 1386021 so most of it is in probably. 14:38:48 2.53.8 is done. Just needs to be uploaded. 14:39:03 hopefully this coming week 14:39:21 If I understand correctly ewong wants to do it together with enabling updates. 14:39:53 Just need to make sure that no pre 2.53 users get updated. I think njsg recently tested and that was the case. 14:40:25 frg: we also need to make sure symbols are uploaded 14:41:06 IanN yes unless they kill our access first. Thought it was July? 14:42:52 Becuase of extensive l10n changes I already filed a bug for 2.53.9 Bug 1717528 14:43:03 Just so that we can sort it out early. 14:44:59 frg: yes, though it seems TB are also having problems getting a suitable alternative (bug 1608971) 14:45:14 Also please test the current unofficial builds for exntension and devtools breakage. I am going thru the mozilla patch queue for stylo and webext changes among others and if I pick a bad patch this might break things. Bad as in "lets remove things becuase we don't care about the past" 14:46:51 IanN well it will be fun when this get changed to be more like telemetry. But central is already broken for us so watch me don't care :) 14:47:02 Not a new, improved way to do those things? 14:47:50 WaltS48 crash reports? 14:47:54 WaltS48: new and improved way number 346 14:48:40 It is basically google breakpad so worst case for us I could pluck a crash report apart manually. 14:48:58 At least on Windows :) 14:49:10 frg: sort of, but mozilla forked it 14:49:23 Yes 14:50:12 * frg will rewrite it in rust 14:50:30 * frg is a cynic 14:53:59 Anyway release train. I have my hands full and not being able to do much with 2.57 currently. But given that 2.53 and 2.57 become colser every day not that important. 14:54:07 ^closer 14:54:42 Extension Tracking 14:55:03 IanN I think you have fun with cZ 14:55:49 :? 14:55:56 frg: yes, adding all sorts of bits and pieces 14:56:10 native SASL support 14:57:26 8-) 14:57:46 Now that we more or less integrated the code do we need a third_party directory for license stuff? 14:58:38 frg: where's that? 14:59:27 c-c has a comm\third_party 15:00:22 but also some license stuff in mail. 15:01:02 frg: 7zip? 15:01:18 comm\mail\base\content\overrides\app-license.html 15:02:42 Maybe something to discuss later. 15:03:07 yup 15:03:26 2.Next, Planning, Feature List and Roundtable 15:04:15 BAU 15:05:09 bau++ 15:05:36 keeping on keeping on 15:06:39 Hello! Since rust 1.53 was mentioned previously, I just wanted to report that compiling 2.53.9 beta1 pre on Arch Linux with rust 1.53 and clang 12 (and using system-nss -- thanks for the patch!) worked fine. 15:06:40 two steps forward one back :) 15:07:46 teruna thanks for confirming. nss is still unsupported. Seems they didn't change internal structures but need to go thru the bugs to be sure. But only after 78 is discontinued. 15:07:46 teruna: thanks 15:08:25 AOB? 15:08:49 too hot here currently 15:09:09 only 17C here today 15:09:53 24C and a bit muggy. 15:10:10 anyway, thanks for your time everyone, next meeting in 2 weeks time, same bat channel, same bat time 15:10:21 yepp 15:10:24 same new bat channel 15:10:34 28C and 55% humidity here 15:10:36 new and improved ;-) 15:10:39 this was the first meeting on the brand new network, right? 15:10:58 tomman: correct 15:11:11 tomman yes. Was planned later but freenode had other plans. 15:11:22 idiots 15:11:41 someone found the "self destruct" button :-/ 15:12:18 for the nth time 15:12:54 ok, falling back asleep now 15:12:58 bye! 15:12:59 nn rsx11m 15:13:14 They are now in the freenode zone. Reminds me of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere which ended the same way. With a bang... 15:13:50 actually the freenode digital autonomous zone 15:14:19 see you next time 15:14:30 see you 16:29:17 "everything grayed out is copied without translating" 16:29:26 ...except that's not how this works 16:29:48 Pontoon seems to highlight in gray odd stuff, like raw XML or strange punctuation 16:30:03 yet there is this es-AR maintainer that interprets it as "copy it verbatim" 16:30:43 most of my translations (mainly from stuff like ) got reverted 16:31:46 https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:es-AR/Style_Guide their style guide says nothing about that supposedly "grayed out" text 16:32:03 If the es-AR cZ locale ends sucking, don't blame me :/ 16:33:04 to be fair, this doesn't make a new contributor feel comfortable, but then, it's not my first rodeo 16:36:38 tomman we can always put it in our l10n if it sucks and you and unable to push a correction. 16:41:38 frg_Away: I need to look for proper communication channels with the maintainers, that's for sure 16:42:10 better know what's the proper criteria instead of getting my improvements reverted by clear machine-translation or Spanglish crap 16:45:03 tomman The current pushes are here https://hg.mozilla.org/l10n-central/es-AR 16:45:05 Maybe ask one of the two doing them for advice? 16:46:00 worst case grab the source files change them and send them to me. I will put them in 2.53 and 2.57 then. Just need to be careful when I or IanN_Away sync new stuff. 17:11:16 Wanted. 17:11:20 A tarball, 278Mb, xzipped, a source inside. 17:11:27 The finder will be the first to receive information about new errors in it. :) 17:50:32 Quickest way is to get it from https://gitlab.com/seamonkey-project/seamonkey-2.53-mozilla/-/tree/2_53_8_final and the comm dir from https://gitlab.com/seamonkey-project/seamonkey-2.53-comm/-/tree/2_53_8_final 17:50:34 https://gitlab.com/seamonkey-project/seamonkey-2.53-mozilla/-/archive/2_53_8_beta_01/seamonkey-2.53-mozilla-2_53_8_beta_01.tar.bz2 17:50:35 https://gitlab.com/seamonkey-project/seamonkey-2.53-comm/-/archive/2_53_8_final/seamonkey-2.53-comm-2_53_8_final.tar.bz2 17:59:37 frg: Yep, it is suitable for individuals. But the distributions want the same tarball (bit to bit) as will be published in the official upstream. So we are compelled to wait for, and then our users wait one or two weeks while the new update is in the "testing" distro branches. And only then you will know about new bugs... :) 18:03:11 Star Trek has the answer: A difference which makes no difference is no difference 18:03:13 The release was done with this source code bit by bit. 18:06:14 Well, sha sum matches as well? (Including timestamps etc.) 18:08:59 It is surely possible to create tarball with the *same" source, but because of different timestamps, different file order, different program to create tar and xz, the final sha sum will be changed. Which is not allowed bu the distros' policies. It is the reason why the final tarball is wanted right now. 18:18:36 wtf 18:19:12 shouldn't the hashes that matter are from the actual tarball contents? 18:22:37 tomman: another timestamps, another order of files etc. can lead to dirrerence in the checksums. 18:23:36 I get that (metadata changes of course will lead to distinct tarball hashes), but are we shouldn't be looking at the actual contents? 18:23:51 to be fair, distros policies sometimes are ridiculously rigid in that sense 18:25:44 tomman: These are rules that have been formed over the years. Apparently there is a reason for this. All the successful distros have such ones. 18:28:55 frg: Well, I've prepared "a final form" tarballs from the gitlab code. Just to check whether it differs with the future "official" ones... http://buc.me/tmp-2.53.8/ 18:35:35 It's sad that no one except me and WG9s has the ability to upload anything on a controlled server. :( Especially considering that this happens in the context of a classic "open source" project. Something goes wrong. And it is actually toxic. (Me is angry and going to walk). 20:18:37 tomman Seems ### DO NOT LOCALIZE THE *.params STRINGS ### is not observed in es-AR. 20:21:31 Oh, those aren't meant to be localized? Oops~ 20:24:32 Although someone had started localizing those before me 20:31:37 Any specific reason of why those should not be translated? Will break something, or it's matter of consistency across locales? 20:32:08 (IMO I would localize them as those are user-facing help text most of the cases, but that doesn't seem the general rule) 20:33:19 I didn't look in the code that deep yet but from the comment the strings are used to actually create the commands. So something the irc server will never understand. I think they should be removed from the locale code aor at least moved into a separate file but something for later. 20:35:21 tomman There are a bunch of access keys different in central too compared to 2.53 but I don't sync them. Last time I did IanN_Away had nightmares :) They need to be checked all if they are acutally correct and not duplicates. I can try to do a diff later if you want to take a look. 20:36:03 +# ChatZilla uses cmd..* to construct the command's help, 20:36:04 +# parameters and any UI labels. For the command to continue to function, the 20:36:06 +# *.params entries MUST NOT BE CHANGED. Hopefully in the future you will be 20:36:07 +# able to localize these items as well. 20:36:09 +# 20:36:11 +### DO NOT LOCALIZE THE *.params STRINGS ### 20:36:21 Well, gotta revert those here then 20:36:38 it means we would be shipping not only a sucky locale, but also a broken cZ too! 20:37:23 Curiously enough some of my wrongly-localized params have been already approved! 20:37:41 I really need to get in touch with the other maintainers here to avoid making an (even bigger) mess 20:39:21 Well you already mentioned locale.authors = XXX REEMPLACE ESTE VALOR CON UNA LISTA DE NOMBRES SEPARADA POR PUNTO Y COMAS PARA sU EQUIPO DE LOCALIZACIÓN XXX too :) 20:41:34 that was a completely pointless reversal, indeed 21:54:45 I'm gonna to backport bug 1712498, bug 1713458 and bug 1713467 to downstream's 2.53.8, since it implements the second proposal from bug 1619108 (irc link behaviour) in a most complete way (and since the initial change was already in downstream's 2.53.7). Pls stop me now if for some reason this is clearly a bad idea. 22:08:30 XXX;REEMPLACE;ESTE;VALOR;CON;UNA;LISTA;DE;NOMBRES;SEPARADA;POR;PUNTO;Y;COMAS;PARA;sU;EQUIPO;DE;LOCALIZACIÓN;XXX 22:08:33 there, fixed it 22:08:38 * njsg hides 22:11:29 buc They are not yet reviewed. I am going thru them right now and don't expect generel problems but i would wait. 22:12:39 Personally I am a non fan of the change becuase opens links in a background tab with my configuration here and not switching focus. But formally correct behaviour just not liking it in cZ. 22:12:48 ^general 22:22:43 frg: If something is wrong with them, I believe it will be reported in our testing cycle (one week). Or nobody uses cZ here... :) 22:30:10 IanN_Away: with Sm 2.53.9b1pre I can login by SASL _only_ by disabling it in cZ_sasl and enabling it in prefs. If I try to enable it in the plugin and disable it in the prefs (to keep it the way it used to work) I get interferences from the builtin code and login fails with "Invalid username or password". 22:41:23 tonymec|away I think this is expected if I understood IanN_Away right. 22:41:45 the plugin is not compatible. 22:42:08 tonymec|away: I've added a 22:42:11 oops 22:42:32 wrong button return instead of backspace 22:42:54 tonymec|away: i've added some patches that do allow a plugin to now be uninstalled 22:47:45 buc In general I am not fan of including unreviewed code. We have the unofficial versions for letting these bake until ready. 22:53:03 frg: Unreviewed by whom? 23:03:33 Either way, this is another kind of responsibility. 23:03:42 If our user uses the free Linux distro -- most likely he needs new features "as soon as possible", and he understands that the distro itself is "without a guarantee" and he is ready to make bug reports. Otherwise, he buys a commercial version (aka RHEL) for money, where everything will be rechecked in the most paranoid way. 23:14:28 So if you're selling a product for money (or planning to do so in the future), bury the change in your corporate graduation department. If it's a free product, it's not common practice to postpone user-friendly changes for no apparent reason. 23:18:41 Just need to decide whether it is a free product or not. 23:20:54 buc I am out if the corporate graduation department for 6 months now and don't miss it. It is just that we have a review process and the code you include may not be the final code. And even a free product needs organization. As usual this is not personal but we see differently here. 23:26:18 frg: "the code you include may not be the final code" -- It is OpenSource -- any code is THE final code for you as soon as it appears in your hands. IOW, it is your decision whether consider it as good and "final" (for your particular needs). 23:29:07 It may not the official final code. I can play with words all day long and don't get nowhere. :) 23:29:59 Everything that the upstream considers final and correct is only the opinion of specific (primary) developers. It is not a marketing policy towards consumers. :) 23:35:41 I'm just trying to explain why decisions, responsibilities, and downstream's points of view may differ from upstream ones. And this is a common practice (a lot of distro packages have backports from future versions). 23:38:40 buc I know. It is not a problem in this case but these are non final (by our definition) patches. It is a bit different if I am taking a patch from a future version or a draft for me. 23:42:47 Certainly I read the patches. A kind of mental test. :) Do not look like a draft. So I consider them quite ready (under my personal responsibility). 23:43:27 Anyway, such a backporting spoils nothing for an upstream. You can always say "use the official version from our site". 23:43:27 But someone will become a little bit happier due to the fact that the feature they need appeared a couple of months earlier. 23:46:16 (especially who do not have the possibility to donate to the project. ;) ) 23:51:47 buc It is not a problem with these but might be with others. When I do reviews in earnest I find problems despite running the version for some time. So does IanN and the others. The maybe rough ones are labeled WIP anyway and these are not.